Mahmoud Ali wrote:I want to pick up on your comment about wine collector generosity. In addition to the genuine pleasure they get sharing expensive and rare wines, another aspect to this is what they originally paid for these wines. While it is true that these wines may now cost a lot more to replace, in general wine collectors tend to think about their contribution in light of what they paid for it, not it's replacement value. It is not that they do not appreciate the value of their contribution but a wine from the cellar is a sunk cost while procuring the same bottle is a matter of discretionary spending. My sentiment when it comes to wine is don't look at what it is worth now, think about how cheaply you get to drink the stuff.
+1
This is particularly true for offlines. I've had the privilege of tasting many wines I would never get the chance to try otherwise, e.g. Rousseau Grand Cru, Salon Champagne. I can't think of any other endeavors where a group of people who are passionate about something are so generous.
Mahmoud, surely the current pricing will at some stage become relevant. At what pricepoint is up to the individual. I bought two bottles of Rousseau Chambertin 1996 about 15 years ago at around $300 each. I shared one bottle with friends a few years later, and recently checked on the Langtons website for current value. My remaining bottle would fetch north of $2000 now. I just can't justify that level of indulgence in the present climate. Felix/Nick, if you are reading this I know what you will say, 'hang on to that bottle and it will be worth five times that in a few years'. Noted in advance.
Mahmoud Ali wrote:I want to pick up on your comment about wine collector generosity. In addition to the genuine pleasure they get sharing expensive and rare wines, another aspect to this is what they originally paid for these wines. While it is true that these wines may now cost a lot more to replace, in general wine collectors tend to think about their contribution in light of what they paid for it, not it's replacement value. It is not that they do not appreciate the value of their contribution but a wine from the cellar is a sunk cost while procuring the same bottle is a matter of discretionary spending. My sentiment when it comes to wine is don't look at what it is worth now, think about how cheaply you get to drink the stuff.
+1
This is particularly true for offlines. I've had the privilege of tasting many wines I would never get the chance to try otherwise, e.g. Rousseau Grand Cru, Salon Champagne. I can't think of any other endeavors where a group of people who are passionate about something are so generous.
Couldnt agree more Ozzie! The offlines I have attended have been some of the most generous and enthralling wine experiences
I have ever had. I know I would NEVER be in the position to have some of these wines myself outside the offline, and am truly humbled (and inspired) by what people bring.
What's the plan then? Sell the Rousseau? Wait for it to go up to a target price? Or drink it one day when you're feeling a little more affluent?
Don't forget, you can't take it with you! I've got a few 'special' bottles that I can't afford to replace, and a few of them are probably at their peak or maybe even just getting past it. I've made a note to start drinking them this year, provided I can get together a few people who will appreciate them!
I appreciate all of the advice - particularly the "drink it rather than hoard it message." At this stage of my collecting adventure I am aiming to have at least 5 years on all of my new release purchases, particularly the Australian Shiraz, Cabernets, Pinot Noirs, Semillons and Reisling that I have purchased that are in the $30 - $90 range. After that they are all fair game, but many may last 10 years or so. I figure that for most this will at least get the wines past being painfully young as some have described the issue.
As for my "trophies" as some have referred to them, I aim to have a least 10 years of age on them before I consume them. These are the Mt Mary Quintets, Mt Edelstones, Grosset PH etc. Most of these will be fair game after 10 years but many may last longer.
As for ongoing purchasing I can only budget for 1 or 2 bottles to collect for every dozen that I buy to consume now. So whilst I would like to buy some multiples - often the multiples will be across a number of vintages. For example I just placed an order for a case from Deep Woods Estate. Most of the order was to consume now and was mix of whites and reds ranging from $12.50 per bottle to $25 bottle. I purchased 1 bottle of their Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon to cellar as that was the limit of my budget. I placed a similar order last year. As such I'll have a 2015 and 2016 Deep Woods Reserve Cab Sav in my collection.
Some of you may disagree with the above lack of patience on my part, however my strategy at this point reflects my desire to broaden my experience within my budgetary constraints... if that means that I drink a broader range of wines but have a few "I wish I had another one of these" or "I wish I had left that bottle for longer" type experiences... then so be it.
What's the plan then? Sell the Rousseau? Wait for it to go up to a target price? Or drink it one day when you're feeling a little more affluent?
Don't forget, you can't take it with you! I've got a few 'special' bottles that I can't afford to replace, and a few of them are probably at their peak or maybe even just getting past it. I've made a note to start drinking them this year, provided I can get together a few people who will appreciate them!
To be honest I'm not sure. I have three grown up children who occasionally need financial help, and we do what we can, so large $$ amounts such as what I mentioned would go a long way with them. I'll get back to you.
Hacker wrote:Mahmoud, surely the current pricing will at some stage become relevant. At what pricepoint is up to the individual. I bought two bottles of Rousseau Chambertin 1996 about 15 years ago at around $300 each. I shared one bottle with friends a few years later, and recently checked on the Langtons website for current value. My remaining bottle would fetch north of $2000 now. I just can't justify that level of indulgence in the present climate. Felix/Nick, if you are reading this I know what you will say, 'hang on to that bottle and it will be worth five times that in a few years'. Noted in advance.
With that kind of increase in the Rousseau it's no wonder you might be tempted to sell. That is serious money and few people could resist selling. However, I suspect these kind of wines make up only a small part of the majority of wine collectors. If you ever decide to sell at least you have the comfort of knowing that you drank a bottle. In my case I have only one bottle that has shown a similar kind of increase, and that is the 1983 Chateau Margaux. Not having had it before, and not likely to have it served to me, I'm going to drink it with the satisfaction of having only paid $75 for it.
Be careful filling the cellar too quickly. I put away too much wine that I now dont like. I feel like I am weeding 100 or so bottles out that are ok but not exciting. All the exciting bottles Im trying to keep my hands off.
Write names on random bottles to remember occasions. I got gifted a bottle from a mate for being the Godfather to his son. I have written this down on the bottle and stored it away. I will surprise him in 10yrs and we will drink it togethor.
Pinot. Pinot. Pinot. Put some Pinot away. I went icon chasing early and like others I probably have too much Shiraz and Cab. Now Im chasing more boutiques. I am also drinking more Pinot than I have cellared.
michel wrote:Pretty sure I saw a Rousseau 2015 beze at Langtons recent auctions- 3000 DOLLARS
I've enjoyed my Rousseau experiences over the years but I drew the line at $500 a bottle. Must have ben awhile ago although I do no the Hong Kong importer and he was very generous.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
I'm getting warm and fuzzy over the sharing is caring thing but don't forget to pay yourself!
I've drunk great wine solo. Watching the football after a gruelling work week and watching a 1990 Old Block , that I bought when starting out like you now, and drool as it evolve over the quarters.
Not everyone is going to be moved by what you enjoy most. Sometimes its a little devastating when you share with the wrong crowd- and that can even be a wine knowledgeable crowd who sometimes take their contribution as personally as the winemaker or are overly focused on their own passions ( Burg nerds can be annoying in HKG ).
Salute yourself on occasion.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
I'm getting warm and fuzzy over the sharing is caring thing but don't forget to pay yourself!
I've drunk great wine solo. Watching the football after a gruelling work week and watching a 1990 Old Block , that I bought when starting out like you now, and drool as it evolve over the quarters.
Not everyone is going to be moved by what you enjoy most. Sometimes its a little devastating when you share with the wrong crowd- and that can even be a wine knowledgeable crowd who sometimes take their contribution as personally as the winemaker or are overly focused on their own passions ( Burg nerds can be annoying in HKG ).
Salute yourself on occasion.
Noted. I tend to share my favourite wines with my wife and my parents. Most of my friends are not into wine, so the most enjoyment I get is sharing "good value" wines with them with the hope that they will learn to appreciate it more.
JamieBahrain wrote: ... who sometimes take their contribution as personally as the winemaker ...
I used to know someone who was like that, if a wine was off, or perhaps past it, or even corked, he would struggle so very hard to "appreciate" the flavours. For my own part, I'm at the other extreme, ready to open a backup at the hint of anything troubling often with my fellow tasters holding me back.
felixp21 wrote:I purchased 1996 Rousseau Chambertin in Australia upon release for $180/bottle. ( significantly less than the price of Grange back then)
I've lost the receipt for the 99 Chambertin also purchased, but I am pretty sure it was less than $300/bottle, again, less than Grange.
Twenty years later, the 2016 is being released in the UK at about $5600 a bottle all up. Goodness knows what it will cost in Australia.
If someone had told me that the same wine would release for $5600 a bottle in 20 years, back in 1998, I would have laughed and thought them completely mad.
The only thing that is really mad is the price of Burgundy, it's head-scratching.
If you don't like it, Jamie, you can sell it (as I said above), and you will make a handsome profit. But if you are new to wine and want to know what to collect, Burgundy is an absolute fail-safe. Get it now and worry about the other stuff later.
On the down side, when back in Oz, I stare at my remaining bottles of 96 and 99, of which there are a pretty decent number, and simply can't bring myself to either drink or sell them. Too expensive to drink, too precious to sell.
So, hopefully you too will have to consider that one day hehe
I purchased 1999 for $180 in Australia
Beautiful tremendous exciting wine
Had my last bottle this year with 3 other people and they were thrilled by it!
There's place in Melbourne that's got two bottles of the 1999 Rousseau Chambertin for $5499 each.
Cheers Con.
Just found some 2015 Rousseau prices on a different well known Melbourne e-tailer.
Le Cazetiers - $1299.99.
Clos du Chateau - $1499,99.
Clos st Jacques - $1499.99.
Clos de la Roche - $1999.99.
Charmes Chambertin - $1999.99.
Chambertin - $3999.99.
Clos de Beze - $3999.99.
