The Red or White Burgundy thread

[JamieBahrain]

Di you guys hear the rumour about LEroy being sold to LVMH for a billion euros?

Anyways, a friend of mine ( HKG importer Felix would know ) was with Madame Lalou for lunch and she was quite disturbed about the rumour and has officially dispelled it.

[felixp21]

YEA, a nonsense started in FB.
Julien Froger was quick to dispell the myth.

[rooman]

Bouchard Baby Jesus 2005 - massive bouquet deep forest notes, the fruit is still tightly coiled around the tannins, not unpleasant but opened way to early. Could almost be a Bordeaux on a blind tasting. Won’t open another for 7-10 years at which time it should be a something pretty impressive.

[felixp21]

2006 Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair Vosne Romanee 1er Cru "Aux Reignots"
Brought along for a rather lovely lunch today by a wine-loving friend. Out of my price range
The few wines that i have had from this Domaine have been excellent, but I am aghast at the asking prices for them.
Floral wine with typical Vosne spice, great length and probably at or close to peak for this vintage. An excellent but not truly memorable bottle of Burgundy. 94pts, drink 2020+

1996 Domaine Fourrier Gevrey Chambertin 1er Cru "Clos St Jacques"
my contribution, a decent wine from a decent vintage, both wine and vintage truly over-rated these days. Fourrier didn't hit his stride until about 2005, his stuff from the 90's is nothing special, although reputation ensures they command high prices at auction. Lots of red fruit and earth, typical spiky acidity of 1996. 90pts drink now.

2007 Lucien le Moine Charmes Chambertin
some of the 2007's are both drinking beautifully well now and exceeding all expectations. This is one of them. Typically elegant Charmes, red fruited and gloriously ripe tannins. I really like what these guys are doing at this address. Wonderful. 94pts drink now-2030.

[Hacker]

1996 Domaine Fourrier Gevrey Chambertin 1er Cru "Clos St Jacques"
my contribution, a decent wine from a decent vintage, both wine and vintage truly over-rated these days. Fourrier didn't hit his stride until about 2005, his stuff from the 90's is nothing special, although reputation ensures they command high prices at auction. Lots of red fruit and earth, typical spiky acidity of 1996. 90pts drink now.

Isn't this the first of JM's vintages? I think he took over in 1995 but sold off his crop or juice. Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to remember this?

[felixp21]

yea, I reckon 1995 is about right.
sadly, Fourrier entered an agreement with Pearl of Burgundy (or, scum of Burgundy, as I know them) from the mid-noughties, their marketing hype and strategic focus has ensured the wines are now way over-priced for what they deliver. Don't get me wrong, but $1200 for the Griottes and $600 for the CSJ is as close to ridiculous as you can get. Good, solid, pure Gevreys, not more. However, if you hype them up in Asia, arrange lots of HK tastings and auction lots of wines, esp big formats, you can create an artificial market, so I suppose kudos to them. Long-term, it can't be good for either the Domaines involved or the region itself.

[felixp21]

2002 Meo Camuzet Clos Vougeot
Big, agressive, dark-fruited Clos Vougeot. Lots of earth, mint, dark cherries and a trace of tar. Huge wine, in need of another decade at least, which is very unusual for the vintage. Purchased when this Domaine was affordable, the asking price is now just plain silly. Still, I say that a lot about Burgundy these days 91++ drink 2030-2040

[felixp21]

2005 Francois Mikulski Meursault Charmes
first of a case, it is annoyingly good. Annoying because I stopped buying White Burgundy a while ago, and wines like these make me wish I hadn't!!
Light gold in colour, the nose is stunning, lightly burnt butter, stone-fruits, tough of honey and white flowers. Perhaps a tiny bit of age-appropriate oxidation, adding to the complexity. Unmistakably Meursault, and fabulous. 95pts, drink now-2020.

[felixp21]

2010 Faiveley Nuits St George 1er Cru Les St Georges
despite this being within the "modern" Faiveley era, this is definitely an "Old School" wine from this Domaine.
absolutely shut down tight, like, as in, no nose whatsoever, and virtually no palate to speak of. I'm not fooled by Burgundy that often, and so closed was this wine that I decided it must be low-level TCA, so I sampled a second bottle via coravin. Same.
as shut a wine as I have ever seen, and reminds me of an old-style Clos des Cortons.
no rating, try again in a decade!!!
if you have any, do NOT bother opening for at least five years. NR

[Hacker]

Thanks for the warning, I will bury them deeper away from temptation. The Chevillon equivelant is far more open for business, had one a few months ago.

[michel]

2008 Henri Boillot Chambertin
2010 Henri Boillot Beze
This maker is my go to white pinup boy
But we need his deft transparency of whites to make more reds
These reds are a cross between Rousseau & Roumier
Lovely perfume but fine tannins.....

[brodie]

2009 Faiveley GC Les Cazetiers: lovely and very open right now with tons of red fruits and nice freshness. Good length and balance. Really good. Another very nice 2009, a vintage I bought heavily and now very happy about pretty much all the purchases.

[felixp21]

1993 Rousseau Gevrey 1er Cru " Clos St Jacques
Lovely red-fruited and earthy Gevrey, but the experience was not optimal with a reasonable degree of bret sitting in the background, which didn't blow off, even with a decant. Wouldn't be fair to rate this bottle. NR

1995 Drouhin-Laroze Chambertin Clos de Beze
Never been a fan of this Domaine, and this wine didn't change anything. Short and still somewhat tannic, this held little interest amongst the group. Not up to GC standard, all too common at this address. 87pts, drink now.

2004 Nicholas Potel Clos de la Roche
a favourite vineyard of mine, this seems to have been unable to avoid the green meanies of the vintage. Certainly has a lifted freshness and plenty of mineral pinosity, but the greens are there detracting from the overall experience. I really dislike 2004 red Burgundy. 84pts Drink now

2005 JL Trapet Gevrey Villages "Ostrea"
Trapet + 2005 = OH NO!! Yep, a basic mathematics we all learnt in Grade 5, and this bottle holds true. This will, however, be a good wine in a further decade. The underlying material is beautiful, but firm, austere tannins rule the roost at this stage. Hold 89+pts drink: 2025+

[michel]

1993 Rousseau Gevrey 1er Cru " Clos St Jacques
Lovely red-fruited and earthy Gevrey, but the experience was not optimal with a reasonable degree of bret sitting in the background, which didn't blow off, even with a decant. Wouldn't be fair to rate this bottle. NR
+

The CSJ is potentially in a great palate place if a good bottle
There is another 93 for Christmas coming....

1993 Vogue Musigny is this week thrilling with unfurling perfume and fruit -will last longer- one of the greatest Musigny from Vogue
2001 Vogue Musigny I befuddled a table with this double blind-all guessed burgundy but were overwhelmed by the waterfall of perfume and transparency - this is perfection for me a slave to 2001s true Burgundian characters

[JamieBahrain]

1993 Rousseau Gevrey 1er Cru " Clos St Jacques
Lovely red-fruited and earthy Gevrey, but the experience was not optimal with a reasonable degree of bret sitting in the background, which didn't blow off, even with a decant. Wouldn't be fair to rate this bottle. NR

1995 Drouhin-Laroze Chambertin Clos de Beze
Never been a fan of this Domaine, and this wine didn't change anything. Short and still somewhat tannic, this held little interest amongst the group. Not up to GC standard, all too common at this address. 87pts, drink now.

2004 Nicholas Potel Clos de la Roche
a favourite vineyard of mine, this seems to have been unable to avoid the green meanies of the vintage. Certainly has a lifted freshness and plenty of mineral pinosity, but the greens are there detracting from the overall experience. I really dislike 2004 red Burgundy. 84pts Drink now

2005 JL Trapet Gevrey Villages "Ostrea"
Trapet + 2005 = OH NO!! Yep, a basic mathematics we all learnt in Grade 5, and this bottle holds true. This will, however, be a good wine in a further decade. The underlying material is beautiful, but firm, austere tannins rule the roost at this stage. Hold 89+pts drink: 2025+

I don't get the patience folks have with Burgundy. Yep, sure, I've had the great ones, but I just can't get over the 50 or so modest Burgundies it takes to get there. Nor can I stomach the region's arrogance. The White Burgundy prem-ox issues fuel the arrogance and display utter contempt for the consumer. Last week of six bottles of 1er Leflavie 50% were bruised apple- buggered prem-ox victims.

Felix I'll pm you see if you about and interested in some of our Burgundy shin-dings. We have Veronica Drouhin dining with us soon and the expereince is always pleasant and private versus some of the commercial events about town.

[felixp21]

Jamie, in many respects you are entirely correct.

White Burgundy is a laugh, anyone buying above modest Premier Cru either has too much money or not enough sense. I giggle when I see wine lovers opening 3-4 year-old top GC's: Montrachets, Chevaliers etc and espousing their incredible beauty.... these wines need 15+ years to display why they are great wines, and at such a young age, honestly, they usually don't drink a lot better than the top Aussie chardonnays (which is why so many Aussie wineries are desperate to do 3-4 year old horizontals, to show how "amazing" their wines are)
But of course, leave them 15 years, and one out of two (at best) is sink material. As said on another forum, you may as well stand in the shower and rip up $50 notes.
Will diam closure help? Yes, to an extent, but there is still a significant premox issue with diam, although the percentages are far better.
Will screwcap help? Possibly, but the true worth of a Montrachet is beyond the age of 20 years, and therefore I have to agree with the argument that, at this stage, the jury is out.
I am in the camp that believes the issue lies both in the winery and the closure, which really complicates things!!!
Whatever, as it stands, buying high-level white Burgundy is a huge risk, if you seriously want to drink the wine at a time at which it would be showing it's true wares.

The top echelon of Red Burgundy has become simply a luxury product. Buying Rousseau, DRC and the like is pretty much simply buying the label. They are great wines, for sure, but the price differential between those products and excellent quality producers charging 1/5th the price is, often, miniscule. (as most critics scores would indicate)
However, the overall quality of Red Burgundy has absolutely soared over the past two decades, possibly due in some degree to climate change, but more likely a result of the huge influx of talented and EDUCATED wine-makers into the area. What is surprising me the most when I go there is the number of Domaines that once produced mundane or crappy wines now making quite brilliant stuff. The "one in 50" earth-shattering ratio you mentioned was once pretty true, but there are countless addresses over there now churning out high quality stuff, and it'll take another 5-10 years before the public catch on.
There are still crappy makers over there, but I'm willing to bet that they won't be around in 10-15 years, there is just too much demand for the wine to continue to allow mediocrity.

[Ozzie W]

However, the overall quality of Red Burgundy has absolutely soared over the past two decades, possibly due in some degree to climate change, but more likely a result of the huge influx of talented and EDUCATED wine-makers into the area. What is surprising me the most when I go there is the number of Domaines that once produced mundane or crappy wines now making quite brilliant stuff. The "one in 50" earth-shattering ratio you mentioned was once pretty true, but there are countless addresses over there now churning out high quality stuff, and it'll take another 5-10 years before the public catch on.
There are still crappy makers over there, but I'm willing to bet that they won't be around in 10-15 years, there is just too much demand for the wine to continue to allow mediocrity.

I am interested in your thoughts about which previously mundane producers have now lifted their game to the point of brilliance.

[Polymer]

I think young Burgundy..both red and white at GC level can be very enjoyable....Having them blind you can still see how fantastic they are...so there is definitely not label bias there....

IMO, I actually think WHITE Burgundy shows even better than RED Burgundy at GC level when young....As I said, blind, you're getting the depth and length you just don't find in most 1er Cru....Sometimes they definitely need some time to settle down but 3-4 years is enough for that. And yes, with more age they'd be even better...so there is some loss of "value" there...but good producer, GC/1er Cru White Burgundy crushes AU Chardonnay..it isn't even close really...

With Red, GC level can often come across as New Worldish when young...a bit too ripe..a bit too heavy...plenty will not but some often will...I think blind GC Red Burg will often UNDER perform when young....significantly so. Unless you are attracted to that extra ripeness and heaviness...but then you can argue you can get that from the New World if that's what you want...

But I agree 100% that consistency isn't there....Red Burg wise, I think you spend all this time and money chasing that one really fantastic experience...only to have very moderate and many disappointed experiences most of the time...With White, Premox is a serious problem. I think consistency wise White Burgundy comes through most of the time as far as expectation...the problem is you're having to drink it young. As long as you appreciate them young, that's not an issue...

I also agree pricing is super ridiculous....Good producer Red is stupidly priced right now and I think the only thing keeping white at bay somewhat is Premox...

But sadly, still buying it..still finding new producers..still finding wines that are reasonable enough...and still looking for alternatives that are close enough...

[felixp21]

Hi Ozzie,
an awful lot of great new and improved producers in Burgundy. Two that I'm happy to mention and that you can buy in Australia are
1. Domaine Felettig in Chambolle
2. Domaine Georges Noellat in VR.
both Domaines markedly improveD over the past few years, Noellat has been steadily improving under Maxime Cherulin, and Gilbert and Christine Felettig have had a rather more sudden climb up the ladder, commencing in 2015 (due to far better viticulture)
Albert Bichot wines have also dramatically improved, but sadly, the prices have generally followed that improvement.

[felixp21]

Polymer, glad to hear you feel the whites show well at such a young age, but I respectfully disagree. Montrachet often, in my experience, is a surly customer in it's extreme youth, and drinking it before it has had a chance to shine seems an awful waste to me. Chevalier less so, and can sometimes be quite showy early on, but again, a terrible waste.
I find trying to asses Montrachet in barrel as hard as any wine i know of.

[Polymer]

Felix,

Montrachet needs the most time..but that's Montrachet...Think are impressive young but still not worth drinking young when you can get just as much enjoyment from other GCs and 1er Cru...but you didn't say Montrachet you just said top GCs. With Montrachet, I agree with you 100%...

Chevalier needs some time..3-4 years is enough before it looks good...BM and BBM are even more open with 3-4 years...CC as well...

So looking at top producers, top GCs (outside of Montrachet), they're all drinking quite impressively with 3-4 years....in fact, I'd probably not wait on any of them..I'd love to but as you said, premox is a problem..and I'd just rather not take that chance.

[felixp21]

Felix,

Montrachet needs the most time..but that's Montrachet...Think are impressive young but still not worth drinking young when you can get just as much enjoyment from other GCs and 1er Cru...but you didn't say Montrachet you just said top GCs. With Montrachet, I agree with you 100%...

Chevalier needs some time..3-4 years is enough before it looks good...BM and BBM are even more open with 3-4 years...CC as well...

So looking at top producers, top GCs (outside of Montrachet), they're all drinking quite impressively with 3-4 years....in fact, I'd probably not wait on any of them..I'd love to but as you said, premox is a problem..and I'd just rather not take that chance.

..... yea, that's fair enough, you are right in many respects. However, I still maintain the value in these wines are when they are at full maturity, say 15 years + when quite staggering wines can be had. Young Chevaliers can indeed be lovely, but a non-premoxed 20 year old Leflaive, for example, is in a class way above it's young siblings. Trouble is, you might need to open 3 or 4, maybe more, to get a decent one!!!!

[felixp21]

The raft of problems associated with Burgundy, and indeed it is a raft, turns new wine-lovers off the region, and reasonably so. I find many of the producers are really small-minded in many respects, and either don't want to, or can't, see the big picture.
Over the past 20 years, Burgundy has evolved into a region that now charges as much as any wine region in the World. That's ok if you are producing the greatest wines on Earth, but you cannot produce mundane or faulty wines, charge the Earth, and expect to retain loyal followers. Their blessing is the fact that they produce a finite number of bottles each year, vintage variation noted, yet the world-wide markets for their product just keep growing.
The future of Red Burgundy is as bright as can be, for the reason above, but I think the marketing, price structure, and global sales of White Burgundy will provide a fascinating study over the next decade. Not even billionaires are tempted to stand in the shower and tear up $50 notes.

[Polymer]

..... yea, that's fair enough, you are right in many respects. However, I still maintain the value in these wines are when they are at full maturity, say 15 years + when quite staggering wines can be had. Young Chevaliers can indeed be lovely, but a non-premoxed 20 year old Leflaive, for example, is in a class way above it's young siblings. Trouble is, you might need to open 3 or 4, maybe more, to get a decent one!!!!

Well that's just it..there's more value if you can get one with age that isn't a goner but there is a significant difference between good producer GC and 1er Cru when young so it still makes it worth buying/enjoying....It won't have the QPR of some good 1er but it was never going to be great QPR to begin with...you pay exponentially more for a little more length and a little more complexity...

But going back to what you originally said...outside of the premox problem white burgundy is more consistent..as in I pay for a wine, I drink it young but the wines generally perform and feels like it was worth it. With Red, it is such a crap shoot..When they're good, they're really really good..but plenty of times they're just ok....even with great producers you don't always get something great...or even good...and you pay so much for good red burgundy you're expecting a pretty decent experience. This is where they're terribly inconsistent and why people think Red Burgundy is a minefield...and I truly believe that is the case.

[Ozzie W]

Hi Ozzie,
an awful lot of great new and improved producers in Burgundy. Two that I'm happy to mention and that you can buy in Australia are
1. Domaine Felettig in Chambolle
2. Domaine Georges Noellat in VR.
both Domaines markedly improveD over the past few years, Noellat has been steadily improving under Maxime Cherulin, and Gilbert and Christine Felettig have had a rather more sudden climb up the ladder, commencing in 2015 (due to far better viticulture)
Albert Bichot wines have also dramatically improved, but sadly, the prices have generally followed that improvement.

Thanks Felix. I'm familiar with some other Noellat's, but not Georges. Felettig I've never heard of. I'll check them both out.

[felixp21]

Hard to argue with you there Polymer.
I think the term "minefield" when discussing Red Burgundy is possibly justified. I don't find it a minefield, but I have spent a lot of time drinking wines of the region, and many, many visits to the place itself. I find it reasonably straight-forward, but I guess it has cost me many thousands of $$$ and countless hours getting to know Burgundy (and Bordeaux).
However, I am not experienced with the wines of Piedmont, and haven't spent the time learning the region and it's wines to any great extent. Thus, when I buy a bottle of Barolo or Barbaresco, it's a crap shoot, and I feel like I am walking in a minefield. I am disappointed so many times, but this is almost certainly due to my lack of experience with the region, not because the wines aren't any good. So, in general, I just stay away.
In other words, my disappointment in Italy has made me better understand the identical problems people face with Burgundy, and so I know exactly where you are coming from.
Of course, the other problem with Red Burgundy (it won't happen with the whites until the premox issue is solved) is that it is now well and truly the hunting ground of speculators and investors. It's a trading commodity, and the top of the tree stuff is simply absurdly priced (generally, on the secondary market). This too, adds to the frustration of Burgundy. The proven, reliable, high quality reds are no longer affordable, or at least no longer justifiable.
Sadly, Piedmont is following suit, and you Italian lovers will soon find the same problem of having wines in your cellar that you want to open, but just can't justify doing so

[Polymer]

Felix,

Even the top producers make disappointing wine..that isn't to say it is bad...but nowhere near expectations. It definitely helps gain consistency when you know what the producer can do...and of course being able to try them before buying helps as well...but I think when spending the type of money needed for great Red Burg, you're always hoping for that moment...and I don't think it delivers most of the time...It delivers a good wine, just not that transcendent moment we're trying to get.

If you're finding it all the time...that's really great...or maybe just expectations are different.

[felixp21]

expectations clearly different. Rarely do I drink a bottle of Burgundy and get that "life changing" moment, indeed, my favourite Burgundy to drink is probably the large number of village wines that offer amazing value and are true to their origin. I'm no-where near as enamoured with Bourgogne level wines, to me they are like Aussie pinots with little or no sense of place.
to be honest, I get as big a thrill quaffing my incredibly delicious bottle of $40 Felettig Clos le Village 2015 as I do sipping on many a GC wine. Sure, the GC's are better wines, but the care-free nature of drinking a delicious lower tier wine is so very satisfying.
Your point about top wines being disappointing is so very true, I've had many such experiences and have learned an awful lot from those experiences.

Rousseau is a great example, his Chambertin and Clos de Beze are, for me, consistently in the top 10 wines in all of Burgundy, stunning, pure and extraordinary in every way. However, the rest of his stuff somewhat mediocre for what it is, Ruchottes, CdlR, even these days his Clos St Jacques are middling wines, stupidly put on a pedestal by people who don't know any better and assume if it's Rousseau, it's the best. Had an 05 Mazis at a Christmas tasting, to be honest, pretty ordinary for a Mazis from that vintage, I wasn't the least bit surprised. As for his Villages Gevrey, the pricing for that is ridiculous, I could easily name a dozen better Gevery Village wines, let alone other Nuits addresses. Still, that is where both speculation and wine snobbery contribute to make Burgundy the "minefield" you describe.
Another is Liger-Belair, as I mentioned above somewhere.... I just don't get it!! Leroy, Meo-Camuzet, gee, I could really go on!!!

[JamieBahrain]

Sadly, Piedmont is following suit, and you Italian lovers will soon find the same problem of having wines in your cellar that you want to open, but just can't justify doing so

It's a long way off Felix as a whole region. Though yes, there are very determined people driving Piedmont hard commercially.

Piedmont's greats, that are understood, are coming off a low base - even Monfortino. And unlike Burgundy, the mapping is pretty new and every vintage there's a plethora of new and often previously unheard of Crus released.

The "predictables" are going nuts with demand/pricing; but this was obvious five years ago, with slowly mapped out guidance and understanding for the masses with simple traditionalist/ modernist explanations. Of course Conterno/ Rinaladi went nuts and Mascarellos emerged slowly followed by Cappellano ( I begged forum members to go long on this wine when visiting HKG ).

The assault on Piedmont by trophy hunters is bound to stumble soon as I question their passion and understanding beyond the "predictables"- as well as those driving the region commercially. For the true lovers, all is well, great wines on tap at an entry level pricing few regions are matching.

I'm drinking a $20 "protest" Barolo at the moment from the 2013 vintage delivering an amazingly evolved expression of traditional Barolo.

[JamieBahrain]

Photographs are included for Authenticity Jamie

I'm new to lurking here MIchel and missed this.