Tips for a rookie wine collector

[asajoseph]

I will add one thing to the case for the defence for SA Shiraz ( ) - the wines that fare better with age are the ones that better balance fruit, extraction & structure in youth. I can only make this comparison based on wines being made now (i.e. newer vintages) vs older vintages of the same label, so I'm assuming styles haven't changed too much.

But chewy jam-bombs seem to stay chew jam-bombs at 15 years old, but the fruit just takes on more of a 'dried' character.

I'm thinking of a few older Torbrecks & St Halletts that I've tried, in particular. I

[grhm1961]

My wife and I have been buying and cellaring wine since the early-1980s on a modest budget. For a long time we had a house with a cellar in Adelaide, which was brilliant, but now live in Sydney without a cellar. Whilst we do have a wine fridge for the better wines, the vast bulk are stashed around the house in various, relatively cool spots, however it is far from ideal. Over time you learn which wines will store well in less-than-ideal conditions, and we focus on these, tasting regularly from various vintages which ensures nothing dies before we get to drink them, or very few, at least. We aim to cellar for that sweet spot of 8 - 12 years. Anything longer than that is at risk in our sub-optimal storage, although, as I said, the good stuff gets put in the wine fridge.

If I may be presumptuous enough to offer any advice at all, it would be simply this: whatever you buy, and whatever way you decide to store it, you simply must keep a detailed database of your wine (I use a simple spreadsheet) and keep tasting notes (even brief ones) for the wines you are cellaring. Otherwise you will kiss goodbye to many hard-earned dollars on wine you lose track of and have die in the cellar, or conversely, wines you drink too soon.

We love aged wine, and we love cooking. We can't afford to eat out at Sydney prices very often, and most definitely can't afford the aged wines on offer at most restaurants, but we can enjoy good food, and great wine at home. It's most definitely worth it.

And yes, we do also buy some aged wines at auction. You definitely can pick up some bargains that way, and if you buy through reputable auction houses you'll rarely regret your decisions.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Tell me about it! From "don't buy to cellar", to "strategic cellaring", and then "the right cellaring strategy". Finally a result. It was a tough slog I tell you but my job is done.

WTF...I haven't changed anything I've said...This was always about the RIGHT cellaring strategy...

Of course you changed your position. Here are the first two lines of your first post:

I'll probably give the least popular opinion.. Don't buy to cellar...You'll end up cellaring because your buying will outpace your drinking but I definitely would not be buying in multiples with the intent of cellaring.

Maybe what you wrote isn't what you meant to say but, in essence, you were putting forth a position that one shouldn't buy wines to cellar and that what "cellaring" would occur was only by accident of having wines leftover from regular drinking purchases. You continued to defend your initial post and only later did you add "strategic cellaring" to your position, and even later "the right cellaring strategy". The latter is a far cry from "don't buy to cellar". In which universe is this not a change? WTF indeed.

The people who are taking it as "This is the only way to go and anyone not doing this is wrong", like yourself, for example, are the ones that probably need to read it a bit more carefully because you've somehow felt offended or annoyed at a contrary idea yet your own responses show you haven't understood what I was saying - you said you have but it is blatantly obvious you don't.

Once again I reiterate, I am neither offended or annoyed by your ideas. However, now that you bring it up I am indeed annoyed by your utter inability to be consistent and coherant although, come to think of it, by now I shouldn't be surprised.

I can only fill what I'm saying with so many caveats..where it has been littered with "If you are buying X, if you have passive storage, if your average bottle price is X etc, etc in my opinion" and even flat out talking about cellaring certain wines...
You've consistently misrepresented my position which I'm not sure is intentional or lack of something else. But either way, I haven't changed my position even one iota.

You're right, there is absolutely no doubt that your position involves more caveats as you go along. The only person misrepresenting your position is yourself, to the point where you keep adding caveats and changing your position. That's probably the reason why you now say:

I would strongly suggest YOU read both Mivvy's and Jamie's post..because both are mentioning exactly what I've been trying to say and using real life examples (Bordeaux and AU wine (generically)). They're also bringing up examples where they're going to continue to buy and cellar (Burgundy and Piedmont) because they're concerned about prices increasing, and rightfully so.

I've read Mivvy's and Jamie's posts but did not realize that they are better able to express your ideas than you can in a dozen posts.

Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

Don't buy to cellar...You'll end up cellaring because your buying will outpace your drinking but I definitely would not be buying in multiples with the intent of cellaring.

So first is a statement which was clarified in the exact same post...

There might be a few select things you do want to cellar and that's fine...and yes, you might miss out on a few opportunities..but the actual cost of doing that far outweighs not...Buy back vintages if you must...drink whatever else you've unintentionally cellared...

This means buying 1-2 of things...at most...with maybe a few exceptions...

So I've specifically said there are a few select things you do want to cellar...All from my first post. So that's not consistent with your statement that I said not to cellar...because here I've specifically said that's not the case. And the reference to "leftovers" that have cellar unintentionally is the way you fill in those cheaper, lesser bottles that will get some age and may end up being something great at the end (or possibly not). But the entire way I've advocating cellaring select wines...what that will mean specifically will vary per person. Again, it isn't meant to set a specific strategy but meant to provoke thought.

Once again I reiterate, I am neither offended or annoyed by your ideas. However, now that you bring it up I am indeed annoyed by your utter inability to be consistent and coherant although, come to think of it, by now I shouldn't be surprised.

I've been incredibly consistent...in every post.. My first post categorically proves you've been misrepresenting what I've said and your statement I've changed my stance is wrong. I've only repeated the same thing several times...I do find it odd that you spent the effort to quote my first post but didn't bother actually reading the entire thing..and if you did, I'd suggest reading it again because obviously you didn't understand it.

I've read Mivvy's and Jamie's posts but did not realize that they are better able to express your ideas than you can in a dozen posts.

Yet oddly enough they got what I was trying to say...Why was that?
And you're right, maybe what they said was a better way of explaining it because it used a real life example specific to them rather than try to deal with it generically...I guess were you right about one thing in this thread.

I am beginning to see that you might have a somewhat narrow understanding of the world of wine and the myriad variety of wines and styles. There are many wines that fly under the radar of collectors and will almost never appear on the secondary market, especially in older vintages. These wines tend to be bought and drunk with little consideration for aging. Example: the 1998 Rockford ‘Moppa Springs’ which I bought at cellar door. Not easy to find I suspect. (I note that you ignored my example of the 15 year-old Greek wine in an earlier post

http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 60#p152957

Here's a good example of you not reading what I wrote...because clearly, my post that mentions your Greek wine, I mention in a post prior to you writing this. So clearly I did not ignore your example you just didn't read what I said.

Secondly...You're claiming I have a narrow understanding of the world of wine and of the different styles out there...which I find pretty comical. I don't claim to drink the widest out there and there are plenty of things I've not yet had...but pretty sure my geographical location and access to different things means I'm likely drinking wider than most people - It also helps that I attend many different types of events with many different types of wines and I taste a ton. And frankly, that is a pretty rich statement coming from someone that didn't know whites can throw particles...not to mention some other wine faux pas that are probably as a result of lack of experience more than anything else...

Let me add to this since we're at it and we're already at TLDR or in your case DR territory.

Your two scenarios is really just what exists in most peoples cellars. They will have some expensive bottles of wines which are often bought in ones and twos, as well as less expensive bottles in larger quantities.

Right...I'm not saying you can't have some of wine Group 1 in Group 2...but that also means the person in Group 2 has spent even more money even though we know there likely some sort of budget (what someone can afford). Looking at it another way, you could increase the holding of number 1 with better wine or more variety assuming the budget is the same....but again, it is just an example...But as you pointed out, many people have BOTH...What I'm trying to say is maybe the second part, where they have less expensive bottles in larger quantities, need to be examined...As you've already seen my example, you've somehow agreed I am not saying to not cellar any wine.

In fact you've agreed I'm not saying that several times...but you've also tried this straw man as well...

[Mahmoud Ali]

Ahh, so what you are saying is that one shouldn't buy to cellar but you may also want to cellar a few things. Got it, that's called speaking out of both sides of your mouth. So basically I am right, as are others, who pointed out that you said not to buy to cellar, and you are right in pleading that you said to cellar a few things. So your idea of clarification is saying the opposite. Well done! You've provoked thought all right but some of us are not sure what kind it is.

Agreed, you have been consistent all right, consistantly inconsistant ... in almost every post. As for quoting your first post, I'm not the only one, and even if I reread it, it still reads the same, do not buy to cellar except for the odd special bottle. Yup, that's like saying don't play around but occassionally cheat on your wife on special occasions. Got it.

Yes, you mentioned the Greek wine, but it ignored what I said, because I mentioned the information that prompted me to cellar the wine and you said that I cellared the Greek wine on a random gamble. Context, context, context, get with the program.

I am sure your geographical location puts you in abetter place than most other people, that you taste and drink a wider range of wine than most people, and you know more about wine than most other people. We are not worthy, we are not worthy. There is an emoticon that conveys this but I don't use them so just try to imagine it.

As for the last bit of your post regarding Group 1 and Group 2, and the marginal cost of this vs the marginal cost of that, it bores the hell out of me. Are you an accountant?

Mahmoud.

PS: My humblest apologies to all accountants but one, truly.

[Polymer]

And yet others have understood what I've said...It isn't double talk, it is being very specific about what I mean. So given you get what I'm saying now, you disagree with that strategy, that's ok. To suggest it isn't possible is obviously ridiculous because it is. It might be hard from a self control standpoint but it is most definitely possible.

I didn't ignore what you said...I said go out and buy older wines like it..which you can do and some stuff might be hard to do and that's a trade off. You might've found an old bottle of something else somewhere online or at a store and had that magical gem. You might've opened up that Greek wine 10 years later and it might be junk...You don't know. There are obviously multiple ways to explore older wines...what I am saying is cellaring your own bottle isn't the only way and there is a trade off for doing so.

Seriously, you made the statement towards me... You suggested my experience is narrow and my experience with other styles is limited... I specifically said I do NOT drink the wider than many and I know there are plenty of people on this very forum that know a hell of a lot more than me and have drank far wider than I do....Now when faced with information that conveys what you said is probably not true, you're taking that as I'm bragging? That's a very typical reaction from someone that can only argue against a straw man...

[JamieBahrain]

I think the OP's been driven back to drinking beer.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm sure others have understood you, you've been very, very, specific, and clearly I have a hard time reading and comprehending most of your posts. Given what you're saying now I'm glad you have sided with all those who have suggested strategic cellaring what with all the advice that was given before your first post which, if I remember correctly, was supposedly the least popular opinion. I'm not sure what you mean by self control because almost everybody advised that people exercise it.

I'm sure you're right, if someone wants an older Greek wine they can just as easily go out and fine another old wine like, they're almost all the same anyway. Want an old Napa cabernet from Ridge, just go and find another brand, almost the same, and in a pinch substitute it with an old Chilean or Aussie, no real difference, right? There are indeed multiple ways to explore different wines, just assume there isn't much difference between wineries and regions, what the heck, it's just fermented juice in a bottle.

Well you did say [i]"but pretty sure my geographical location and access to different things means I'm likely drinking wider than most people - It also helps that I attend many different types of events with many different types of wines and I taste a ton"[/i]. The only reason I said you seem to have a narrow understanding of wine regions and varieties is because of your suggestion that one can replicate an experience by going out and buying something like it. Admittedly that was a bit unfair.

Mahmoud.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I think the OP's been driven back to drinking beer.

THE post of the thread !!!

[TiggerK]

Yes, beer... or reluctantly considering the ‘Add Foe’ option, largely thanks to your stubborn and verbose refusal to accept any inkling of understanding of what Polymer was trying to say. Others got it, and I for one have certainly reconsidered my cellaring strategy a little bit thanks to his original comments, yet I can appreciate that others (inc you) enjoy their tried and true strategies. All points are valid. Yet the verbosity has gotten so convoluted.. you can’t let it go until you feel like you’ve won Mahmoud?? Or are you trying to win the wine internet overall? Have to say it’s not coming across very successfully either way...

[Mahmoud Ali]

Well, to be fair, Tigger, verbosity has been there on both sides.

In the first two pages of this thread there were many posts offering sage advice about conservative buying strategies, about making sure to buy wines from different regions and countries, to not buy too many bottles and vintages of the same wine. In the middle of this plops a post that said it was going to be contrarian and proceeded to do that.

I simply asked Polymer what he meant by his first post and have since been swamped by repeated insinuations of not understanding him, being told that I feel threatened or vulnerable, that anything I have cellared is easily replaced or substituted, and that people who cellar wines (and I assume he meant the people on this forum) don't understand how much they spend. Over the course of this debate Polymer said that prior to the internet people were uninformed and didn't have information to guide them and that they could only make gambles when it came to cellaring. He said that people weren't able to taste older winers because they weren't available.

Therefore it is not a case of "winning" but rather of defending what I believe cellaring is about and the luxury it provides by using the knowlege one has to make a decision about what wines to cellarr and to measure the results of it over the years.

Cheers .......... Mahmoud.

PS: What is "add Foe"?

[Mahmoud Ali]

My wife and I been buying and cellaring wine since the early-1980s on a modest budget. For a long time we had a house with a cellar in Adelaide, which was brilliant, but now live in Sydney without a cellar. Whilst we do have a wine fridge for the better wines, the vast bulk are stashed around the house in various, relatively cool spots, however it is far from ideal. Over time you learn which wines will store well in less-than-ideal conditions, and we focus on these, tasting regularly from various vintages which ensures nothing dies before we get to drink them, or very few, at least. We aim to cellar for that sweet spot of 8 - 12 years. Anything longer than that is at risk in our sub-optimal storage, although, as I said, the good stuff gets put in the wine fridge.

If I may be presumptuous enough to offer any advice at all, it would be simply this: whatever you buy, and whatever way you decide to store it, you simply must keep a detailed database of your wine (I use a simple spreadsheet) and keep tasting notes (even brief ones) for the wines you are cellaring. Otherwise you will kiss goodbye to many hard-earned dollars on wine you lose track of and have die in the cellar, or conversely, wines you drink too soon.

We love aged wine, and we love cooking. We can't afford to eat out at Sydney prices very often, and most definitely can't afford the aged wines on offer at most restaurants, but we can enjoy good food, and great wine at home. It's most definitely worth it.

And yes, we do also buy some aged wines at auction. You definitely can pick up some bargains that way, and if you buy through reputable auction houses you'll rarely regret your decisions.

Sage advice. We pretty much avoid eating out for the very same reason - overpriced wine, and all far too young. After all our cellaring my better half and I can drink modest 15-20 year old wine from all over the world, whether Rioja, Chianti, or Cotes du Rhone, and because we stuck to reputable produces and good vintages we hardly have a mis-step.

Sydney is a bugger, the heat can kill wine. The few wines I had left at the in-laws place between visits were clearly tired and exhibited signs of heat affectation to varying degrees despite being in the coolest room in house. They were in no way like the Australian wines I have cellared in Canada.My sympathies on your having to make compromises.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

I am just as equally to blame with keeping this discussion going. People can make up their own minds based on what they've read.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Well said Polymer, the same applies to me as well.

Cheers ............... Mahmoud.

[Ian S]

Bravo gents - time to move on

[dave vino]

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/Misc/wrong.jpg[/img]

[michel]

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/Misc/wrong.jpg[/img]

most apt dave

[TiggerK]

All good, fair reply Mahmoud, indeed there was verbosity on both sides. Pleased the debate seems settled with a 'hey, good points made by all, take from it each of you what you wish'.

It certainly got me thinking, that's for sure.

Cheers!
Tim

[rooman]

Sage advice. We pretty much avoid eating out for the very same reason - overpriced wine, and all far too young. After all our cellaring my better half and I can drink modest 15-20 year old wine from all over the world, whether Rioja, Chianti, or Cotes du Rhone, and because we stuck to reputable produces and good vintages we hardly have a mis-step.

Sydney is a bugger, the heat can kill wine. The few wines I had left at the in-laws place between visits were clearly tired and exhibited signs of heat affectation to varying degrees despite being in the coolest room in house. They were in no way like the Australian wines I have cellared in Canada.My sympathies on your having to make compromises.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

I dont wish to engage on the above discussion but I do have similar problems eating out and buying wines off wine lists that are over priced, far too young and not ready to drink. It seems that BYO restaurants are shrinking on a daily basis in Sydney and yet so many restaurants would rather sit empty early in the week rather than be flexible.

By way of contrast Brown Sugar which just down the road from me and BYO is packed every night as diners mix wines from their own cellars with wines off the list. I have been trying to convince a local restaurant that is empty early in the week to adopt a similar or modified policy re BYO without success.

[michel]

Sage advice. We pretty much avoid eating out for the very same reason - overpriced wine, and all far too young. After all our cellaring my better half and I can drink modest 15-20 year old wine from all over the world, whether Rioja, Chianti, or Cotes du Rhone, and because we stuck to reputable produces and good vintages we hardly have a mis-step.

Sydney is a bugger, the heat can kill wine. The few wines I had left at the in-laws place between visits were clearly tired and exhibited signs of heat affectation to varying degrees despite being in the coolest room in house. They were in no way like the Australian wines I have cellared in Canada.My sympathies on your having to make compromises.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

I dont wish to engage on the above discussion but I do have similar problems eating out and buying wines off wine lists that are over priced, far too young and not ready to drink. It seems that BYO restaurants are shrinking on a daily basis in Sydney and yet so many restaurants would rather sit empty early in the week rather than be flexible.

By way of contrast Brown Sugar which just down the road from me and BYO is packed every night as diners mix wines from their own cellars with wines off the list. I have been trying to convince a local restaurant that is empty early in the week to adopt a similar or modified policy re BYO without success.

Brisbane byo is rugged
I concur restaurants have brutally expensive wines with no maturity
I am happy to pay for byo

[rooman]

I dont wish to engage on the above discussion but I do have similar problems eating out and buying wines off wine lists that are over priced, far too young and not ready to drink. It seems that BYO restaurants are shrinking on a daily basis in Sydney and yet so many restaurants would rather sit empty early in the week rather than be flexible.

By way of contrast Brown Sugar which just down the road from me and BYO is packed every night as diners mix wines from their own cellars with wines off the list. I have been trying to convince a local restaurant that is empty early in the week to adopt a similar or modified policy re BYO without success.

Brisbane byo is rugged
I concur restaurants have brutally expensive wines with no maturity
I am happy to pay for byo

I can understand successful restaurants sticking with a no BYO policy but when the place is half empty night after night it is time to rethink the business model. I have said to local restaurants that I am looking to bring aged wines they can't source or offer and hence don't mind higher BYO charges to cover their loss on comparable list wines and yet the owners would prefer to remain half empty.

[grhm1961]

I can understand successful restaurants sticking with a no BYO policy but when the place is half empty night after night it is time to rethink the business model. I have said to local restaurants that I am looking to bring aged wines they can't source or offer and hence don't mind higher BYO charges to cover their loss on comparable list wines and yet the owners would prefer to remain half empty.

One of my best dining experiences was talking a 'strictly no BYO' restaurant into accepting our wines: we agreed ahead of time to buy champagne off their wine list and pay a fair corkage for the rest. We then sent a glass of each wine (which included a Ch Mouton Rothschild) back to the kitchen for everyone to sample and we all had an amazing time. The owner and the head chef both chatted with us at the end of the night and all agreed it had been a memorable and eye-opening experience.

Everything is negotiable!

[michel]

I can understand successful restaurants sticking with a no BYO policy but when the place is half empty night after night it is time to rethink the business model. I have said to local restaurants that I am looking to bring aged wines they can't source or offer and hence don't mind higher BYO charges to cover their loss on comparable list wines and yet the owners would prefer to remain half empty.

One of my best dining experiences was talking a 'strictly no BYO' restaurant into accepting our wines: we agreed ahead of time to buy champagne off their wine list and pay a fair corkage for the rest. We then sent a glass of each wine (which included a Ch Mouton Rothschild) back to the kitchen for everyone to sample and we all had an amazing time. The owner and the head chef both chatted with us at the end of the night and all agreed it had been a memorable and eye-opening experience.

Everything is negotiable!

When the recession hits BYO makes a come back
We have a few great stalwarts that accommodate us for wine get togethers

[Ian S]

I can understand successful restaurants sticking with a no BYO policy but when the place is half empty night after night it is time to rethink the business model. I have said to local restaurants that I am looking to bring aged wines they can't source or offer and hence don't mind higher BYO charges to cover their loss on comparable list wines and yet the owners would prefer to remain half empty.

One of my best dining experiences was talking a 'strictly no BYO' restaurant into accepting our wines: we agreed ahead of time to buy champagne off their wine list and pay a fair corkage for the rest. We then sent a glass of each wine (which included a Ch Mouton Rothschild) back to the kitchen for everyone to sample and we all had an amazing time. The owner and the head chef both chatted with us at the end of the night and all agreed it had been a memorable and eye-opening experience.

Everything is negotiable!

and you made a proper effort to show them that good hospitality can work in both directions! Such attitudes go a long way to changing mindsets.

For those places struggling on a Mon/Tue/Wed, then it really does make sense to start having a BYO evening, as 60 customers will be much better than 10, even if the corkage is modest or even free.

[sjw_11]

I can understand successful restaurants sticking with a no BYO policy but when the place is half empty night after night it is time to rethink the business model. I have said to local restaurants that I am looking to bring aged wines they can't source or offer and hence don't mind higher BYO charges to cover their loss on comparable list wines and yet the owners would prefer to remain half empty.

One of my best dining experiences was talking a 'strictly no BYO' restaurant into accepting our wines: we agreed ahead of time to buy champagne off their wine list and pay a fair corkage for the rest. We then sent a glass of each wine (which included a Ch Mouton Rothschild) back to the kitchen for everyone to sample and we all had an amazing time. The owner and the head chef both chatted with us at the end of the night and all agreed it had been a memorable and eye-opening experience.

Everything is negotiable!

and you made a proper effort to show them that good hospitality can work in both directions! Such attitudes go a long way to changing mindsets.

For those places struggling on a Mon/Tue/Wed, then it really does make sense to start having a BYO evening, as 60 customers will be much better than 10, even if the corkage is modest or even free.

I think sometimes they are concerned this will just lead people who would have come on Friday or Saturday to come mid-week to take advantage of the BYO thus negatively impacting their margins overall...

I somehow doubt that would outweigh the net increase in their business, but I guess it depends on the type of restaurant and the location (e.g. a friendly bistro in a dense urban area I would think could massively drive the avg # of visits the local residents made with a BYO policy).

[rooman]

and you made a proper effort to show them that good hospitality can work in both directions! Such attitudes go a long way to changing mindsets.

For those places struggling on a Mon/Tue/Wed, then it really does make sense to start having a BYO evening, as 60 customers will be much better than 10, even if the corkage is modest or even free.

I think sometimes they are concerned this will just lead people who would have come on Friday or Saturday to come mid-week to take advantage of the BYO thus negatively impacting their margins overall...

I somehow doubt that would outweigh the net increase in their business, but I guess it depends on the type of restaurant and the location (e.g. a friendly bistro in a dense urban area I would think could massively drive the avg # of visits the local residents made with a BYO policy).

Having worked in the industry, the people who can afford to go out mid to early week are often quite different from those who go out on Friday and Saturday night. I walk around Bondi during the week and know which are BYO and those that aren't. Early in the week, restaurants like Brown Sugar, Pompeii which are BYO are packed every night often with two or more sittings. Those that aren't normally struggle to seat half the restaurant and yet they persist. It makes no sense to me.

[phillisc]

and you made a proper effort to show them that good hospitality can work in both directions! Such attitudes go a long way to changing mindsets.

For those places struggling on a Mon/Tue/Wed, then it really does make sense to start having a BYO evening, as 60 customers will be much better than 10, even if the corkage is modest or even free.

I think sometimes they are concerned this will just lead people who would have come on Friday or Saturday to come mid-week to take advantage of the BYO thus negatively impacting their margins overall...

I somehow doubt that would outweigh the net increase in their business, but I guess it depends on the type of restaurant and the location (e.g. a friendly bistro in a dense urban area I would think could massively drive the avg # of visits the local residents made with a BYO policy).

Having worked in the industry, the people who can afford to go out mid to early week are often quite different from those who go out on Friday and Saturday night. I walk around Bondi during the week and know which are BYO and those that aren't. Early in the week, restaurants like Brown Sugar, Pompeii which are BYO are packed every night often with two or more sittings. Those that aren't normally struggle to seat half the restaurant and yet they persist. It makes no sense to me.

Or Mark, over enthusiastic wine somms who have mis-judged their clientele and are now holding a shit load of stock that they have to shift. A couple of places in Adelaide did deals where they gave reductions or specials on certain wines on their lists. When mark ups are routinely 300-600% something's gotta give, and I would say the punters round Bondi have the restaurants sussed

Bit like estate agents buying listings and when the property doesn't sell, someone looses, but it aint going to be the buyer.
Cheers craig

[rooman]

Having worked in the industry, the people who can afford to go out mid to early week are often quite different from those who go out on Friday and Saturday night. I walk around Bondi during the week and know which are BYO and those that aren't. Early in the week, restaurants like Brown Sugar, Pompeii which are BYO are packed every night often with two or more sittings. Those that aren't normally struggle to seat half the restaurant and yet they persist. It makes no sense to me.

Or Mark, over enthusiastic wine somms who have mis-judged their clientele and are now holding a shit load of stock that they have to shift. A couple of places in Adelaide did deals where they gave reductions or specials on certain wines on their lists. When mark ups are routinely 300-600% something's gotta give, and I would say the punters round Bondi have the restaurants sussed

Bit like estate agents buying listings and when the property doesn't sell, someone looses, but it aint going to be the buyer.
Cheers craig

Craig

Funny enough this was part of my pitch to one of the local restaurants I was trying to get to go BYO early to mid week - namely one of the benefits of going BYO is you don't have stock and funds tied up in wine which might or might not move. I have not run the numbers but if you charge say $15 per bottle which i would be happy to pay, it frees up cashflow for the business.

Mark

[rooman]

I have been collecting/cellaring wine for about 2 years now. As a rookie wine collector I am interested in whether you have any tips on how to build a good collection that I will be able to enjoy in 5, 10, 20 and 30 years time? I am 33 years of age, so I hopefully have many years to collect and drink what I collect.
....
David

David

My apologies, i know we have some serious thread drifting going on here but taking one of your prized wines out to dinner with you is one of most enjoyable aspects of cellaring wines. I have friends all over the world who still remember special bottles I have brought along to dinner and shared with them.

It is one of the intangible benefits of cellaring wine - sharing something you have collected long ago with a close friend, perhaps if you are lucky also sharing the back story to a particular bottle - where you purchased it and why. In my experience collectors are incredibility generous people often sharing extremely expensive wines with friends, never asking for some form of quid pro quo.

Mark

[Mahmoud Ali]

It is one of the intangible benefits of cellaring wine - sharing something you have collected long ago with a close friend, perhaps if you are lucky also sharing the back story to a particular bottle - where you purchased it and why. In my experience collectors are incredibility generous people often sharing extremely expensive wines with friends, never asking for some form of quid pro quo.

Rooman,

I want to pick up on your comment about wine collector generosity. In addition to the genuine pleasure they get sharing expensive and rare wines, another aspect to this is what they originally paid for these wines. While it is true that these wines may now cost a lot more to replace, in general wine collectors tend to think about their contribution in light of what they paid for it, not it's replacement value. It is not that they do not appreciate the value of their contribution but a wine from the cellar is a sunk cost while procuring the same bottle is a matter of discretionary spending. My sentiment when it comes to wine is don't look at what it is worth now, think about how cheaply you get to drink the stuff.

To give an example, it is way easier for me to open a bottle of 1982 Sassicaia from my cellar than it is to try and procure a bottle. I would contribute to an off-line or vertical in a heartbeat but would really have to think twice about having to buy one. On Wine Searcher this wine is currently not available in either Canada or Australia. The oldest bottle available in Canada is the 2010 and that costs $250. Meanwhile in Australia the 2010 is $424 and the oldest available is the 1985 (considered one of the best) and is $6,241 for a magnum.

By the way, the 2015 Sassicaia has been chosen as Wine Spectator’s Wine of the Year in their 2018 Top 100 list.

Mahmoud.