If you were starting your cellar again...

[Wayno]

I pretty much translate this as “how would I make my cellar better” as I’m pretty happy with it as it is -

Simple answer is more Italian wines.

[Con J]

I think some are missing the point of the title.

My cellar is for drinking, it's not an investment fund.

Cheers Con.

[phillisc]

I think some are missing the point of the title.

My cellar is for drinking, it's not an investment fund.

Cheers Con.

Very much so Con, but 20 odd years ago when there were a handful of wines that were appreciating faster than the next vintage and relative to the absolute shitty wages that I was on, it was 'difficult' to drink them. That said there were quite a few where I sold 2-3 bottles from a case that paid for the other 9-10.

But fast forward to 2019, every bottle that I now have will be drunk or given away

Cheers craig

[JamieBahrain]

I think some are missing the point of the title.

My cellar is for drinking, it's not an investment fund.

Cheers Con.

Hi Con,

That's true. Personally, I don't ever sell my wines. But these wines are often appreciating faster than those around them for good reason. Until they hit a level where you get the comments is Grange worth 10 bottles of xxx etc.

But in this example of if you could turn back time, its highly relevant. In the case of Italy I'm kicking myself as the top wines were undervalued and what I loved drinking most.


Funny enough I've a good friend from Trentino, selling his restaurant's cellar, in contact today and asking me if I could move these. And this is the cellar I should have structured year's ago- with many others of course.



Quintarelli Giuseppe
Amarone classico superiore
1993/1995

Gaja
2001/2003/1998/1999/2000/2000MAGNUM

Brovia
cà mia 1999
rocche 1998/2001/1999 MAGNUM 3LT
villero 1998/1999...1998MAGNUM 1999MAGNUM

Cavallotto
Riserva san Giuseppe
1999/2001/2000/1996MAGNUM
Riserva Vignaiolo
1998/2000/2001

Elvio Cogno
ravera
1997/1999/2000
vigna elena
1998

Conterno Aldo
cicala
2000MAGNUM
colonnello
1999
granbussia
1999/1997/1998/2000

Conterno Giacomo
cascina francia
1998/1999/2000/2001/2003
1998/1999/2000MAGNUM
monfortino
1993/1996/1997/1998/2000
1997MAGNUM

Massolino
vigna rionda riserva
1998/1999/2000
1997MAGNUM

Bartolo Mascarello
1996/1997/1998/2001 all MAGNUM
2003

Beppe Rinaldi
​brunate le coste
2003
cannubi/san lorenzo/ravera
2003

Other ones in random order:
​Pio Cesare
Renato Ratti
Vietti
Oddero Fratelli
Marchesi di Gresy

[Con J]

I think some are missing the point of the title.

My cellar is for drinking, it's not an investment fund.

Cheers Con.

Very much so Con, but 20 odd years ago when there were a handful of wines that were appreciating faster than the next vintage and relative to the absolute shitty wages that I was on, it was 'difficult' to drink them. That said there were quite a few where I sold 2-3 bottles from a case that paid for the other 9-10.

But fast forward to 2019, every bottle that I now have will be drunk or given away

Cheers craig

Hi Graig.

You bought those wines because you wanted them in your cellar and selling a few just helped with the cost, I would have done the same.

Yes circumstances were very different when I started getting into wine also. I’m sure I posted before that I was putting wine on layby at my local bottle shop back then.

Cheers Con.

[Con J]

Hi Jamie.

Maybe it’s just the words that bugs me “investment wines”. You also talk about 100k return on a 20K outlay.

I’ve always bought wine I want to drink and what I had access to not what they will be worth, I wish I had access and prices that you do overseas, lucky you . Like Malcolm said the market is very different here in OZ.

I’ve got a decent amount of top end wines but still I wish I had more like Conterno, Giacosa, Bartolo Mascarello, Rousseau, Dujac and so on but these have always been hard to get here and getting harder.

So even if I could turn back time I wouldn’t have access to change much.

Cheers Con.

[phillisc]

I think some are missing the point of the title.

My cellar is for drinking, it's not an investment fund.

Cheers Con.

Very much so Con, but 20 odd years ago when there were a handful of wines that were appreciating faster than the next vintage and relative to the absolute shitty wages that I was on, it was 'difficult' to drink them. That said there were quite a few where I sold 2-3 bottles from a case that paid for the other 9-10.

But fast forward to 2019, every bottle that I now have will be drunk or given away

Cheers craig

Hi Graig.

You bought those wines because you wanted them in your cellar and selling a few just helped with the cost, I would have done the same.

Yes circumstances were very different when I started getting into wine also. I’m sure I posted before that I was putting wine on layby at my local bottle shop back then.

Cheers Con.

Yes did the same myself, bottle shops in the 80s and 90s would hold stuff for weeks...not now.
I laugh at 82 JR at $11, again a 2 dozen purchase needed to be a lot more....still the current price of $500 at Wickham's makes me smile when I open the next one

There is a thread here somewhere on 82 first growths at Dans in Chapel St. selling for $100 and 10% off for a case.
I would have been about 20 years old at the time and had just started collecting wine, but only those with extremely deep pockets and exposure to fancy wines at dinner parties that the bank manager or local politician brought every Saturday night, as it was in my house growing up, would actually realise or know the potential of such wines.

Australia 35 years ago in terms of global thinking on wine was incredibly insular, the average punter who lived in Sydney drank Hunter, Melbourne central Victoria, Adelaide Barossa. In some respects it still is.

As Scotty V would say where's that bloody DeLorean

Cheers Craig

[JamieBahrain]

I was happy to buy the 82 JR at $500 for my HKG vertical but the provenance is a concern- if you go back 5 years + to the same vendor the subterranean provenance is a little damning with bad levels.

[JamieBahrain]

Hi Jamie.

Maybe it’s just the words that bugs me “investment wines”. You also talk about 100k return on a 20K outlay.

I think it's inescapable. "Blue chips" may be better but that's what they are and how they are traded. It's frustrating if you are a drinker only, and your favourite wines become traded commodities. That said, I'm more on the ball now. I'm pretty sure I know which of my favourite wines are going places and I buy them in 12's at least ( breaking a resolution ) or in a few cases multiples of 12's with magnums ( Cappellano, Mascarello, Rockford if a cracker-been awhile - etc).

The "100k return on 20k outlay" for Monfortino in my example could be considered from a number of ways. A 20K outlay on a spread or balanced cellar will probably have a cellar worth less in many example! Granted, there's the sheer pleasure of cellaring, but conversely, the appreciated cellar could be partially sold off and as some have indicated. I've enjoyed sharing some of these wines with friends who will never experience them.

[phillisc]

I was happy to buy the 82 JR at $500 for my HKG vertical but the provenance is a concern- if you go back 5 years + to the same vendor the subterranean provenance is a little damning with bad levels.

Jamie, agreed, hard to account for optimum storage history with a wine that was released in 1985, although the 8-10 bottles Mark currently has have good levels for their age.
Intrigued that this is a Coonawarra vendor, along with a heap of other treasury stuff being offloaded, surprised that Wynns/TWE aren't snapping these up for museum stocks. There was a fair bit of 82 made, however, nearly 4 decades on supply must be diminishing.

Cheers Craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

Seems like buying early and cellaring under known conditions is the best strategy.

[JamieBahrain]

Yes, that's one wonderful issue not expressed as far I recall. The joy of sound cellaring versus the expectation of an old label of unknown provenance and then the dread when you taste a cooked wine.

Another thing I'd change is more souvenir bottles. I've brought wines from holidays in far off and local wine regions and its wonderful to drink decades later with whomever accompanied you. Just finished three amazing bottles of Styrian sauvignon blanc from a 2009 visit ( vintage 2008 ).

[Polymer]

Seems like buying early and cellaring under known conditions is the best strategy.

nah

[Waiters Friend]

Seems like buying early and cellaring under known conditions is the best strategy.

nah

I'm with Mahmoud. Although it doesn't necessarily account for changing tastes over time, it does mean that you know the bottle you're opening will be the best it can be.

[Polymer]

Oh I'm sure there are many great examples of having cellared wine and it turned out great. Equally if not more examples of it not being worth it.

I'll state this again...if you have passive cellaring, it becomes a much better proposition..

When you have to pay for storage, unless your average bottle cost is significantly high, it really becomes questionable..and that assumes you actually still like the wine you bought...

Not saying to not cellar at all....but at the same time I don't think people really have a grasp on how much their storage costs are..they know how much they pay..they don't really equate that with what they're giving up in order to maintain that...For those that do, obviously that doesn't apply..

[JamieBahrain]

Staying on task I'd buy more magnums too. Abroad that is, where they are 2 x 750ml price not the Aussie practice of fleecing you.

I'll state this again...if you have passive cellaring, it becomes a much better proposition..

You have some interesting points though can you comment on passive versus perfectly controlled cellaring from extensive expereince? It's not a cost item it's a quality item. It goes beyond the discussion of a cellar structure. The difference is startling. The wines last much longer with a freshness at maturity and preservation of the fruit of youth driving higher levels of complexity.

Using your scenario as an example, 20 years ago I bought cases of Plantagenet Cabernet Sauvignon 1998 & 1999 for $20 a bottle. Professional cellaring costs me $1 a year per bottle. I could find this wine for under $30 on the secondary market probably, though the chances of it being professionally cellared are slim. So my pristinely kept bottle has cost $40 in the long run? Drinking the cases now they are completely different wines to the passive stored ones over a number of cellars ( I had a liquor license and sold the wine to friends ). Lots of baked and cooked plum notes though a Mt Macedon passive cellar the best- but nowhere near as good.

This is the low-end example IMO. Expensive bottles there's no argument- look at those 82 JR's discussed above.

[felixp21]

wow, $1 per bottle per year is incredibly cheap for a climate controlled cellar, even in Australia. Lucky you!! Costs are more like $2 a bottle in Melbourne.

[Ozzie W]

wow, $1 per bottle per year is incredibly cheap for a climate controlled cellar, even in Australia. Lucky you!! Costs are more like $2 a bottle in Melbourne.

Currently costing me $1.89 per year per bottle at Kennards, up from $1.52 in 2015.

[Polymer]

Staying on task I'd buy more magnums too. Abroad that is, where they are 2 x 750ml price not the Aussie practice of fleecing you.

I'll state this again...if you have passive cellaring, it becomes a much better proposition..

You have some interesting points though can you comment on passive versus perfectly controlled cellaring from extensive expereince? It's not a cost item it's a quality item. It goes beyond the discussion of a cellar structure. The difference is startling. The wines last much longer with a freshness at maturity and preservation of the fruit of youth driving higher levels of complexity.

Using your scenario as an example, 20 years ago I bought cases of Plantagenet Cabernet Sauvignon 1998 & 1999 for $20 a bottle. Professional cellaring costs me $1 a year per bottle. I could find this wine for under $30 on the secondary market probably, though the chances of it being professionally cellared are slim. So my pristinely kept bottle has cost $40 in the long run? Drinking the cases now they are completely different wines to the passive stored ones over a number of cellars ( I had a liquor license and sold the wine to friends ). Lots of baked and cooked plum notes though a Mt Macedon passive cellar the best- but nowhere near as good.

This is the low-end example IMO. Expensive bottles there's no argument- look at those 82 JR's discussed above.

I'm not talking about poor passive cellaring, I'm talking about good passive cellaring. Eg. I see them all over Europe where the passive cellaring is very good...But either way, the point of talking about passive cellaring is cost. If you can drop your average bottle price significantly, whether that is build your own cellar, have a passive cellar, live in a place where keeping a stable temperature is easy to do, or even if your off site storage costs are dirt cheap....It changes the conversation. But a normal cellaring situation where you're at a lot more than a dollar a bottle a year, it becomes incredibly expensive.

But using your example..20 years ago 20 AUD was not worth 20 AUD today...according to an inflation calculator is is 34. Plus the 20 dollars over the last 20 years...so lets just take half of that increase because of an average over 20...that's 7 (total of 27). That's 61 dollars it has cost you for that bottle...And that's with a dirt cheap storage cost...And that's assuming I even want to drink it now.

At Kennards Waterloo.
670 Cases is 6k a year. This is less than a dollar. It is also 8000 bottles of wine.
115 Cases is 3360 a year. That's about 2.5 dollars per bottle per year.

It is hard to take numbers because storage prices will increase over the years so 20 years ago it was probably cheaper than it was today and going forward it will increase as well. You also have variables in the number of bottles that you store..but as you get more the bigger your storage costs are but the better your average bottle price gets assuming you have a storage unit that fits what you need....

At the high end though..depends on what you mean..if you're taking the explosion in wine prices into account yes, it was a good idea to store wine...as long as you picked the right kinds of wine...but will that be the case going forward? Maybe..maybe not. The Internet has played a huge role in the explosion of prices because information and accessibility has increased dramatically...We don't know what wine prices will do. Let's be honest, if we knew what wine prices were going to do from 20 years ago, you should be a billionaire right? Because you would've bought as much as you can get of whatever you can get..But I can say that about lots of things....Or how about this, how many people are taking a bath by having bought a ton of bordeaux in the last 10 years? 2005 was the last one where you would've done well...2009 you might done ok if you were in with some wines at EP prices...every other year since 2005? Blood bath...

We can all point to Burgundy and say we would've made a killing..and yes, I would love to have a ton of older Burgundy....and I'm sure we all wish we had bet the farm on it...but we most likely didn't. And yes, it may still continue getting sillier and sillier...or it may not...

Anyways...I've said this in another thread..but I'm just saying that the cost of cellaring is more significant than most people think and why it would end up better for many people to consider cellaring less and using that money they would've spent on storage on something else...like a trophy wine...Going to 72 cases a year, for example, saves you 1100 a year...1100 can get you a nice bottle or two. That's the tradeoff and ultimately would you rather have 2 bottles of Grange per year or some nice Rousseau or nice Giacosa...or have some cases of 98 Platagenet and similar...That's just the difference in storage cost..it doesn't include the actual costs of having bought the wine to cellar...

And if someone says they've given it a lot of thought and feel those numbers are justified....Your own judgement for storage is your own...but how often do you hear about people not having enough storage space? Having to upgrade their offsite...having to add a 2nd locker, etc, etc, it is because we buy more wine than we need and buy a lot of stuff to cellar that honestly, just doesn't make sense to do so...If someone out there only wants wine in a certain 'sweet spot' then obviously for them, there is a need to buy and cellar because lets say they hate young wine...well that's just the cost they have to have exactly what they want..but even then, I'd probably consider a mix of stored and secondary market which should be a better mix of cost effiency/quality and still achieve what you're looking for plus more.

[Ian S]

wow, $1 per bottle per year is incredibly cheap for a climate controlled cellar, even in Australia. Lucky you!! Costs are more like $2 a bottle in Melbourne.

Currently costing me $1.89 per year per bottle at Kennards, up from $1.52 in 2015.

With our climate, they pay us for climate controlled cellaring

[JamieBahrain]

I'm not talking about poor passive cellaring, I'm talking about good passive cellaring. Eg. I see them all over Europe where the passive cellaring is very good...

For me your points are interesting but in the end fairly moot. I don't believe in passive cellaring in Australia. I'm not sure Europe relevant to this discussion?

When I started cellaring cork sealed wines 30 years ago some advice from a Halliday book was the basis of my professional cellaring decision. Worthwhile passive cellaring is only likely to be achievable in Tasmania ( or Tasmanian like as a passive Mt Macedon cellar I've noted success ). Looking at the recent lots on Wickmans of a passive subterranean cellar going back to the 70's the ullage levels have left the collection in ruins beyond a certain period.

But the cost of professional cellaring is a major factor and I agree with some of your costs analysis. And this is how I approached this thread's question. That being, I'd be buying wines that I liked, buying well to offset storage costs, and buying wines I liked that would be scarce in the future. Picking winners hasn't been too difficult either !

Yesterday I bought single vineyard Cru's from a Barolo producer, pre-arrival, from a vintage that's looking good. The producer is kicking goals in wine quality from a pretty good base and though under the radar, demand is picking up. From where I'm sitting, the region is not far from break-out pricing. That said, these 24 bottles will be double + to obtain in retail within a few years and this is on the basis of previous great vintages.

[Polymer]

For me your points are interesting but in the end fairly moot. I don't believe in passive cellaring in Australia.I'm not sure Europe relevant to this discussion?

I'm saying IF you have passive cellaring then the equation to cellar is DIFFERENT. It is not the argument but merely the caveat to the argument...If anything you arguing you need to pay for perfect off site is only making my point.

Yesterday I bought single vineyard Cru's from a Barolo producer, pre-arrival, from a vintage that's looking good. The producer is kicking goals in wine quality from a pretty good base and though under the radar, demand is picking up. From where I'm sitting, the region is . not far from break-out pricing so these 24 bottles will be double + to obtain in retail within a few years.

And yet you can buy high quality VERY old Barolo from great vintages and producers for pretty cheaply...From cellars in Piedmont...Yes some will be gone..but that can't be helped...the Internet helps make these types of things so much more accessible. It also makes these wines accessible from other countries because I see them make their way overseas all of the time (Maybe less so Australia).

BTW, I'm not disagreeing with your point...I think good Barolo is still a really good buy and will likely be more expensive in the future..but we've been saying that for 10+ years.

So are you saying your strategy has shifted to just wines you feel will increase in the next decade or so? So Barolo but not more Plantagenet? Does that mean you've stopped buying wines like Plantagenet or just not buying more than what you'd probably regularly consume? I think that's a good way to go from a "try to beat the house" type of thing although it feels more like speculation...but at least that taking the costs into consideration and deciding what is appropriate and what is not...it isn't just a simple cellar everything and I think that's the point. Which isn't to not cellar it is just to think about the actual costs that it takes you to cellar and really think about whether these wines are worth it in the end..and I think the math shows that it generally is not for most wines...but definitely worth it for others..

[JamieBahrain]

Well I'm left a little confused there but OK, I agree passive cellaring is very cheap, though not a sensible personal option in Australia. It's also expensive and if you CAN buy well cellared wines in the future from the secondary market you will be financially better off.

Barolo has already moved significantly. There are few bargains in the region and restaurant lists are drying up. Museum stock is mostly gone.

Yes, as per the thread, my cellar will have far more wines that I can buy very well now that will be unaffordable to me at maturation. This isn't speculation it's common sense. As a collector, I make great efforts to buy well to offset cellaring costs.

I will buy less wines ( Plantagenet for example ) which can be obtained freely at maturation from good provenance. This was not an option prior as auction houses were a lottery though now I'm supporting auction houses that do their best to document provenance ( Wickmans ). Well cellared Australian wines turn up abroad too.

Screw-caps for Australian wines is an interesting development too. With arguments supporting their better durability to warmer cellaring.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm reminded of the apocryphal story of the man who walks into a Rolls Royce dealership and when he asked the salesman about the mileage he can expect from the Rolls was told that if he needed to know the fuel rating then he likely couldn't afford a Rolls Royce.

The cellaring and drinking of fine wine can be an expensive hobby and nobody is being forced. It is a voluntary activity freely undertaken by those who choose to do so. It is absurdly condescending to keep hearing people go on about how adults who chose to spend their money in thsi way are somehow unwitting dupes and need lessons on accounting and forensic economic analysis about the future value of their wines.

Now, on the cellaring front, it is perfectly fine to buy limited production wines or those that may appreciate in value sometime in the future. However it is folly to state that wines are not worth the cost of cellaring merely based on their future market value. As we all know wine pricing is extremely variable, with some wines being able to command keen prices based on reputation, scarcity, perceived quality, and marketing. It is easy to predict that a good Bordeaux or Burgundy will likely be worth more in future. Not so with a Chianti Riserva. However it is entirely possible that a well made cellaring style Chianti Riserva may one day be better than a similar Bordeaux or Burgundy. At that point it does not matter what the past or present cost of the wine is relative to the cost of storage. For the accountant, the $50 Bordeaux that now sells for $150 is the wise investment. For the wine lover the $20 Chianti Riserva that still sells for the same price but is drinking superbly is the wise investment. The accountant thinks he should have bought more of that $50 Bordeaux because it looks good on paper but the wine fancier wishes he or she had bought more of that "cheap" Chianti.

There are plenty of examples of good, cellar-worthy wines that are still selling at pretty much the same price if not a little more. There is no reason not to cellar these wines merely because they will not go up in price.

Yesterday as I was going through some wines in my cellar I came across some 1998 Salice Salentinos Riservas that I had kind of forgotten about. Well in truth not the wines itself but the vintage - I hadn't realized they were as old as '98s. It makes no difference what I paid for these wines nor that the current vintage likely costs the same. They are 20 year old wines and cellared in reasonably good conditions. When I taste them there will be no caveats and I will be able to have a representative experience upon which to satisfy my curiosity and learn from the experience. And yes, it may well be possible that may be drinking better or worse than some of my other 1998s that were more expensive.

Take your pick, wine lover or accountant.

Cheers ................... Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

Barolo has already moved significantly. There are few bargains in the region and restaurant lists are drying up. Museum stock is mostly gone.

You can still find lots of older stuff on the secondary market. Cheapest in IT/CH but not that hard to get in the US and rest of Europe. In Australia? Probably not..but you can arrange to get these when going overseas so it isn't impossible. Either way, I think Barolo is still a good buy. But in relative terms, the older stuff is a better buy or at least more immediately gratifying.

Yes, as per the thread, my cellar will have far more wines that I can buy very well now that will be unaffordable to me at maturation. This isn't speculation it's common sense. As a collector, I make great efforts to buy well to offset cellaring costs.

Agreed. Cellaring wines that are worth cellaring vs. ones that are not.

I will buy less wines ( Plantagenet for example ) which can be obtained freely at maturation from good provenance. This was not an option prior as auction houses were a lottery though now I'm supporting auction houses that do their best to document provenance ( Wickmans ). Well cellared Australian wines turn up abroad too.

Yeap...exactly my point. Just not worth it to buy wines that are good but not great for cellaring. The Australian auction market is so good for wine, especially for that middle (for wine geeks) range of maybe 20-80 dollars...it just makes these wine less attractive to buy (especially not in any sort of quantity) and then cellar it forever.. It isn't that having that perfectly cellared wine isn't great..it is. But the opportunity costs you gave up to cellar a very middling wine when you can get that middling wine for less (maybe even half) that has an 80-90% chance of being great, it just doesn't seem worth it...or maybe I should say it isn't worth it to me - This isn't coming from just numbers...I see plenty of wines I have cellared and have to wonder why I bothered. They're good wines too but definitely weren't worth putting away. They take up space, add to my costs and in the end, I could've picked them up for less than my total cost or in some cases less than what I paid originally...

[Polymer]

I'm reminded of the apocryphal story of the man who walks into a Rolls Royce dealership and when he asked the salesman about the mileage he can expect from the Rolls was told that if he needed to know the fuel rating then he likely couldn't afford a Rolls Royce.

And this is true. If you're buying the Rolls Royce or Ferrari of Wines...then you don't care about storage costs (and I actually said that long time ago).
But you're not (from what I've seen) and I'm not and most people on here are not buying the equivalent of wine. For those on here that drink 3 figure wines for their daily drinker and buy multiples of 4 figure wines on a regular basis, they don't care about this. We (you and I and most people on here) regularly buy and drink the Toyota of wines..maybe the Lexus of wines...We're not drinking the Yugo of wines but we're certainly not at the point where the little things are just a rounding error.

The cellaring and drinking of fine wine can be an expensive hobby and nobody is being forced. It is a voluntary activity freely undertaken by those who choose to do so. It is absurdly condescending to keep hearing people go on about how adults who chose to spend their money in thsi way are somehow unwitting dupes and need lessons on accounting and forensic economic analysis about the future value of their wines.

I am not telling people how to spend their money. I'm showing them what the opportunity costs are..and if you think everyone understands what those were, you're wrong. If you have then there is nothing to be offended about but honestly, the way you've responded it is like saying "what difference does it make what the numbers say?" which means you haven't thought about it to that level..and most people haven't, including myself before.

What I'm talking about is an alternative backed by information and data...people can choose to agree or not to agree.

[JamieBahrain]

Barolo has already moved significantly. There are few bargains in the region and restaurant lists are drying up. Museum stock is mostly gone.

You can still find lots of older stuff on the secondary market. Cheapest in IT/CH but not that hard to get in the US and rest of Europe. In Australia? Probably not..but you can arrange to get these when going overseas so it isn't impossible. Either way, I think Barolo is still a good buy. But in relative terms, the older stuff is a better buy or at least more immediately gratifying.

I'm sorry to the OP for the thread drift but just a few pointers here.

Piedmont is a different region, style and market to the older wines you refer to - which are still rapidly appreciating.

One factor that is driving the advancement and popularity of the region is the quantum leap in vineyard care and winemaking ( approachability and fruit purity ). The "older stuff" and I've drank most of it, is a different style and proposition to what we are seeing now - even with traditional producers. The "older stuff' is also a considerable provenance risk.

Wines from just a few vintages ago, well bought, have tended to be available now retail, at double to triple original prices. People may lay doubt to the price appreciation of the region but it has happened for select producers dramatically and less visibly with lesser known.

But back to topic, it was pretty obvious and not speculation, $60 AUD for 2010 Cappellano & Mascarello wasn't going to last with high profile, emerging interest in the region. Stock up on your favourites that you want to drink and show off to friends if appreciation that obvious. So that is a strategy I'd be using to more effect if I could turn back time.

[Ian S]

Hi Jamie
I'm sure you mean 'share and enjoy with' rather than 'show off to'
Regards
Ian

[phillisc]

Much much more Marius

Cheers craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm reminded of the apocryphal story of the man who walks into a Rolls Royce dealership and when he asked the salesman about the mileage he can expect from the Rolls was told that if he needed to know the fuel rating then he likely couldn't afford a Rolls Royce.

And this is true. If you're buying the Rolls Royce or Ferrari of Wines...then you don't care about storage costs (and I actually said that long time ago).
But you're not (from what I've seen) and I'm not and most people on here are not buying the equivalent of wine. For those on here that drink 3 figure wines for their daily drinker and buy multiples of 4 figure wines on a regular basis, they don't care about this. We (you and I and most people on here) regularly buy and drink the Toyota of wines..maybe the Lexus of wines...We're not drinking the Yugo of wines but we're certainly not at the point where the little things are just a rounding error.

The point of the story was affordability, not being so rich as to not care. Wine is no different really. Cellaring is about buying more wine that you need to drink and to pay for the storage. Each person can decide for themselves if they want to do it.

The cellaring and drinking of fine wine can be an expensive hobby and nobody is being forced. It is a voluntary activity freely undertaken by those who choose to do so. It is absurdly condescending to keep hearing people go on about how adults who chose to spend their money in thsi way are somehow unwitting dupes and need lessons on accounting and forensic economic analysis about the future value of their wines.

I am not telling people how to spend their money. I'm showing them what the opportunity costs are..and if you think everyone understands what those were, you're wrong. If you have then there is nothing to be offended about but honestly, the way you've responded it is like saying "what difference does it make what the numbers say?" which means you haven't thought about it to that level..and most people haven't, including myself before.

What I'm talking about is an alternative backed by information and data...people can choose to agree or not to agree.

You are not telling people how to spend their money, I never said that you did. What you are saying is that people don't understand what it costs, therby implying that had they known they would not choose to cellar wines. That is an arrogance that you continue to display. I'm sure everyone on this forum knows how much they spend on wine, after all the cost of wines in not a small part of the discussion here. They also know what they spend on cellaring because it is a monthly fee. What you insist on repeating is that people would be making different decisions if only they would listen to you and do otherwise. Indeed, you are suggesting that that people should reconsider their spending on cellaring.

Perhaps the most galling thing to me is your idea that, once a person decides to cellar wine, he/she should use cost factors, present and future, to figure out which wine is "worth" cellaring. A person should cellar the wine they want to drink - period. The fact that a wine has limited availability or might increase in value is most certainly an added incentive. It makes no difference if the cellared wine cost $10 or $100. There is no point cellaring a wine you don't want to drink no matter how limited the bottling or much it will appreciate in value unless you are in it for an investment and plan to sell it for profit. In that case you can lump your calculations and costs along with pork belly and gold futures.

Mahmoud.