Wendouree Wine Notes

[phillisc]

1996 Cabernet
Brooding dark red colour, perfect cork, 0.5 mm staining
The faintest whiff of blueberry, leather, spice almost tarry coal like nose.
Palate magnificent with depth of flavour, balance, delicateness went on and on...very hard for me to say where this wine is...does it have another 20 in it?
Have left 1/4 of a bottle standing up, will have the rest tonight..to see if it opens up more
Cheers
Craig

Update...drank the rest last night, opened a little more, but the next one's five years away...great wine

Cheers Craig

[rooman]

A gathering in London.
Extremely hot & we had to use ice buckets to cool down the wines. Therefore, the wines were constantly changing - with the need to return the bottles to ice. Very decent pours as only five participants, effectively we had two bites of the cherry - when I left plenty remained.
Shiraz

1994
Deep blood red; ferrous, dusty, straitened; power-packed yet well-proportioned, refreshing acidity, well balanced; lingering. Needs 5 years. 97.
2001
Dark blood red; meaty, peppery, more upfront; punchy, fuller, baked fruit. Powerful, in yer face finish. Needs 5 years. Suspect some heat damage. 91
2002
95
2003
Dark; chunky, beefy; fresh feel to palate, big, weighty; rugged, finishes well. Needs 5 + years. 93

Shiraz/Mataro
1998
Rubied; earthy overtones, Mourvèdre deadens (as so often) the bouquet; iron fist in a velvet glove. Plenty going on & a bonzer finish. Now & next decade. 92
1999
Dark; more restrained on nose; mulled fruit, broad, chunky. Now & next decade. 92
endouree lived up to its exalted reputation & the need for extended aging. Old fashioned in the best sense & the absence of flashiness welcome.

Wendouree wines are not available here in Canada but from Mark's notes I sense that I would very much like them. I can just imagine these: "ferrous", "dusty", "meaty", "peppery", "chunky", "beefy", "earthy overtones", "broad and chunky". Not a mention of chocolate, cocoa, mint, and fruit compote. Sounds fabulous.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

Mahmoud

Broad and chunky with earthy tone is probably a very good description of the wines. My problem is I find they lack any degree of complexity to make them interesting enough to purchase. In Australia of course that is tantamount to hearsay and could get one banned from any dedicated wine group. The only possible exception is the 20 year old Cab Malbec blend. This wine is best just to track down at auctions.

Mark

[Polymer]

Really? What is not complex about them?

People dislike them for a lot of different reasons....But lacking complexity is not one of them....

[rooman]

Really? What is not complex about them?

People dislike them for a lot of different reasons....But lacking complexity is not one of them....

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

[Matt@5453]

Really? What is not complex about them?

People dislike them for a lot of different reasons....But lacking complexity is not one of them....

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

The 2014 Malbec I tried recently was all finesse and complexity. I think you are misinterpreting the 'brute force' of some wines/vintages over finesse.

[rooman]

Really? What is not complex about them?

People dislike them for a lot of different reasons....But lacking complexity is not one of them....

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

The 2014 Malbec I tried recently was all finesse and complexity. I think you are misinterpreting the 'brute force' of some wines/vintages over finesse.

Oh believe I have tried and tried to like these wines. After all, they are the darling of the wine brigade. We even had a fully on Wendouree only dinner last years, a dozen clunky lumberjacks all stomping round with their two left feet and not a ballerina to be found. Ok, I have had the odd oneI enjoyed and typically they have included Malbec but it took 20 years to approach approach-ability. I am also not quite sure how I can confusing brute force with finesse. They seem quite contradictory concepts.

[Polymer]

Really? What is not complex about them?

People dislike them for a lot of different reasons....But lacking complexity is not one of them....

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

Complexity and finesse would be different things...and I can see why people don't think it has finesse...they're definitely very rustic wines made in a very old school way...

I don't know what you're comparing it to but knowing what many people drink and styles they like, I find this to be a really odd comment that these don't have complexity.

Can you define what you mean by this? Complexity does not = I like it. I like it does not = complexity. It might have all the flavors you HATE..the texture you HATE...but that has nothing to do with whether a wine is complex or not.

Wine is subjective...but I think people often use the wrong terms to describe what they're thinking...Say you hate the wine, don't like the style, disgusted by the flavors, etc, etc...but this is one area where I'm willing to say it is just wrong. It is like saying they lack acid or tannins...objectively that is just incorrect....and while I think assessing complexity is not an objective thing, out of all the criticisms I've seen for Wendouree, I don't know if that has ever come up.

As far as finesse...The wines are brute force in terms of structure...at least they used to be...but not in terms of ripeness.

[Mahmoud Ali]

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

I wouldn't write off Canadian lumberjacks ....

http://youtu.be/4JUDBJkeFNY

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: Try as I might, I just cannot get the video to display instead of the youtube link. I've tried to follow some advice from the internet but to no avail. Any ideas?

[deejay81]

Really? What is not complex about them?

People dislike them for a lot of different reasons....But lacking complexity is not one of them....

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

Complexity and finesse would be different things...and I can see why people don't think it has finesse...they're definitely very rustic wines made in a very old school way...

I don't know what you're comparing it to but knowing what many people drink and styles they like, I find this to be a really odd comment that these don't have complexity.

Can you define what you mean by this? Complexity does not = I like it. I like it does not = complexity. It might have all the flavors you HATE..the texture you HATE...but that has nothing to do with whether a wine is complex or not.

Wine is subjective...but I think people often use the wrong terms to describe what they're thinking...Say you hate the wine, don't like the style, disgusted by the flavors, etc, etc...but this is one area where I'm willing to say it is just wrong. It is like saying they lack acid or tannins...objectively that is just incorrect....and while I think assessing complexity is not an objective thing, out of all the criticisms I've seen for Wendouree, I don't know if that has ever come up.

As far as finesse...The wines are brute force in terms of structure...at least they used to be...but not in terms of ripeness.

Agree with Kevin here...

I'm not a huge fan of Wendouree's but the more I try, the more I'm enjoying them...
None have been short of complexity... You can for sure have a brutish wine but still be very complex and some of the young/not ready Wendouree's you could probably describe them as that, but none have lacked complexity... You may not enjoy the type of complexity that they offer, but that doesn't mean they are not complex...

Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but from the thread way back from the "Wendouree and friends" night, you seem to be confusing complexity there too... Complexity is a combination of tannin, acid, fruits (primary), secondary, tertiary development, finish etc.... Wendouree usually has a bucket load of most of these...

[rooman]

My apologies but I just find they lack any degree of complexity or finesse. Sort of like trying to dance a Viennese Watlz when your dance partner is a Canadian lumberjack who still has his work shoes on.

Complexity and finesse would be different things...and I can see why people don't think it has finesse...they're definitely very rustic wines made in a very old school way...

I don't know what you're comparing it to but knowing what many people drink and styles they like, I find this to be a really odd comment that these don't have complexity.

Can you define what you mean by this? Complexity does not = I like it. I like it does not = complexity. It might have all the flavors you HATE..the texture you HATE...but that has nothing to do with whether a wine is complex or not.

Wine is subjective...but I think people often use the wrong terms to describe what they're thinking...Say you hate the wine, don't like the style, disgusted by the flavors, etc, etc...but this is one area where I'm willing to say it is just wrong. It is like saying they lack acid or tannins...objectively that is just incorrect....and while I think assessing complexity is not an objective thing, out of all the criticisms I've seen for Wendouree, I don't know if that has ever come up.

As far as finesse...The wines are brute force in terms of structure...at least they used to be...but not in terms of ripeness.

Agree with Kevin here...

I'm not a huge fan of Wendouree's but the more I try, the more I'm enjoying them...
None have been short of complexity... You can for sure have a brutish wine but still be very complex and some of the young/not ready Wendouree's you could probably describe them as that, but none have lacked complexity... You may not enjoy the type of complexity that they offer, but that doesn't mean they are not complex...

Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but from the thread way back from the "Wendouree and friends" night, you seem to be confusing complexity there too... Complexity is a combination of tannin, acid, fruits (primary), secondary, tertiary development, finish etc.... Wendouree usually has a bucket load of most of these...

Ok, your kitchen sink approach to complexity pretty much encapsulates every figure of any wine. By this definition, Durifs from Rutherglen would fit your definition of complex wines. They have lashings of tannins, acid and fruit by the bucket and a finish so long you need to wash out your mouth. The comparison between Durifs and Wendouree wines is by no means an accident. I find both are made very much in the same rustic style and that heavy rustic style masks in the vast majority of their wines the secondary/tertiary development that for me equates with complexity when combined with a certain degree of lightness and lift.

The great wines of the world I have drunk over forty years from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo etc all have a certain lift associated with their tertiary development supported by of course an indefinable but perfect balance of tannin and acid to produce a fantail like finish that goes forever (to steal a Michael Broadbent analogy). I am not adverse to tannic wines given I am happy drinking young Bordeaux and other forms of Cab Sav. But whichever way I look at it, I find the fruit and tannins in Wendouree wines clunky like a lumberjack and hence lack my construct of what defines complexity. The wines are also polarising even between wine pointy heads. At the Sydney Wendouree offline last year, at least half the table of 12 people had a similar response and could find no reason to collect and store the wines. Many just struggled to see why anyone gets excited over them.

If there is one exception I believe it was the preferred wine of the evening, and the only examples I have in my cellar, being the Cab Malbec. And herein may be part of the problem: great French and Italian wineries tend to focus on just one wine/example, ignoring different plots. Wendouree does everything and my most adverse reaction is to their shiraz based examples. Whichever way I look at them, I just find these particular wines boring in terms of what I am looking nowadays.

[deejay81]

Ok, your kitchen sink approach to complexity pretty much encapsulates every figure of any wine. By this definition, Durifs from Rutherglen would fit your definition of complex wines. They have lashings of tannins, acid and fruit by the bucket and a finish so long you need to wash out your mouth.

Yes, this is complexity.
A small part, but it is complexity.

I am not adverse to tannic wines given I am happy drinking young Bordeaux and other forms of Cab Sav. But whichever way I look at it, I find the fruit and tannins in Wendouree wines clunky like a lumberjack and hence lack my construct of what defines complexity.

This is probably more balance and structure as Kevin had pointed out previously... not complexity...
Also there is much more (usually), that defines Wendouree wines, not JUST clunky fruit and tannins that you keep focusing on... the "clunky fruit" and tannins, and VA aromas, and acid mouthfeel, and other secondary aromas and flavours even when youthful... this is complexity which Wendouree has...
Again, from your descriptions, they may not be balanced/structured to your nose/palate... but they are far from lacking complexity...

[Ozzie W]

Interesting discussion about the definition of 'complexity'. To me, the number of distinct flavours and aromas of a wine is a measure of complexity. Often these come in layers and change over time in the glass. The more that's going on, the more complexity.

[rooman]

Interesting discussion about the definition of 'complexity'. To me, the number of distinct flavours and aromas of a wine is a measure of complexity. Often these come in layers and change over time in the glass. The more that's going on, the more complexity.

I'm with Ozzie on this point. Another way of expressing complexity is layering. For those people that are big supporters of the Wendouree wines, the common features people refer too are the tannins and rustic nature of the wine. For me the Wendouree wines, or at least the ones built around shiraz are too two dimensional to rank as complex. But at the end of the day it is horses for courses.

[Ozzie W]

Looking back at my notes for the Wendouree's I've tasted, I've really enjoyed the older ones, but no so much the younger ones. I think it's a wine that just needs a very long time in the cellar. I've had the 1988 Shiraz twice this year and both times it was magnificent... complexity in spades. Thought it could be a Best's Thomson Family on one blind tasting, which is high praise indeed coming from me. SA Shiraz isn't something I usually enjoy drinking these days.

[rooman]

Looking back at my notes for the Wendouree's I've tasted, I've really enjoyed the older ones, but no so much the younger ones. I think it's a wine that just needs a very long time in the cellar. I've had the 1988 Shiraz twice this year and both times it was magnificent... complexity in spades. Thought it could be a Best's Thomson Family on one blind tasting, which is high praise indeed coming from me. SA Shiraz isn't something I usually enjoy drinking these days.

That is a fair call. I did enjoy a 20 year Wendouree at one of the offlines. So it doesn't surprise me that out around 30 odd years they come into their own. Sadly with the prior exception, most of the examples I have tried have been 15 years or less. I also can't remember the last time I purchased a SA shiraz. If I do purchase shiraz, it tends to be cool climate and more often than not Victorian.

[JamieBahrain]

In Australia of course that is tantamount to hearsay and could get one banned from any dedicated wine group.

I'd dispute this rooman.

In times gone by, Wendouree was a bit of an enigma for the wine punter with some legendary positivity from Halliday - "Fist in a velvet glove" I recall.

Auswine commentary from 15 to 20 years back reflected the mystery with little concrete opinion and the now defunct starforum was generally very negative on Wendouree. This is where my opinion is that the wines are incredibly polarising at home. Though my experience abroad is they are far better received.

I'm guessing you're a little tongue in cheek, but I don't believe you will ever be Robinson Crusoe slamming Wendouree !

The great wines of the world I have drunk over forty years from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo etc all have a certain lift associated with their tertiary development supported by of course an indefinable but perfect balance of tannin and acid to produce a fantail like finish that goes forever

Which Barolo? I've always thought you a bit negative on Barolo? And it mirrors Wendouree in so many ways !


It's OK not to like them. Not sure what the fuss is about? I drink great Burgundy and Bordeaux most weeks in tasting formats and I'm rarely inspired- I still find Burgundy more obscene in its inconsistency than a cerebreal/ emotional experience . I'm at the age where I know where my passion is. Pretty much why I only find time to scribble a note on Piedmont wines.

[Polymer]

Ok, your kitchen sink approach to complexity pretty much encapsulates every figure of any wine. By this definition, Durifs from Rutherglen would fit your definition of complex wines. They have lashings of tannins, acid and fruit by the bucket and a finish so long you need to wash out your mouth. The comparison between Durifs and Wendouree wines is by no means an accident. I find both are made very much in the same rustic style and that heavy rustic style masks in the vast majority of their wines the secondary/tertiary development that for me equates with complexity when combined with a certain degree of lightness and lift.

The great wines of the world I have drunk over forty years from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo etc all have a certain lift associated with their tertiary development supported by of course an indefinable but perfect balance of tannin and acid to produce a fantail like finish that goes forever (to steal a Michael Broadbent analogy). I am not adverse to tannic wines given I am happy drinking young Bordeaux and other forms of Cab Sav. But whichever way I look at it, I find the fruit and tannins in Wendouree wines clunky like a lumberjack and hence lack my construct of what defines complexity. The wines are also polarising even between wine pointy heads. At the Sydney Wendouree offline last year, at least half the table of 12 people had a similar response and could find no reason to collect and store the wines. Many just struggled to see why anyone gets excited over them.

Durif with big fruit that is one big note is NOT complex. Wendourees do not have big fruit and they're absolutely nothing like a big Durif...I don't know if you realize this or not but a preference for a very ripe Bordeaux (not that all of them are that but you have a preference for ripe bordeaux), has infinitely more do to with a big Durif than a Wendouree ever will...

A rustic style doesn't mask the secondary and tertiary development..but I guess that depends on what you're considering rustic..

Fantail finish with perfect balance of acid and tannin? Really? Some wines don't and aren't supposed to have a fantail finish...nor do they have perfect balance of acid and tannin...but none of that has to do with complexity.

You keep linking the number of people that liked the wine to complexity and the two have absolutely NOTHING to do with each other and that's why I honestly don't think you understand what complexity is.

Boring to you does not mean it doesn't have complexity..
Hating a wine does not mean a wine does not have complexity.
A majority of people on a table or in general hating a wine does not mean a wine does not have complexity.
A lack of finesse has nothing to do with complexity.

Now if you truly feel Wendouree has one big note...even if people didn't agree..that's fine but I've never seen you say that either...nor have I seen you try to describe what makes Wendouree a simple wine because all of your reasons so far have nothing to do with that.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to like Wendouree...but complexity has nothing to do with that...

[Ozzie W]

Fantail finish with perfect balance of acid and tannin? Really? Some wines don't and aren't supposed to have a fantail finish...nor do they have perfect balance of acid and tannin...but none of that has to do with complexity.

Agreed. Acid, tannin & also alcohol is part of a wine's "structure", not complexity.

This is how WSET define it:

Complexity is a desirable feature in a wine and one which can result from fruit character alone or from a combination of primary, secondary and tertiary aromas and flavours. Not all high quality wines are complex; sometimes varietal definition is what makes a wine great, and oak or tertiary characteristics might detract from the high quality. As with ‘balanced’, only use the word ‘complex’ with context. It is not enough to say whether a wine is complex or not; you have to explain what provides the complexity. It may be obvious to you that the wine in front of you is complex, but you need to demonstrate to the examiners how you have come to this point of view. You must always refer to the evidence in the glass that supports your argument.

There's an interesting research paper on this topic from last month which you can download from here:
[url]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323 ... 0/download[/url].

Participants who were wine novices were asked to specifically identify what characteristics they thought were associated with the concept of complexity in a bunch of wines. The results showed that the participants perceived a complex wine as one with more distinct aromas and flavours, which is in line with the WSET definition.

[wiggum]

Getting some pretty strong responses to this theme. I for one can say that that I have Wendourees from 2004 onwards and the wines with some of the best complexity are the 2015 Shiraz based wines and of course the Cab Malbec,s of any vintage. They certainly compare with some of the most complex wines of any type I have had. I would put them well outside of the realm of most durifs. Different class.

[ticklenow1]

I only started buying Wendouree as they are one of my wife's favourite's. I'd never been a huge fan until Jamie shared a couple of old Shiraz's. When you have a great Wendouree, it's a light bulb moment. It's just hard trying to tell my wife that she needs to wait 20 years to drink the ones we have!

Cheers
Ian

[Polymer]

Well I didn't mean to start a crap storm on this...I just think it is good to clarify terms because I often think people use some terms interchangeably but they shouldn't be and maybe this is one I think people often misuse a lot.

[JamieBahrain]

I think it was a better thread to correlate notes and that was my hope and intention. Now its a bit of a jumble which wasn't my original intention. May as well add the annual crayon thread here as well.

The nice thing is we all seem to be in agreeance that you don't have to like these wines. The pleasant evolution of the topic, from say the starforum negativity on Wendouree, is a lot more people have experienced older and well cellared Wendouree. People bashed Wendouree a decade or so ago due the tannins as well- which I found a bit odd having began my Piedmont journey and put it down to lack of world wide exposure to wine styles.

[rooman]

The great wines of the world I have drunk over forty years from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo etc all have a certain lift associated with their tertiary development supported by of course an indefinable but perfect balance of tannin and acid to produce a fantail like finish that goes forever

Which Barolo? I've always thought you a bit negative on Barolo? And it mirrors Wendouree in so many ways !

God no, quite the opposite, I adore the stuff. Sadly I have been starting a couple of new businesses in recent years and with kids in private schools and overseas skiing, my disposal income for buying Barolo has dropped to nil. My last decent wide ranging tasting of Barolos and Barbarescos on mass however was an offline I organised a year or so ago in Sydney. http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 4&start=90

From that evening my highlights were probably a '64 Mascarello and the 96 Bruno Giacosa Barbaresco. In terms of younger Barolos on the night, I was less keen on the 2004 La Spinetta Barolo Vursu 'Vigneto Campe. Sadly since then my Piedmonte drinking has been more limited to the Produttori Reserve vintages I cellared before kids, skiing and new business ventures took hold.

But have no fear, if I ever manage to return to HK, I will be hitting up your cellar for Barolos to expand my knowledge, especially the old Mascarellos I believe you have.

Mark

[Matt@5453]

The great wines of the world I have drunk over forty years from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo etc all have a certain lift associated with their tertiary development supported by of course an indefinable but perfect balance of tannin and acid to produce a fantail like finish that goes forever

Which Barolo? I've always thought you a bit negative on Barolo? And it mirrors Wendouree in so many ways !

God no, quite the opposite, I adore the stuff. Sadly I have been starting a couple of new businesses in recent years and with kids in private schools and overseas skiing, my disposal income for buying Barolo has dropped to nil. My last decent wide ranging tasting of Barolos and Barbarescos on mass however was an offline I organised a year or so ago in Sydney. http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 4&start=90

From that evening my highlights were probably a '64 Mascarello and the 96 Bruno Giacosa Barbaresco. In terms of younger Barolos on the night, I was less keen on the 2004 La Spinetta Barolo Vursu 'Vigneto Campe. Sadly since then my Piedmonte drinking has been more limited to the Produttori Reserve vintages I cellared before kids, skiing and new business ventures took hold.

But have no fear, if I ever manage to return to HK, I will be hitting up your cellar for Barolos to expand my knowledge, especially the old Mascarellos I believe you have.

Mark

Please respect the topic, if private school and skiing expenses are an issue, FFS these are first world problems.

[rooman]

Which Barolo? I've always thought you a bit negative on Barolo? And it mirrors Wendouree in so many ways !

God no, quite the opposite, I adore the stuff. Sadly I have been starting a couple of new businesses in recent years and with kids in private schools and overseas skiing, my disposal income for buying Barolo has dropped to nil. My last decent wide ranging tasting of Barolos and Barbarescos on mass however was an offline I organised a year or so ago in Sydney. http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 4&start=90

From that evening my highlights were probably a '64 Mascarello and the 96 Bruno Giacosa Barbaresco. In terms of younger Barolos on the night, I was less keen on the 2004 La Spinetta Barolo Vursu 'Vigneto Campe. Sadly since then my Piedmonte drinking has been more limited to the Produttori Reserve vintages I cellared before kids, skiing and new business ventures took hold.

But have no fear, if I ever manage to return to HK, I will be hitting up your cellar for Barolos to expand my knowledge, especially the old Mascarellos I believe you have.

Mark

Please respect the topic, if private school and skiing expenses are an issue, FFS these are first world problems.

Well that is a completely random comment and last I checked you weren't the moderator on this forum so back in your shell wee puppy. I was responding to Jamie's question to me about Barolo. If you don't like a post ignore and more on.

[JamieBahrain]

Fair enough rooman.

Was holidaying in the developing world so missed your response.

[rooman]

Fair enough rooman.

Was holidaying in the developing world so missed your response.

Where were you on holiday? I love taking the kids away and showing different parts of Asia. Best part about being a parent is exploring the developing world.

[JamieBahrain]

Actually why do you think I was in Asia? Australia can be a great eye opener for kids.

I was trekking in remote Indonesia and took my daughter to a village in northern Thailand for a week.

But staying on topic, Tony Brady kindly took my family on a tour of Wendouree and it is a wonderful experience for kids. Pioneering like feel- Sovereign Hill like.

[rooman]

Actually why do you think I was in Asia? Australia can be a great eye opener for kids.

I was trekking in remote Indonesia and took my daughter to a village in northern Thailand for a week.

But staying on topic, Tony Brady kindly took my family on a tour of Wendouree and it is a wonderful experience for kids. Pioneering like feel- Sovereign Hill like.

Mainly because you said "developing world" and you live in Asia, ipso facto, holiday in Asia. Not so keen on trekking in Indonesia but I am always interested in Thailand.

[phillisc]

Yes on the to do list...21 years ago that I was last at Wendouree...must go and have another look...before the rumoured investment bankers move in

cheers craig