What unpopular (wine) opinions do you have?

[Mahmoud Ali]

I agree with Mahmoud.

Stemless glasses have their place...Not my preferred way to drink wine but good stemless are easier to transport and do the job...

Hallelujah !!

This makes my day!

https://youtu.be/6DwerC0Dbug

All in fun ............... Mahmoud.

[Mike Hawkins]

Rockford Sparkling Black ages very well.

I agree, older bottles (with a decent cork) are much better than younger bottles. But the corks are just too unreliable to keep them for too long.

I’ve had the arguement with Robert O’Callaghan about the corks they use. I’d hate to think how good Black Shiraz could be if it was sealed under crown seal. The impression I got is that Black Shiraz isn’t made to age, but it actually does in my experience.

Seppelt have sealed their Show Reserve Sparkling Shiraz that way for ages. Gerry (Gpk) bought a couple of mid 80’s Sepplets Sparkling Burgandies to a Brisbane offline a few years back under crown seal and they were amazing. Actually, amazing probably isn’t a strong enough word. I have sought out the Seppelt Show Reserve ever since. 20+ years and they are stunning.

Cheers
Ian

I’ve had the 86,90, 91 and 94 Seppelt SR in recent weeks and they were fantastic. The 07 was way too young and simple IMO

[n4sir]

As an occasional consumer, I hate the sales model (ie. mailing & waiting list method) of Wendouree and those that try and emulate it. I don't want to be stuck buying dozens of bottles of wine I don't want to remain on the list on the off chance that there's something I do want down the track.

The system over the years has also poisoned the secondary market - people buys dozens they don't want, weed it off to their friends who turf what bottles they don't want... by the time a bottle shows up at auction there's no way of knowing how many times it has been around the block before you get your hands on it.

Screwcaps have admittedly taken a bit of the heat out of that equation as the wines will be a lot more robust in regard to cellaring conditions and there should be no concern in regard to cork taint, but I would not even dare to think of risking buying any bottle of Wendouree pre-screwcap at auction - I have seen way too many dud bottles from others who took that unfortunate gamble.

[n4sir]

While I'm at it, here's another one I'm throwing into the Hornet's nest:

Double Decanting is an over-rated, antiquated practice that in almost all circumstances should be avoided (especially for old wines).

I hate it when so-called wine experts automatically double decant old wines without a second thought (or more specifically, no thought at all). Too many times I have seen a perfectly good wine (usually mine that I checked in advance) totally ruined by someone who think they are doing the right thing (usually against my protest) by a double decant. The usual reason is to remove the sediment - fine, if they want to do that, a single gentle decant should be enough, but a double decant back into the original bottle of an old wine for show purposes is just asking for trouble...

Case 1: I took my last bottle of 2002 Penfolds Cellar Reserve Grenache to Penfolds Magill Estate Kitchen at a BYO Sunday, the Sommelier (with an Italian background) said he would bring the bottle to the table after looking after it (which I assumed he meant just removing the cork and checking it was sound). He looked after it allright...

He brought it to the table for me to check the glass, said he had double decanted it and wanted to know if it needed another to give it more breathing time - needless to say the wine was completely oxidized and I was furious, Gordon Ramsay ape shit furious...

"ARE YOU F*CKING SERIOUS? THIS IS A F*CKING 15 YEAR OLD BAROSSA GRENACHE, NOT F*CKING BAROLO! YOU KILLED IT, YOU BURIED IT, YOU DANCED ON IT'S GRAVE, DUG IT UP, AND NOW YOU WANT TO KILL IT AGAIN?"

[img]https://i.imgur.com/0HoclM8.jpg[/img]

The damage had been done, nothing could be fixed and everyone could see how gutted and pissed off I was that something like this could happen at such a place. Obviously the staff applied the Max Schubert story of double decanting Grange automatically to every Penfolds red without even checking, regardless of how old and fragile the wine could be - you think they should know better...

The next time there I took my last bottle of 1996 Magill Estate Shiraz, and one of the senior cellar door staff suggested a double decant - this time I was on the lookout and politely said no way. It was opened and checked, was in perfect condition, and taken straight to the table. The wine was outstanding, senior staff who came over to try it remarked how fresh it and how good it was hours after it had been opened, especially compared to what they had tried at the recent clinics - also, after standing up overnight there was virtually no sediment in the wine, it was all stuck to the bottle and there was no need for a decant in the first place. Case closed.

Double decanting should only be applied to the youngest and most rebellious of wines where the nose is closed up tighter than a tadpole's asshole, or reeks of such heavily charred oak or sulphur that there's basically nothing to lose by giving it such a brutal rush of air to get it going. If you are remotely thinking of doing this with an old wine, try the damn thing first - if it's already good, leave it alone!

That said, I do like Jamie's idea of the half-decanter where half the wine is poured into a smaller vessel for assessment, if it is still closed and needs more air the remainder can be poured into a full sized decanter, you get the same effect but in a far more controlled/judged manner. The same can basically applied partway through a double decant process - try it when it is in decanter, if that's all it needs then don't risk the return to the washed bottle. It's much better than the pissing-in-the-wind approach of a brainless automatic double decant.

Rant over.
Ian

[michel]

While I'm at it, here's another one I'm throwing into the Hornet's nest:

Double Decanting is an over-rated, antiquated practice that in almost all circumstances should be avoided (especially for old wines).

I hate it when so-called wine experts automatically double decant old wines without a second thought (or more specifically, no thought at all). Too many times I have seen a perfectly good wine (usually mine that I checked in advance) totally ruined by someone who think they are doing the right thing (usually against my protest) by a double decant. The usual reason is to remove the sediment - fine, if they want to do that, a single gentle decant should be enough, but a double decant back into the original bottle of an old wine for show purposes is just asking for trouble...

Case 1: I took my last bottle of 2002 Penfolds Cellar Reserve Grenache to Penfolds Magill Estate Kitchen at a BYO Sunday, the Sommelier (with an Italian background) said he would bring the bottle to the table after looking after it (which I assumed he meant just removing the cork and checking it was sound). He looked after it allright...

He brought it to the table for me to check the glass, said he had double decanted it and wanted to know if it needed another to give it more breathing time - needless to say the wine was completely oxidized and I was furious, Gordon Ramsay ape shit furious...

"ARE YOU F*CKING SERIOUS? THIS IS A F*CKING 15 YEAR OLD BAROSSA GRENACHE, NOT F*CKING BAROLO! YOU KILLED IT, YOU BURIED IT, YOU DANCED ON IT'S GRAVE, DUG IT UP, AND NOW YOU WANT TO KILL IT AGAIN?"

[img]https://i.imgur.com/0HoclM8.jpg[/img]

The damage had been done, nothing could be fixed and everyone could see how gutted and pissed off I was that something like this could happen at such a place. Obviously the staff applied the Max Schubert story of double decanting Grange automatically to every Penfolds red without even checking, regardless of how old and fragile the wine could be - you think they should know better...

The next time there I took my last bottle of 1996 Magill Estate Shiraz, and one of the senior cellar door staff suggested a double decant - this time I was on the lookout and politely said no way. It was opened and checked, was in perfect condition, and taken straight to the table. The wine was outstanding, senior staff who came over to try it remarked how fresh it and how good it was hours after it had been opened, especially compared to what they had tried at the recent clinics - also, after standing up overnight there was virtually no sediment in the wine, it was all stuck to the bottle and there was no need for a decant in the first place. Case closed.

Double decanting should only be applied to the youngest and most rebellious of wines where the nose is closed up tighter than a tadpole's asshole, or reeks of such heavily charred oak or sulphur that there's basically nothing to lose by giving it such a brutal rush of air to get it going. If you are remotely thinking of doing this with an old wine, try the damn thing first - if it's already good, leave it alone!

That said, I do like Jamie's idea of the half-decanter where half the wine is poured into a smaller vessel for assessment, if it is still closed and needs more air the remainder can be poured into a full sized decanter, you get the same effect but in a far more controlled/judged manner. The same can basically applied partway through a double decant process - try it when it is in decanter, if that's all it needs then don't risk the return to the washed bottle. It's much better than the pissing-in-the-wind approach of a brainless automatic double decant.

Rant over.
Ian

Post of the year thus far
We hate crazy decanting

We operate a quarantine process & revisit the wine until ready

Love your work....

[tarija]

As an occasional consumer, I hate the sales model (ie. mailing & waiting list method) of Wendouree and those that try and emulate it. I don't want to be stuck buying dozens of bottles of wine I don't want to remain on the list on the off chance that there's something I do want down the track..

The Wendouree system is extremely fair, the wines are being sold for far below market value. Don't expect to be able to dip in and out at your discretion when the prices are so low.

If you want to cherry pick vintages or only want a couple of wines, drop off the mailing list and just buy at auction on the same year of release.

[phillisc]

As an occasional consumer, I hate the sales model (ie. mailing & waiting list method) of Wendouree and those that try and emulate it. I don't want to be stuck buying dozens of bottles of wine I don't want to remain on the list on the off chance that there's something I do want down the track..

The Wendouree system is extremely fair, the wines are being sold for far below market value. Don't expect to be able to dip in and out at your discretion when the prices are so low.

If you want to cherry pick vintages or only want a couple of wines, drop off the mailing list and just buy at auction on the same year of release.

I think they are a risk worth taking, not really a risk, all of the old ones I have looked at I have been pleased with. Its only the Shiraz that the flippers are interested in on the second hand market. Oddbins and Wickam's here in Adelaide see the blends with 10 years on them at $50-70...no profit there, but if cellared well, then a good buy.

Cheers craig

[n4sir]

As an occasional consumer, I hate the sales model (ie. mailing & waiting list method) of Wendouree and those that try and emulate it. I don't want to be stuck buying dozens of bottles of wine I don't want to remain on the list on the off chance that there's something I do want down the track..

The Wendouree system is extremely fair, the wines are being sold for far below market value. Don't expect to be able to dip in and out at your discretion when the prices are so low.

If you want to cherry pick vintages or only want a couple of wines, drop off the mailing list and just buy at auction on the same year of release.

An artificially high secondary market value because of limitation of supply.

Don't get me wrong, as an Accountant it's great for the winery, they get to sell everything every year, good vintage or bad, without having to run a cellar door or basically any promotional costs. As a wine lover It's great for the genuine fans on the mailing list with deep pockets who get the wines (as you say) at a discount compared to elsewhere...

It's also great for the flippers who use it as an income stream, sending their bottles to auction houses and retailers - there's so much of it that eventually that's where the big markup comes from. As I said, there's no way I would touch a bottle of Wendouree sealed under cork from auction and (in most cases) from retailers because they are most likely poisoned from all of the horse trading in between.

You don't have the chance to try anything before you buy either - again, the system adds to the horse trading from people buying their allocation, deciding they don't like it and then start offloading to the secondary market. As much as people love to bag Penfolds, at least you have the opportunity to actually try anything to determine if you like it before parting with your hard earned cash.

So you are stuck in a system buying up whatever the winery says they want you to buy (even from the shittiest of vintages) to remain on the list or else you will be downgraded or dropped off the list quicker than you can say "what the f...", or you take your chances paying way too much for a bottle at retail or on the auction market which has a better than average chance of being a dud.

As an occasional buyer who strictly buys something only after I try it, this is a system that I won't get into. I guess I am lucky that I have friends on the list where I could get hold of something if I really wanted it, but I am also conscious of others who don't have that option.

[phillisc]

Keep maintaining the rage Ian, I love it
At least that makes two of us.
I will stop buying Wendouree at the 2020 vintage.
32 vintages should see me out.

Cheers Craig

[JamieBahrain]

If Wendouree moved toward a Giaconda type system not much would change unless highly marketed? Secondary market pricing would be similar and the only losers the black crayon initials/ Xmas card punters. Though really, probably a good thing for me as I'd stop my habitual buying of these wines.

[JamieBahrain]

Decanting of Australian wines worthy of a different thread. I'm not so concerned about double decanting though happy to be corrected. Prolonged aeration a killer for "most" Aussies after x amount of years.

Just to reiterate this is not relevant to Barolo or Wendouree.

[WAwineguy]

I'd like to kill whoever decided to start drinking wine out of stemless glasses!!!

(Note for politically correct people: I don't really want to actually kill them, but you know what I mean).

Stemless glasses do not deserve wine to be poured into them

Stemless are good when you’re with a crowd that want to drink beer and you want to have a wine. You can sit with it in your hand and not look like a wa#ker.

I'd prefer to drink it out of the bottle then. At least you get all of it!

[phillisc]

If Wendouree moved toward a Giaconda type system not much would change unless highly marketed? Secondary market pricing would be similar and the only losers the black crayon initials/ Xmas card punters. Though really, probably a good thing for me as I'd stop my habitual buying of these wines.

Jamie, how about numbers on boxes or bottles, not hard to do if a winery can be bothered...or wants to.
That way those who actually want to buy the wines every year to drink are catered for and the flippers get the chop

Guess the annual thread won't be far way
Cheers craig

[Scotty vino]

If Wendouree moved toward a Giaconda type system not much would change unless highly marketed? Secondary market pricing would be similar and the only losers the black crayon initials/ Xmas card punters. Though really, probably a good thing for me as I'd stop my habitual buying of these wines.

Jamie, how about numbers on boxes or bottles, not hard to do if a winery can be bothered...or wants to.
That way those who actually want to buy the wines every year to drink are catered for and the flippers get the chop

Guess the annual thread won't be far way
Cheers craig

RFID tags.

[phillisc]

Very interesting indeed, RFID, learn something new everyday. The winery just needs to set up an arrangement with an auction house, no issue with selling the wines, just want to scan the bottles.
Could not imagine the look on the face of a flipper, when a two line hand written letter comes in the post from Tony..."you waited years to get on the mailer and to finally have an opportunity to purchase some of our wine, only then to flip it. We are now going to flip you."

Reminds me of that line in the Schwarzenegger film...you are erased.

Cheers craig

[sjw_11]

reminds me of that line in the Schwarzenegger film...you are erased.

Cheers craig

What happened to him?
"I let him go."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB6pvQt0I8s

[grhm1961]

I like stemless glasses (for outside use, after I've had a few). I double decant nearly all my wines (after blind taste testing proved to me the value of it), and I'm more than happy with Wendouree's mailing list system (I got on their list straight away by just asking nicely). I even like some (but not many) of Schwarzenegger's movies.

Life's kind of fun like that. It'd be pretty dull if we all agreed with each other all the time.

Cheers.

[Dragzworthy]

Controversial view on this forum but I don't mind the masses agreeing with me...

Penfolds make good wine..not all of it before the price but they are consistent and that should be rewarded and not bashed. I think St Henri and Bin 389 are worth the money. At the end of the day, how can one justify paying X for Burgundy/Rhone Y and say Bin 389 used to be 4x cheaper...? Inflation in Australia has been far higher than the Eurozone so it seems logical. I work in finance so I apologise to bring in these variables into our passion.

[brodie]

my three most unpopular wine opinions:

1. Wendouree is VERY over-rated.

2. 2005 Red Burgundy is over-rated

3. 2005 Red Bordeaux is over-rated.

yes, yes, I know. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Hi Felix, a quote from John Gilman for you....

"And, when I look back at my favorite Bordeaux vintages from yesteryear, it is the elegance of the top years that stands out for me, with years like 1953, 1961, 1966, 1970 and 1985 amongst my absolute favorite Bordeaux vintages because of their great sense of elegance and perfumed beauty. In this century, only 2005 comes to mind as a truly great year that is also a powerful year I am less sanguine today of how 2009 will turn out than I was back in the spring of 2010 tasting the wines, as they seem more overripe to me with each passing year, but they are still young and it is too early to judge with any hope of accuracy how they will eventually turn out. I have had severe doubts with 2010 since the get go and the few I have had to slog through in the last few years have certainly not dissuaded me from my present opinion of a vastly overrated vintage."

Cheers Brodie

[felixp21]

the fact that John Gilman said that strengthens my case.... easily the greatest nuffie in the wine world. A serious half-wit, and yes, I have met and tasted with him.
Interesting thread over on Cellartracker the other day..... 2005 Bordeaux showing badly. The tannin will win the battle in many left bank wines in 2005, just as they did in 1975 and 1986.

[felixp21]

but yes, I would love 2005 Bordeaux to be great (it already is on the right bank) as I still own quite a bit, but I certainly don't hold much hope, and each year that hope further fades.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I have a friend who double decants all the wine he brings over, once to separate the wine from the sediment, and a second time to refill the risnsed bottle. Never had a problem as far as I recall. Then again, I don't remember him ever serving an Australian wine never mind a Penfolds. In fact, over the years, I don't recall a single one of my wine friends ever serving me a Penfolds wine. Don't know why. One day I must ask.

Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

but yes, I would love 2005 Bordeaux to be great (it already is on the right bank) as I still own quite a bit, but I certainly don't hold much hope, and each year that hope further fades.

Felix:

So do you think 2005 Bordeaux will just never be great? Or just never be great in your lifetime?

I think 50-60 years from now 2005 Bordeaux will be considered great...It just won't be drinking great for a LONG time....

[felixp21]

I cannot recall a (modern) vintage that took 30-40 years to become drinkable that ended up being great.
Perhaps 1975 and 1986 are the two we can look back on, each taking 30+ years to get there. Both those vintages have magnificent wines, as 2005 will have, but the vast majority were simply "good" when they finally reached their plateau. (in the case of 1986, that is pretty much now for a lot of wines, such as PLL, HB, Lafite ) I have about three bottles of Pichon Lalande 86 left, having cellared since release, and the wine is now drinkable, but most certainly not a great PLL. Certainly not worth the very long wait!! That experience mirrors many for Cru Classe wines in 86.

The advantage 05 has over 86 is that the right bank wines are awesome, something RPJ had to totally back-track on in his 10 year tastings, having pronounced the St Emilion wines as pretty-much crap en primeur (horrible mistake, it was obvious they were always going to be fantastic)

I have been banging on about 2005 for more than a decade now, saying they are absurdly over-rated, which is kinda why my opinion is in this thread
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it is becoming cloudier by the year for the wines of the left bank in 05.... more and more tastings written up in the various forums are starting to see those fierce, and sometimes green, tannins winning the race with the fruit.

As for John Gilman and his "profound" 08's and his crap 2010's he is the Kane Cornes of the wine world. Sorry if you are not an AFL fan, but what i mean is, he says ridiculous things basically to attract attention, using the theory that any publicity is good publicity.... plenty of scribes doing exactly the same thing in all walks of life, polluting the internet with their utter garbage.

[phillisc]

Love it...great analogy.
Not only makes noise with the most inane comments and remarks, but will be desperate to keep a flame flickering over the next 5 months with no AFL to comment on
As a player...soft as butter, wide receiver, never went in for a hard ball, dinky little 25 metre sideways kicks
Still can't understand how he was gifted so many games.
At least his brother was a hard nut, much better mark, kick and player
Cheers Craig

[Polymer]

I cannot recall a (modern) vintage that took 30-40 years to become drinkable that ended up being great.
Perhaps 1975 and 1986 are the two we can look back on, each taking 30+ years to get there. Both those vintages have magnificent wines, as 2005 will have, but the vast majority were simply "good" when they finally reached their plateau.

I have been banging on about 2005 for more than a decade now, saying they are absurdly over-rated, which is kinda why my opinion is in this thread
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it is becoming cloudier by the year for the wines of the left bank in 05.... more and more tastings written up in the various forums are starting to see those fierce, and sometimes green, tannins winning the race with the fruit.

I think 86 will be a very good example....As you said, they're only starting to get there and maybe in another 20 years, they'll be great..

2005, I the wine quality is there...whether the tannins will ever get to a point where the wine is enjoyable..not sure....If I take the super cheaps in 2005, they are definitely much better wines than their price and history would indicate...you add that to what seems like great bones, great fruit, etc...and you have to think these wines will go 50+ years easily and unfortunately for us, that's probably when they're going to be great.....

So I agree with you...2005 is overrated from a drink now to anytime in the next 15 years..but who knows...

2005 Burgundy was pretty hard going as well..and undrinkable for the most part..but they're really coming around...

[Mahmoud Ali]

I've no experience with the '86 vintage since I haven't opened any of mine but I've heard that the '86 Rausan-Segla is an absolute delight, at least according to Tom Cannavan of Wine-pages. I remember his tasting note because I have a bottle of the wine.

Vintages are a mugs game. People seem to drift to excellent or classic vintages but these usually take time to come around, sometimes a very lomng time. My suggestion is to buy wines from good producers from good to average vintages, they will reward sooner rather than later. A recent positive note on a '91 Palmer is an indication of that. From my experience an '80 Lynch-Bages was an eye-opener.

If anyone has some '86 Bordeaux that they fear will almost never come around I can help out.

Mahmoud.,

[WAwineguy]

If Wendouree moved toward a Giaconda type system not much would change unless highly marketed? Secondary market pricing would be similar and the only losers the black crayon initials/ Xmas card punters. Though really, probably a good thing for me as I'd stop my habitual buying of these wines.

Jamie, how about numbers on boxes or bottles, not hard to do if a winery can be bothered...or wants to.
That way those who actually want to buy the wines every year to drink are catered for and the flippers get the chop

Guess the annual thread won't be far way
Cheers craig

RFID tags.

DRC do that - bottles are numbered and they take note of which ones turn up at auctions ---> then contact the negociant to ban the customer from future allocations!

[felixp21]

I cannot recall a (modern) vintage that took 30-40 years to become drinkable that ended up being great.
Perhaps 1975 and 1986 are the two we can look back on, each taking 30+ years to get there. Both those vintages have magnificent wines, as 2005 will have, but the vast majority were simply "good" when they finally reached their plateau.

I have been banging on about 2005 for more than a decade now, saying they are absurdly over-rated, which is kinda why my opinion is in this thread
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it is becoming cloudier by the year for the wines of the left bank in 05.... more and more tastings written up in the various forums are starting to see those fierce, and sometimes green, tannins winning the race with the fruit.

I think 86 will be a very good example....As you said, they're only starting to get there and maybe in another 20 years, they'll be great..

2005, I the wine quality is there...whether the tannins will ever get to a point where the wine is enjoyable..not sure....If I take the super cheaps in 2005, they are definitely much better wines than their price and history would indicate...you add that to what seems like great bones, great fruit, etc...and you have to think these wines will go 50+ years easily and unfortunately for us, that's probably when they're going to be great.....

So I agree with you...2005 is overrated from a drink now to anytime in the next 15 years..but who knows...

2005 Burgundy was pretty hard going as well..and undrinkable for the most part..but they're really coming around...

you know, you are spot on there, the 2005's from lesser regions and satellites are beautiful. History, however, judges a vintage on the Cru Classe wines, always have, always will. Plenty of great bargains amongst the 05 cheapies, and in places like HK, still can find plenty of bargains. Whilst i still think 09 and 15 produced better "cheap" Bordeaux, there is no denying that lots of low-end stuff out of Bordeaux in 05 is damn fine!!!!

[Mahmoud Ali]

Is it just me or does anybody else find it counter intuitive that a vintage may be excellent for minor chateaux but not the finer estates?

I'll leave it to Jancis Robinson to define the 2005 vintage for Bordeaux reds:

"Textbook perfection during the growing season in all respects other than price. Best kept for many a year. Quite marked tannins are too marked in some wines, notably the more modernistic St-Émilions, in which the then-prevailing fashion for extraction was taken to the limit."

Like in all vintages much depends on the wine making, and good wines can be overmade. Sometimes this holds true in weaker vintages where a light hand is needed and the reserve wines are given too much attention.

Mahmoud.

Edit: It would be just my luck that my only 2005 Bordeaux is a St-Emilion and liklely a modernist expression. Oh well, can't really complain since I got it at half price. Also, from what reviews are out there it isn't a tannic wine and probably needs to opened soon.