2018 Bordeaux Futures

[Hacker]

Hi guys, thinking of dipping my toe in the waters of 2018 Bordeaux en primeur. Can you help me with names with pricing around $60-100pb preferably right bank. Previously (2005 to 2010) I concentrated on left bank, so I would like a little variety.
Any thoughts welcome.

[felixp21]

sorry to be negative, but I'd be pretty careful getting into 2018 futures. Although I haven't seen any yet, I'll be over there in a couple of months, but my sources definitely are very wary. Ordinary weather, extraordinary hype. 2017 was a massive failure en primeur, and the general feeling is that 2018 may well follow suit.
Anyway, I'll happily post when I have a look at them.

[mychurch]

I’d take a look at the Farr Vintners report. They may be one of the worlds biggest sellers of Bdx wine, but they are are not afraid of calling things as they see it - previous campaigns have been littered with advice to ignore certain wines. They, and many others, are always keen on the Durantou stable - Les Cruzelles, Petite Eglise, Le Chenade etc. I have drank cases of the Petite Eglise before and it can be silky smooth.

[mychurch]

As a footnote, i’d Be wary of buying any big name now En Primeur. On the right bank, the volumes for some wines are comparatively small, so in the old days it made sense to get in quick. Nowadays all the top houses seem to be be involved in price manipulation and it appears that they release just enough to cover costs and retain more and more for resell later. With the exception of 1 house, I have not taken part in En Primeur since 2010 and would only buy now if there was a new kid on the block that was on the way up.

[Hacker]

Thanks for the sage advice. I don’t think I am diving in soon based on your warnings. I seem to recall no real advantage in buying en Premeur over the last 5 to 7 years over the landed prices.

[Diddy]

I was also having a look because it's my little one's birth year.

For what it's worth, you can see all the critics' scores here:-

https://www.liv-ex.com/news-insights/bordeaux-2018-scores/

[cleanskinlover]

Here are some of the 2018 scores lifted from a well know retailer.

I'm probably going to go some Calon Segur and Batailley if they stay under $100

If your new to Bordeaux probably better picking up some 2015's or even sone 2014's that are already in the country.

James Molesworth, Wine Spectator" James Suckling Lisa Perrott-Brown, The Wine Adocate "Julia Harding, MW
Jancis Robinson" "Jane Anson,
Decanter"
CHATEAU MOUTON-ROTHSCHILD, 1er Cru Classe Aile D'Argent Blanc Bordeaux 94 93-94 93-95 17 93
CHATEAU CANON 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 96+ 96-99 98-99 97-99 17.5 97
VIEUX-CHATEAU-CERTAN Pomerol 100 99-100 97-100 18.5 99
CHATEAU AUSONE 1er grand cru classe (A) Saint-Emilion 99 99-100 98-100 17.5+ 98
CHATEAU CHEVAL BLANC 1er grand cru classe (A) Saint-Emilion 99 98-99 97-99 18.5 99
CHATEAU LAFITE-ROTHSCHILD 1er cru classe Pauillac 96+ 99-100 98-100 19 99
CHATEAU GRAND-PUY-LACOSTE 5me cru classe Pauillac 95 95-98 94-95 92-94 17.5 95
CHATEAU COS D'ESTOURNEL 2me cru classe Saint-Estephe 97 98-99 97-100 17.5 97
CHATEAU BEAUMONT Cru Bourgeois Haut Medoc 93+ 88-90 91
CHATEAU BEAUREGARD Pomerol 93 90-93 93-94 93-95 92
CHATEAU FIGEAC 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 99 97-100 98-99 97-99 18 98
CLOS FOURTET 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 98 96-99 96-97 95-97 16 97
CHATEAU PAVIE 1er grand cru classe (A) Saint-Emilion 98 96-99 98-99 97-100 17 96
CHATEAU LE TERTRE ROTEBOEUF Grand cru Saint-Emilion 97 17++
CHATEAU ANGELUS 1er grand cru classe (A) Saint-Emilion 96 95-98 99-100 97-100 17.5 98
CHATEAU PAVIE-MACQUIN 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 96 95-98 97-98 95-97 16.5 98
CHATEAU DUCRU-BEAUCAILLOU 2me cru classe Saint-Julien 98 96-99 98-99 97-99 17+ 97
CHATEAU LEOVILLE-LAS-CASES 2me cru classe Saint-Julien 97 97-100 99-100 98-100 18.5 98
CHATEAU PALMER 3me cru classe Margaux 100 97-100 94-95 97-99 18.5 99
CHATEAU CALON-SEGUR 3me cru classe Saint-Estephe 96 96-99 97-98 96-98 18 96
CHATEAU BARDE-HAUT Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 95 91-94 95-96 92-94 94
CHATEAU CANTEMERLE 5me cru classe Haut Medoc 94 87-90 94-95 86-88 15.5 92
CHATEAU MARGAUX 1er cru classe Margaux 97 99-100 97-100 18.5 98
CHATEAU CARBONNIEUX Rouge Cru Classes Pessac-Leognan 93 93-96 92-93 91-93 15.5 94
CHATEAU LES CARMES HAUT BRION Pessac-Leognan 91 95-98 97-98 94-96+ 16.5 98
CHATEAU PONTET-CANET 5me cru classe Pauillac 94+ 97-98 97-99 16.5 96
CHATEAU CERTAN-DE-MAY Pomerol 97 93-96 95-96 93-95 16.5+ 94
CHAPELLE D'AUSONE Grand cru Saint-Emilion 95 94-95 93-95 16.5+ 93
CLOS CANTENAC Grand Cru Saint-Emilion 95 89-90 91-93 93
CHATEAU MOUTON-ROTHSCHILD 1er cru classe Pauillac 99 100 97-99+ 18 99
CHATEAU CLIMENS 1er cru classe Sauternes Barsac 98?
CHATEAU CLINET Pomerol 93+ 95-96 94-96+ 16 97
CLOS DE L'ORATOIRE Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 95 94-97 94-95 16
LA CROIX DE BEAUCAILLOU Second wine of Chateau Ducru-Beaucaillou Saint-Julien 96 90-93 94-95 91-93 16+ 93
CLOS SAINT-MARTIN Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 95 93-96 93-94 89-91 93
CLOS L'EGLISE Pomerol 94 93-96 96-97 94-96 92
CHATEAU LA DOMINIQUE Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 95 91-94 95-96 90-92 17 94
CHATEAU LARCIS-DUCASSE Grand Cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 95 94-97 97-98 96-98 16.5 95
CHATEAU LA CONSEILLANTE Pomerol 98 97-98 96-98+ 97
CHATEAU MONTROSE 2me cru classe Saint-Estephe 95 98-99 96-98 18+ 97
CHATEAU COUTET 1er cru classe Sauternes Barsac 94 90-93 91-92
CHATEAU LEOVILLE-BARTON 2me cru classe Saint-Julien 96 96-99 95-96 94-96 17 96
CHATEAU LYNCH-BAGES 5me cru classe Pauillac 97 96-99 97-98 96-98 17 97
CHATEAU BRANE-CANTENAC 2me cru classe Cantenac-Margaux 96 95-96 92-94 16 95
LE PETIT CHEVAL Second wine of Chateau Cheval Blanc Saint-Emilion 95 93-94 93-95 17 92
CHATEAU DOISY-DAENE 2me cru classe Sauternes Barsac 93 89-92 93-94 97
CHATEAU DOISY-VEDRINES 2me cru classe Sauternes Barsac 94 89-92 89-90 95
DOMAINE DE CHEVALIER Rouge Grand cru classe Pessac-Leognan 94 94-97 99-100 94-96+ 17.5+ 96
CHATEAU DU DOMAINE DE L'EGLISE Pomerol 95 89-92 94-95 93
CHATEAU BEYCHEVELLE 4me cru classe Saint-Julien 95 94-97 93-94 94-96+ 16 94
CLOS DU MARQUIS Second wine of Chateau Leoville Las-Cases Saint-Julien 95 92-95 94-95 92-94 17 91
CHATEAU PICHON-LONGUEVILLE LALANDE 2me cru classe Pauillac 97 97-100 98-99 97-99 17.5 99
CHATEAU BATAILLEY 5me cru classe Pauillac 96 89-92 94-95 92-94 16 94
CARRUADES DE LAFITE Second wine of Chateau Lafite Pauillac 96 95-96 92-94 17.5 93
CHATEAU MONBOUSQUET Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 95 94-97 94-95 93-95 15.5 91
CHATEAU GAZIN Pomerol 96 93-96 94-95 91-93 15.5 92
CHATEAU D'ISSAN 3me cru classe Margaux 96 95-96 94-96 17 96
CHATEAU GRUAUD-LAROSE 2me cru classe Saint-Julien 95 95-96 95-97 16 94
LA DAME DE MONTROSE Second Wine of Chateau Montrose Saint-Estephe 94 95-96 90-92 17+ 91
CHATEAU D'ARMAILHAC 5me cru classe Pauillac 96 91-94 93-94 91-93 16.5+ 94
CHATEAU PICHON-LONGUEVILLE BARON 2me cru classe Pauillac 96 95-98 97-98 97-99 18 97
CHATEAU LAGRANGE 3me cru classe Saint-Julien 95 93-96 93-94 93-95+ 16.5 94
CHATEAU DUHART-MILON-ROTHSCHILD 4me cru classe Pauillac 95 90-93 95-96 93-95 17.5 95
CHATEAU HAUT-BAILLY Grand cru classe Pessac-Leognan 97 97-98 96-98+ 17.5 98
HAUT BAILLY II Second wine of Chateau Haut-Bailly Pessac-Leognan 94 93-94 91-93 16.5 92
CHATEAU HAUT BRION 1er cru classe Pessac-Leognan 96 98-99 97-99+ 18 98
CHATEAU HOSANNA Pomerol 93 95-98 95-96 95-97 17 93
CHATEAU GISCOURS 3me cru classe Margaux 96 93-96 96-97 90-92+ 17 95
CHATEAU L'EVANGILE Pomerol 98 98-99 97-99 17 97
DOMAINE DE L'AURAGE Castillon Cotes de Bordeaux 96 16.5
CHATEAU LA CROIX-DE-GAY Pomerol 95 92-95 92-93 91-93 16 90
CHATEAU LES-ORMES-DE-PEZ Cru bourgeois exceptionnel Saint-Estephe 94 90-93 93-94 90-92 16.5 93
CHATEAU PAVIE-DECESSE Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 95 95-98 97-98 96-98 16 94
CHATEAU LAFLEUR Pomerol 96+ 100 97-100 18.5 98
CHATEAU VALANDRAUD 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 95 96-99 97-98 95-97+ 16.5+ 96
CHATEAU LA MISSION-HAUT-BRION Cru classe Pessac-Leognan 96 97-98 98-100 17.5+ 97
CHATEAU MARQUIS DE TERME 4me cru classe Margaux 95 89-92 92-93 91-93 16.5 91
CHATEAU GRAND-PUY-DUCASSE 5me cru classe Pauillac 94+ 92-95 93-94 91-93 16.5 92
CHATEAU LAFAURIE-PEYRAGUEY 1er cru classe Sauternes Barsac 97 89-92 96-97 95
CHATEAU LAFLEUR-PETRUS Pomerol 100 96-99 97-98 94-96 17 96
MARQUIS DE CALON 2nd Wine of Chateau Calon-Segur Saint-Estephe 94 91-92 92-94 17 91
CHATEAU LEOVILLE-POYFERRE 2me cru classe Saint-Julien 95 95-98 97-98 94-96+ 17.5 97
CHATEAU LAGRANGE Pomerol 94 90-93 93-94 90-92 16.5 93
CHATEAU TALBOT 4me cru classe Saint-Julien 95 93-96 94-95 91-93 16.5+ 94
CHATEAU DU GLANA Saint-Julien 94 92-93 87-89 91
CHATEAU BEAUSEJOUR-DUFFAU-LAGAROSSE 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 94 95-98 99-100 95-97+ 15.5 99
CHATEAU BELAIR-MONANGE 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 94 96-99 98-99 97-99 17.5 97
PAVILLON ROUGE DU CHATEAU MARGAUX Second wine of Chateau Margaux Margaux 95 95-96 93-95 17 92
CHATEAU LATOUR-A-POMEROL Pomerol 96 93-96 94-95 93-95 16.5 94
CHATEAU LE BON PASTEUR Pomerol 95 93-96 96-97 92-94+ 15+ 91
CHATEAU BELLEVUE-MONDOTTE Saint-Emilion 94 93-96 96-97 95-97 16 92
CHATEAU LALANDE-BORIE Cru bourgeois Saint-Julien 94 90-93 92-93 88-90 16.5 90
CHATEAU BRANAIRE-DUCRU 4me cru classe Saint-Julien 93 94-97 95-96 92-94 16.5 93
CHATEAU GLORIA Cru bourgeois Saint-Julien 93 93-96 93-94 92-94 16.5 93
CHATEAU CLERC-MILON-ROTHSCHILD 5me cru classe Pauillac 94 93-96 95-96 93-95 17 96
LES PAGODES DE COS Second wine of Chateau Cos d'Estournel Saint-Estephe 94 94-95 93-95 17 92
CHATEAU PHELAN-SEGUR Cru bourgeois Saint-Estephe 94 90-93 95-96 93-95 17 94
CHATEAU HAUT-BATAILLEY 5me cru classe Pauillac 94 92-95 94-95 92-94 17 93
LES GRIFFONS DE PICHON BARON Second wine of Chateau Pichon Baron Pauillac 94 90-93 92-93 90-92+ 17.5 90
CHATEAU LYNCH-MOUSSAS 5me cru classe Pauillac 94 93-94 91-93+ 16 91
CHATEAU MALARTIC-LAGRAVIERE Rouge Cru classe Pessac-Leognan 93 92-95 93-94 92-94 16 95
CHATEAU PRIEURE-LICHINE 4me cru classe Margaux 95 89-92 93-94 91-93 17 94
CHATEAU RAUZAN-SEGLA 2me cru classe Margaux 95 96-99 99-100 97-99+ 16.5+ 97
CHATEAU TRONQUOY-LALANDE Cru bourgeois Saint-Estephe 94 91-92 93-95 17 93
CHATEAU CANTENAC-BROWN 3me cru classe Margaux 94 94-97 93-94 91-93 16 94
CHATEAU CANON-LA-GAFFELIERE 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 94 95-98 94-95 94-96 16.5 94
CHATEAU BEAU-SITE Grand bourgeois superieur Saint-Estephe 93 92-93 90
CHATEAU HAUT-BAGES-LIBERAL 5me cru classe Pauillac 93 96-97 15 92
CHATEAU OLIVIER Rouge Cru classe Pessac-Leognan 90 92-95 92-93 92-94 16.5+ 94
CHATEAU LAFON-ROCHET 4me cru classe Saint-Estephe 93 90-93 93-94 90-92+ 17 94
CHATEAU KIRWAN 3me cru classe Margaux 93 92-95 92-93 91-93 16.5 93
CHATEAU PAPE-CLEMENT Cru classe Pessac-Leognan 94 95-98 97-98 96-98 16.5 95
CHATEAU LAROQUE Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 94 92-95 93-94 95-97 93
CHATEAU QUINAULT L'ENCLOS Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 94 93-94 92-94 17.5 94
CHATEAU LASCOMBES 2me cru classe Margaux 93 93-96 94-95 92-94 15.5 92
LES PENSEES DE LAFLEUR, Second wine of Chateau Lafleur Pomerol 94 95-96 91-93 17.5 93
CHATEAU TERTRE DE LA MOULEYRE Grand Cru Saint-Emilion 94
CHATEAU LACOSTE-BORIE Pauillac 93 88-90 16.5 90
CHATEAU PETRUS Cru exceptionnel Pomerol 100 100 98-100 18.5 98
LES HAUTS DE LYNCH-MOUSSAS Pauillac 93 90-91 90
CHATEAU MOUTON-ROTHSCHILD, 1ER CRU CLASSE Le Petit Mouton Pauillac 93 91-94 97-98 92-94+ 16.5 92
RESERVE DE LA COMTESSE Second wine of Chateau Pichon-Longueville Lalande Pauillac 93 90-93 93-94 92-94+ 16.5 93
ECHO DE LYNCH BAGES Second Wine of Chateau Lynch-Bages Pauillac 92 89-92 93-94 90-92+ 16.5 92
CHATEAU MALESCOT-SAINT-EXUPERY 3me cru classe Margaux 92 93-96 97-98 94-96+ 16 93
CHATEAU PUYGUERAUD Francs - Cotes de Bordeaux 94 90-93 92-93 90-92 16 92
CHATEAU YON-FIGEAC Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 94 89-90 87-89 16.5 91
CHATEAU LABEGORCE Cru bourgeois Margaux 89 92-95 93-94 91-93+ 16+ 93
CHATEAU RIEUSSEC 1er cru classe Sauternes Barsac 95 93-94 94
CHATEAU ROC DE CAMBES Cotes de Bourg 96 16+
CHATEAU SERAPHINE Pomerol 95 92-94 16 92
CHATEAU SMITH-HAUT-LAFITTE Rouge Grand cru classe Pessac-Leognan 95 95-98 98-99 97-99+ 17 98
CHATEAU SUDUIRAUT 1er cru classe Sauternes Barsac 94 91-94 97-98 94
CHATEAU LANGOA-BARTON 3me cru classe Saint-Julien 93 93-96 93-94 92-94 16.5 93
CHATEAU BEAU-SEJOUR BECOT 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 93 96-99 95-96 95-97 95
CHATEAU BERLIQUET Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 93 91-94 94-95 93-95+ 16 93
CHATEAU COS D'ESTOURNEL Goulee Saint-Estephe 91 92-93 90-92 91
CHATEAU TROTANOY Pomerol 95 97-100 98-99 97-99+ 17.5 98
CHATEAU TROTTEVIEILLE 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 93 92-93 95
CHATEAU LA GAFFELIERE 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 92 94-97 95-96 94-96 96
LA MONDOTTE 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 96-99 97-98 16.5
CHATEAU PEBY FAUGERES Grand cru classe Saint-Emilion 98-99 95-97+ 16 91
CHATEAU LE GAY Pomerol 97-98 94-96 16 92
CHATEAU TROPLONG-MONDOT 1er grand cru classe (B) Saint-Emilion 97-98 93-95+ 17.5 97
ENCLOS TOURMALINE Pomerol 97-98 93-95
LE PIN Pomerol 98-99 97-99 18.5 98
CHATEAU SOCIANDO-MALLET Grand bourgeois Haut Medoc 92 90-93 94-95 16.5 94
CHATEAU L'EGLISE CLINET Pomerol 95-98 99-100 96-98 16.5 97

[phillisc]

Just out of interest CSL...if I was ever in the position to buy Bordeaux..Coonawarra and Yarra Valley will have to do for now.
What would it cost to buy one of each from your above list?

Cheers Craig

[cleanskinlover]

Just out of interest CSL...if I was ever in the position to buy Bordeaux..Coonawarra and Yarra Valley will have to do for now.
What would it cost to buy one of each from your above list?

Cheers Craig

Probably your soul and the respect of your peers!

[phillisc]

Just out of interest CSL...if I was ever in the position to buy Bordeaux..Coonawarra and Yarra Valley will have to do for now.
What would it cost to buy one of each from your above list?

Cheers Craig

Probably your soul and the respect of your peers!

Very good , suspect that my house and marriage may also be at risk
Cheers craig

[cleanskinlover]

Just out of interest CSL...if I was ever in the position to buy Bordeaux..Coonawarra and Yarra Valley will have to do for now.
What would it cost to buy one of each from your above list?

Cheers Craig

Probably your soul and the respect of your peers!

Very good , suspect that my house and marriage may also be at risk
Cheers craig

The top 9 bottles will run about $18,500.
Château Ausone
Château Cheval Blanc
Château Haut-Brion
Château Lafite Rothschild
Château Margaux
Château La Mission Haut-Brion
Château Mouton Rothschild
Petrus
Château d’Yquem

[mychurch]

You could trump this by pulling out the La Miss, HB, Yquem and Margaux and replacing them with Liber Pater, Le Pin, Haut Brion Blanc and Lafleur.

[Dragzworthy]

The other thing I've heard is some wines have a high alcohol percentage...so I'm a tad wary it could a vintage whereby some wines never come around with the fruit fading before they mature nicely. I'm a believer that the best Bordeaux is usually sub 13.5%
Having said all of this, I know I'll end up buying d'Issan to keep my silly vertical going ...

[cleanskinlover]

The other thing I've heard is some wines have a high alcohol percentage...so I'm a tad wary it could a vintage whereby some wines never come around with the fruit fading before they mature nicely. I'm a believer that the best Bordeaux is usually sub 13.5%
Having said all of this, I know I'll end up buying d'Issan to keep my silly vertical going ...

Here are the notes so far, looks good at 14% alc

James Suckling
95-96 The cashmere texture of the tannins is wonderful in this. They are ripe and precise. Dense at the same time, giving a slow drive and a long finish. Full-bodied with dark and pretty fruit. Persistent finish.
Lisa Perotti-Brown
94-96 The 2018 D'Issan is composed of 60% Cabernet Sauvignon and 40% Merlot, aging in 50% new and 50% second year barrels for an estimated 18 months. With 13.97% alcohol and a deep garnet-purple color, it features baked berries, warm cherries and cassis with spice box and fragrant earth plus tea hints. Medium to full-bodied, it has a great core of muscular fruit with firm, fine-grained tannins, with nice freshness, finishing layered with mineral notions.

Julia Harding for Janci Robinson
17 "60% Cabernet Sauvignon, 40% Merlot. 50% new barrels. Barrel sample.
Deep core and cherry rim, not quite as black-hearted as most Bordeaux 2018s. Intense ripe cassis that is pure Cabernet. Nicely savoury too. Chewy and quite oaky on the palate, the tannins thickened by the oak but very smooth. Dense and still fresh. Very good. (JH) 13.97%
Drink 2025-2035"

Jane Anson for Decanter
96 "This is a vibrant ruby colour, with floral aromatics that are even more evident on the nose here than with the second wine, Blason. This is not always the case during En Primeur tastings, when it's the second wines that tend to be a little more open, but it's a feature of the 2018 vintage.

This is a brilliant Issan with richness and poise joined by a delicate acidity that pulls the fruit along. The tannins are deceptive, as they are supple and appealing, but the density and power builds over the palate and clearly indicates long ageing. A wine that feels like it's rooted in its appellation. 50% new oak. 40hl/ha yield, with 53% of production going into this wine, higher than in both 2017 and 2016. Eric Boissenot consults.
Drinking Window 2027 - 2042"

[TiggerK]

Can be fun to see but I'm really not a fan of Bordeaux point scoring. IMHO it's far more important to taste as much as possible and find the house styles that suit your palate. The 'Parker' effect is fading in some ways, but still plenty of high octane stuff and crazy high prices. Not to mention the fact they are generally 20+ year prospects before showing properly and thus sometimes justifying their high prices.

P.S Don't most of the Bordeaux tasting notes all sound much the same?? Easy to call a critic Bingo!

[Mahmoud Ali]

Tigger, this is especially true since these are reviews based on barrel samples, early ones at that so not the final wine, or maybe even the final blend. However what I would like to know is which wines are made using reverse osmosis machines. Call me a luddite but I would much rather a wine nearer to natural than machine made.

[Craig(NZ)]

I'm too old. I'm still waiting for the 2005's to be ready

Pass

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm in the same boat Craig.

[felixp21]

I wouldn't go into Bordeaux futures unless I was under 40. Most decent vintages need at least 25 years to reach maturity, and drinking Bordeaux before full maturity is a bit of a waste IMO. 82, 09 and 15 are the three exceptions of great vintages drinking well early, but if you want to drink Bordeaux at less than 20 years of age, stick to lesser vintages like 04, 07 and 11.

[Dragzworthy]

I wouldn't go into Bordeaux futures unless I was under 40. Most decent vintages need at least 25 years to reach maturity, and drinking Bordeaux before full maturity is a bit of a waste IMO. 82, 09 and 15 are the three exceptions of great vintages drinking well early, but if you want to drink Bordeaux at less than 20 years of age, stick to lesser vintages like 04, 07 and 11.

How long do you think until the majority of 15s are in a good spot?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Not to be a smart Alec but 2015 plus a minimum of 20 years works out to 2035. In a good vintage, for early drinking, the best bet is to go with reputable cru bourgeois and minor chateaux. The big guns can drink well early on, during the first bloom of youth, but they often close down and get grumpy.

[felixp21]

Dragzworthy, the 15's are very similar in evolution to the 82's.
You can pretty well enjoy minor wines from now, the classified growths will be firing from age 10-12.
IMO, 2015 is pretty much the exact opposite to 2016, which will need 30 years to reach maturity. 2016 is another 2005 in the making, methinks.
Critics prefer 16 over 15 by a whisker, but for me, 15 is light years ahead, as I am not interested in cellaring new vintages for 30 years. If I was a 30 year old IT-Tech millionaire, I would jump on the 16's as they will be perfect for their retirement age.
Of course, the critics don't have to buy the wines, that is the big problem with the whole system.

[WAwineguy]

Those are pretty high scores for a vintage that seems to be predicted to be a "massive failure"!

[WAwineguy]

As a footnote, i’d Be wary of buying any big name now En Primeur. On the right bank, the volumes for some wines are comparatively small, so in the old days it made sense to get in quick. Nowadays all the top houses seem to be be involved in price manipulation and it appears that they release just enough to cover costs and retain more and more for resell later. With the exception of 1 house, I have not taken part in En Primeur since 2010 and would only buy now if there was a new kid on the block that was on the way up.

Best investment value in recent years has been the second wines of first growths, in particular Carruades de Lafite, Le Petit Mouton and Pavillon Rouge de Chateau Margaux. These wines have appreciated 50% - 100% in the last few years.

[Craig(NZ)]

As a footnote, i’d Be wary of buying any big name now En Primeur. On the right bank, the volumes for some wines are comparatively small, so in the old days it made sense to get in quick. Nowadays all the top houses seem to be be involved in price manipulation and it appears that they release just enough to cover costs and retain more and more for resell later. With the exception of 1 house, I have not taken part in En Primeur since 2010 and would only buy now if there was a new kid on the block that was on the way up.

Best investment value in recent years has been the second wines of first growths, in particular Carruades de Lafite, Le Petit Mouton and Pavillon Rouge de Chateau Margaux. These wines have appreciated 50% - 100% in the last few years.

I remember being able to buy 2000 Pavillion Rouge for $70. I was a genius and bought one bottle
#regret

[WAwineguy]

As a footnote, i’d Be wary of buying any big name now En Primeur. On the right bank, the volumes for some wines are comparatively small, so in the old days it made sense to get in quick. Nowadays all the top houses seem to be be involved in price manipulation and it appears that they release just enough to cover costs and retain more and more for resell later. With the exception of 1 house, I have not taken part in En Primeur since 2010 and would only buy now if there was a new kid on the block that was on the way up.

Best investment value in recent years has been the second wines of first growths, in particular Carruades de Lafite, Le Petit Mouton and Pavillon Rouge de Chateau Margaux. These wines have appreciated 50% - 100% in the last few years.

I remember being able to buy 2000 Pavillion Rouge for $70. I was a genius and bought one bottle
#regret

2016 Pavillon Rouge is now around 170 Euros market value, which after import into Australia equates to over $400.

[Craig(NZ)]

Best investment value in recent years has been the second wines of first growths, in particular Carruades de Lafite, Le Petit Mouton and Pavillon Rouge de Chateau Margaux. These wines have appreciated 50% - 100% in the last few years.

I remember being able to buy 2000 Pavillion Rouge for $70. I was a genius and bought one bottle
#regret

2016 Pavillon Rouge is now around 170 Euros market value, which after import into Australia equates to over $400.

Yes and the 2000 is one of the best. I have drunk my one bottle. It was sublime
Absolutely the deal that got away

[felixp21]

I've said this before, the 2000 Pavillon is as good as the grand Vin.
Different beasts, the Pavillon has an unusually high merlot content, so it actually has a bit of a right bank feel. Pontellier reckoned he made a mistake not adding more merlot to the GV blend, and when you taste the Pavillon, you can understand why!!!

If you want a really top class 2nd wine (without breaking the bank) Palmer's Alter Ego is usually a stunner, as good as the FG second wines, at about one third the price.
The other second wins I really enjoy are Moulin de Duhart and Duo de Conseillante.

[Craig(NZ)]

I've said this before, the 2000 Pavillon is as good as the grand Vin.
Different beasts, the Pavillon has an unusually high merlot content, so it actually has a bit of a right bank feel. Pontellier reckoned he made a mistake not adding more merlot to the GV blend, and when you taste the Pavillon, you can understand why!!!

If you want a really top class 2nd wine (without breaking the bank) Palmer's Alter Ego is usually a stunner, as good as the FG second wines, at about one third the price.
The other second wins I really enjoy are Moulin de Duhart and Duo de Conseillante.

Yeah 2nd wines more often than not I have found overpriced and disappointing (below the top dawg 5 of course where they are just overpriced). Granted there are quite a number I haven't tried, but been kicked in the nuts enough to be very gun shy now

[Dragzworthy]

Dragzworthy, the 15's are very similar in evolution to the 82's.
You can pretty well enjoy minor wines from now, the classified growths will be firing from age 10-12.
IMO, 2015 is pretty much the exact opposite to 2016, which will need 30 years to reach maturity. 2016 is another 2005 in the making, methinks.
Critics prefer 16 over 15 by a whisker, but for me, 15 is light years ahead, as I am not interested in cellaring new vintages for 30 years. If I was a 30 year old IT-Tech millionaire, I would jump on the 16's as they will be perfect for their retirement age.
Of course, the critics don't have to buy the wines, that is the big problem with the whole system.

Thanks felix, very insightful. I went very large on 2015 (>12 cases) so I have been a bit concerned I'll struggle to consume it all within its cellar life but it seems like it should be OK. 2016 I only bought about 3 cases from memory.
I dont have a lot of experience but I've found that the 'lesser' vintages (2003, 2008) have suited me just fine.