The Red or White Burgundy thread

[mychurch]

[quote="swirler"]Lol![/quote

Indeed...

Only ‘good’ news was that the RC was overshadowed by the DRC Romanee St Vivant from the same year. Hopefully that means I’ll get invited to taste the RC in 20 years when it’s a bit nearer maturity

Interestingly all the Burgs were blown out of the water by an 85 Checal Blanc. Great to report I was sent a photo of that as well...thanks boys..

[felixp21]

after a bitterly disappointing one-week tour of Tassie wineries, it was good to get back to sanity and consume a few average and a few decent Burgs. prior to heading home to China.

As for Tasmania, the chardonnays show, IMO, a good deal of promise, not unlike several other regions in Australia. If I lived down-under, I would certainly prefer to cellar and drink the best of Aussie chardonnay compared to many over-priced and often pre-moxed village and PC white Burgundies.
We are not at the GC level yet, but it is heartening to see the improvement over the past two decades across the country.
However, the Pinots were, in our opinion, pretty much terrible. Having tasted around 50 of them, at least 85% of these were flabby uninteresting simple fruit bombs, devoid of any energy and drive, and without any cellaring potential. Sure, they will cellar and get "older", but I would very, very much doubt they would actually improve.
The (very few) exceptions were the top two wines from Joseph Chomry (which I was very surprised at, having expected very little from this Domaine), the top of the range from Dalrymple, and a 2015 reserve version from Milton. These four were pretty good, all would be up there with a decent Villages IMO, and each would rate 90-92 points.
The advice to seek out the "new kid on the block" was perhaps not the best tip I have ever had. "New Certan", complete with it's rip-off label of VCC, was utterly atrocious, a classic hooker complete with tons of make-up and no substance. Utterly forgettable. Joining that monstrosity at the bottom of the barrel was stuff from Kelvedon, Pipers Brook and Bream Creek (which has reviews from Aussie critics that totally mystify me.)
I remain perplexed as to why Aussie winemakers in general, with notable exceptions, continue to struggle and frustrate with their Pinot Noir, not unlike their trans-Tasman neighbours.
I also remain equally perplexed with the scores metered out by Aussie wine critics across the Pinot Board. Oh well, 95 points sells, doesn't it!!

Anyway, we downed a slew of 2015 Bourgogne and Village reds, all drinking beautifully "on the fruit" but I suspect these might close down in the not too distant future. The highlight of the session, however, was a more mature wine:

2009 de Montille Vosne Romanee PC Malconsorts
pricey wines, these, but this is well worth the entry ticket. Incredibly high-toned yet rich wine, full of tart cranberry, raspberry and wild strawberries. Spice and earth, a touch of violets and liquorice. Glorious drive and length. Fans out at the back end. This is how a great Burgundy should be. Years to go until it peaks, probably close to a decade, but this is profound right now. Not usually my favourite Domaine, they nailed this wine in this vintage. Chase it down, it's worth it. 96pts, drink; 2025-2050.

[felixp21]

1996 Meo-Camuzet Vosne Romanee 1er Cru Aux Brulees
absolutely delightful wine, as it should be considering what it now costs!!!
beautifully rich, yet light on it's feet. Red cherries, cranberry, Vosne spice, floral. I love the "weightlessness" of this wine, which powers on to a long, round and profound finish. The Brits might call this an "exemplary" Burgundy. A true highlight to Sunday lunch. 95pts. Drink: now-2030.

[michel]

after a bitterly disappointing one-week tour of Tassie wineries, it was good to get back to sanity and consume a few average and a few decent Burgs. prior to heading home to China.

As for Tasmania, the chardonnays show, IMO, a good deal of promise, not unlike several other regions in Australia. If I lived down-under, I would certainly prefer to cellar and drink the best of Aussie chardonnay compared to many over-priced and often pre-moxed village and PC white Burgundies.
We are not at the GC level yet, but it is heartening to see the improvement over the past two decades across the country.
However, the Pinots were, in our opinion, pretty much terrible. Having tasted around 50 of them, at least 85% of these were flabby uninteresting simple fruit bombs, devoid of any energy and drive, and without any cellaring potential. Sure, they will cellar and get "older", but I would very, very much doubt they would actually improve.
The (very few) exceptions were the top two wines from Joseph Chomry (which I was very surprised at, having expected very little from this Domaine), the top of the range from Dalrymple, and a 2015 reserve version from Milton. These four were pretty good, all would be up there with a decent Villages IMO, and each would rate 90-92 points.
The advice to seek out the "new kid on the block" was perhaps not the best tip I have ever had. "New Certan", complete with it's rip-off label of VCC, was utterly atrocious, a classic hooker complete with tons of make-up and no substance. Utterly forgettable. Joining that monstrosity at the bottom of the barrel was stuff from Kelvedon, Pipers Brook and Bream Creek (which has reviews from Aussie critics that totally mystify me.)
I remain perplexed as to why Aussie winemakers in general, with notable exceptions, continue to struggle and frustrate with their Pinot Noir, not unlike their trans-Tasman neighbours.
I also remain equally perplexed with the scores metered out by Aussie wine critics across the Pinot Board. Oh well, 95 points sells, doesn't it!!

Anyway, we downed a slew of 2015 Bourgogne and Village reds, all drinking beautifully "on the fruit" but I suspect these might close down in the not too distant future. The highlight of the session, however, was a more mature wine:

2009 de Montille Vosne Romanee PC Malconsorts
pricey wines, these, but this is well worth the entry ticket. Incredibly high-toned yet rich wine, full of tart cranberry, raspberry and wild strawberries. Spice and earth, a touch of violets and liquorice. Glorious drive and length. Fans out at the back end. This is how a great Burgundy should be. Years to go until it peaks, probably close to a decade, but this is profound right now. Not usually my favourite Domaine, they nailed this wine in this vintage. Chase it down, it's worth it. 96pts, drink; 2025-2050.

I have been trying Tassie pinot since 1988
fruitbomb is a good descriptor
I dont get them at all
For me the NZ crowd are just as bad with fruit bomb characteristics
I havent tried the Chromy gear for years

[felixp21]

2002 Jean Grivot Richebourg
wow, lovely aromatics, flowers, earth and sweet black fruits fill the room!! Black cherries, minerals, spice, earth and mint. Rich and long, still fairly primary but drinking superbly. One of those wines where you know it has at least a decade of positive development in front of it, yet have no regrets opening it now. As usual for this Climat, a huge wine, but balanced and still light on its' feet.
When I purchased a case of this back in the day, 2004-5, this wine was expensive but affordable, recent vintage prices are out of control and only for the curious billionaire.
96pts drink: now-2040.

1993 Henri Gouges NSG 1er Cru Les St Georges
yea, this guy makes his wine like Faiveley used to, and d'Angerville still does.... old-school, uncompromising and built to age. (well, at least, that is the idea.)
to be brutally honest, I have never really had a decent Gouges, and this is no exception. This wine is all tertiary, all structure, a bit of brown sugar and not much fun. Last of my case, all 12 wines never gave me any pleasure. I haven't tried this Domaine in recent times, I can only hope he has done a Faiveley and dramatically altered the house style.
88pts drink: now

[felixp21]

2002 Domaine Liger-Belair Vosne Romanee 1er Cru Reignots
A very different style of wine than the modern vintages of this Domaine. This is all about structure and tannins, with the fruit very much in the background. Reminds me a little of old-style Fourrier. Very unusual for an 02, this vintage is generally accessible and fruit-forward. I guess it might be that this is still much too young, but I doubt it will ever morph into anything spectacular. Like Fourrier, older vintages such as this are stupidly over-priced due to the far greater excellence of the new house "style". An OK wine, nothing to call dad about. 89pts drink: now-2030.

[felixp21]

2010 Domaine Duroche Chambertin Clos de Beze
ahhh, a nice quiet Sunday after a hectic Vinexpo week. Nice to sit down, relax and open a great bottle to partner some awesome cheeses picked up in HK.
remarkably good wine, despite it's obvious youth. Classic Burgundy nirvana with enormous power and richness whilst remaining incredibly light on it's feet. Massive Peacock's tail at the end. Slightly darker fruit spectrum, maybe black raspberries, but certainly not plum at this stage. Still a hint of candy, Gevrey earth and violets. Ridiculous length. Stunning wine. 97pts drink: 2022-2040.

[Hacker]

2010 Fourrier Gevrey VV: Much lighter in colour than I can recall with other vintages. Needs a couple of hours in the decanter to fill out. Quite an acidic spine (but not as bad as the 2008) and cherry componants on the palate, fairly long finish. This is more of a food wine than other Fourriers I have encountered, or for sipping over 4 hours. I much preferred the 2009 version of this. This, 89-90pts, a good 3 points lower than the '09. Not really sure if it will improve with further aging.

[Hacker]

2010 Jean-Marc Pillot Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Vergers Clos Saint-Marc: Lemon coloured - phew, no premox - beautiful floral nose, plenty of energy, acid was beautifuly balanced. Peach and lemon on the palate, just perfectly sharing the stage with a slight mineral structure to keep your interest. I wish I could have compared this with a LEAS with a few years age on it, I can't help feeling the Leeuwin might have it's nose in front.
Anyway, lovely wine, and am pleased to have more in the cellar.

[felixp21]

2015 Henri Felettig Chambolle Musigny "Clos Le Village"
the sort of simple, thoroughly delicious village wine that really gets me excited about the 2015 vintage in the lesser climats. Gorgeous red fruits, menthol, whiteflower, high-toned but with the richness and ripeness of the vintage. 2015 was excellent in Chambolle. Will provide amazing value ($40 EP) high-quality Burgundy drinking over the next decade. Not sure if you will gain a huge amount by extended cellaring of this wine, it is fantastic right now. 92pts drink: now-2030.

[felixp21]

2010 Jean-Marc Pillot Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Vergers Clos Saint-Marc: Lemon coloured - phew, no premox - beautiful floral nose, plenty of energy, acid was beautifuly balanced. Peach and lemon on the palate, just perfectly sharing the stage with a slight mineral structure to keep your interest. I wish I could have compared this with a LEAS with a few years age on it, I can't help feeling the Leeuwin might have it's nose in front.
Anyway, lovely wine, and am pleased to have more in the cellar.

Over last Christmas, we stuck the 2010 LEAS amongst a pile of 2010 Village and Premier Cru White Burgundies, and it stacked up very, very well. The Bachelet Puligny Sous les Puites was the standout, but the LEAS was in the top three of the 8 wines.

[brodie]

2011 Hudelot Noellat VR Les Suchots: definitely a bit on the lean side with red cranberries and some white pepper. Actually I don't mind these lighter less ripe years. Delicious and refined with nice length. No sense of green to my palate

2005 Faiveley Chablis Les Clos: absolutely in the zone, ripe intense citrus fruits, tons of extract and mid palate density, chalky rocky stony long long finish. Superb really. 2nd out of 3 bottles. Better than 1st bottle had 2 years ago. Not the slightest hint of premox, very pale yellow.

brodie

[felixp21]

2015 Chantal Remy Bourgogne Rouge
ridiculously good wine for it's classification. A touch of dry extract, chock full of sour cherry, strawberry and violets. Stunning length. Incredibly drinkable, glass after glass. An absolute treat. 91pts drink: now-2025.

[michel]

2012 paul pernot bienvenue
Tad smear of tropicality wound around wonderful fruit and structure
2006 Vincent Girardin Chevalier Montrachet
Stop the clocks
Wet hay white chocalate nose
Cerebral chess palate of complexity
Fruit interwoven with tannins and acid
No rush
Just smell and pause
Share with true friends

[michel]

Beze Beze Beze

1999 Jadot still in the introspection tunnel of the vintage- good luck
2002 Jadot the bested wine from the vintage for me thus far
2005 Jadot too young- a freak giant of structure in the making
2005 Rousseau WOTD Francois Millet Vogue waterfall transparency with gentle earthiness- seek out
2009 bruno clair transparently approachable would never have picked the vintage
2014 Bruno clair reflects vintage open generous cellar or drink
There were others I will check the photographs
The 1974 Hardys Vintage Port was kinda gently thrilling
I guessed it as a real port- what a pleasure

[Cactus]

Does anyone buy Burgundy direct from a domaine and ship it to Australia? I went though there on holidays recently and have some favourites. They mention there is a company they all use there which can ship anywhere in world pretty much. Just wondering if people find this is the best way to go. Or do you target wholesalers or importers? I imagine my costs if I were to go direct would be cost of wine +cost of shipping + Australian WET and GST.

[michel]

Does anyone buy Burgundy direct from a domaine and ship it to Australia? I went though there on holidays recently and have some favourites. They mention there is a company they all use there which can ship anywhere in world pretty much. Just wondering if people find this is the best way to go. Or do you target wholesalers or importers? I imagine my costs if I were to go direct would be cost of wine +cost of shipping + Australian WET and GST.

always wondered about the logistics
I think volume would help for shipping

[felixp21]

Does anyone buy Burgundy direct from a domaine and ship it to Australia? I went though there on holidays recently and have some favourites. They mention there is a company they all use there which can ship anywhere in world pretty much. Just wondering if people find this is the best way to go. Or do you target wholesalers or importers? I imagine my costs if I were to go direct would be cost of wine +cost of shipping + Australian WET and GST.

.... is actually reasonably easy to do, even if you don't have an importer's licence. Plenty of good shipping companies will take care of it all from Domaine, to Le Havre to Melbourne/Sydney Ports. I recommend Seaway. The other alternative is to tag along with someone else, combined freight will make it cheaper, indeed if you can find enough volume for your own container, then it's dirt cheap. As you have been there, you will probably know the ex-cellar prices and realise how absurd the cost is of purchasing Burgundy in Australia.
.... my advice would be to put that question to google, and you are on your way.

[Willard]

2006 Vincent Girardin Chevalier Montrachet
..
Share with true friends

This is great.

[WAwineguy]

Does anyone buy Burgundy direct from a domaine and ship it to Australia? I went though there on holidays recently and have some favourites. They mention there is a company they all use there which can ship anywhere in world pretty much. Just wondering if people find this is the best way to go. Or do you target wholesalers or importers? I imagine my costs if I were to go direct would be cost of wine +cost of shipping + Australian WET and GST.

Don't forget the import duty. In my experience, overall cost including shipping will be around 52% of the wine's original cost, depending on the value of the wine: Import duty 5%, WET 29%, GST 10%, all compounded of course

[Mike Hawkins]

Does anyone buy Burgundy direct from a domaine and ship it to Australia? I went though there on holidays recently and have some favourites. They mention there is a company they all use there which can ship anywhere in world pretty much. Just wondering if people find this is the best way to go. Or do you target wholesalers or importers? I imagine my costs if I were to go direct would be cost of wine +cost of shipping + Australian WET and GST.

Don't forget the import duty. In my experience, overall cost including shipping will be around 52% of the wine's original cost, depending on the value of the wine: Import duty 5%, WET 29%, GST 10%, all compounded of course

When I’ve done it, it was 49.1% all up and that is calculated on wine cost plus transportation.

[felixp21]

yea, runs at about 49% of total cost.
so the 20 euro bottle of village wine (ex-cellar) that you buy in Australia for $100 will cost you about $44, give or take.
and of course, there is a thriving secondary market over there, you can add $20 per hundred and you can get just about whatever you want. (unless you are after cases of DRC, Rousseau etc, then the cost is more)

soon, hopefully, Aus will follow HK's lead, where shipping companies will start offering total transport for individuals who purchase their stuff in France or in the UK.... that will be awesome, really stuff the fat cat importers up.

[Con J]

Went out tonight with one of my wine groups and looked 2007 and 2009 red Burgundy.
I thought it would be like chalk and cheese between the two vintages but the wines we had were very hard to differentiate.
Started out with a Champagne then a bracket of whites, three brackets of reds and finished of with a sweetie.

I think just about all of us preferred the 07’s on the night.

NV Ulysse Collin Blanc de Noirs extra Brut

2010 Louis Moreau Les Clos Chablis, 3rd.
2010 Benoit Ente Puligny Montrachet village, WOTB.
2010 Louis Moreau Valmur Chablis, 2nd.

2007 de Montille Aux Thorey 1er Nuits St Georges.
2009 Dujac Morey St Denis 1er Cru.
2007 Dujac Morey St Denis 1er Cru.
2009 de Montille Aux Thorey 1er Nuits St Georges.

2007 Comte Armand Clos des Epeneaux.
2009 Comte Armand Clos des Epeneaux.

2009 Joseph Voillot Les Epenots 1er Pommard.
2009 de Courcel Grand Clos de Epenots 1er Pommard.
2009 Parigot Les Epenots 1er Pommard.

2005 JJ Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Auslese Goldkapsel.

Cheers Con.

[felixp21]

back home to the heat, but not before some lovely Burgs up in Port Douglas. I had forgotten how superb FNQ is in the middle of winter.

2009 Bouchard Meursault 1er Cru Les Perrieres white peach, butter and river pebbles. Fabulous wine 94
2005 Lucien le Moine Batard Montrachet wine of the trip, might be the best Batard I have seen. Indescribable, extraordinary fruit. 99
2011 Coche Dury Meursault still young, tight, lots of matchstick action. Good length. 93
2007 Fontaine Gagnard Batard Montrachet refused to come out and play, nice fruit, but blown away by the LLM Batard. 90
2008 Domaine Leflaive pm 1er Cru Pucelles. What a shock!! This was premoxed.
2004 Raveneau Chablis GC Les Clos lemon and butter, precise and pure, long and complex. A show-stopper with lobster. 96


2002 Arnoux Echezeaux coming along nicely, still needs about 3-4 years, very very dark-fruited and big. 93+
2002 Arnoux VR 1er Cru Suchots stupendous, I still reckon he is the best producer in this vineyard, just coming into prime 95
2002 Sirugue VR 1er Cru Les Petits Monts stunning surprise, sweet fruits, spice and wonderful length. Bizarrely good for it's level 95
2002 Rousseau GC 1er Cru Clos St Jacques beautiful pure wine, red fruit with a touch of candy. Polished. 93
2002 Fourrier GC 1er Cru Clos St Jacques before Jean Marie came good (around 2005), nothing special, but a nice wine. More dark-fruited. 89
2002 Grivot Clos de Vougeot another very big wine in need of more time, dark and rich, still very primary. Hold, Hold. 91++
2002 Rene Engel Echezeaux now selling at around $1500, which is just plain stoopid. OK wine, nothing more. 89

[michel]

We did a Suchots tasting a few years ago and the Arnoux was streets ahead

[felixp21]

We did a Suchots tasting a few years ago and the Arnoux was streets ahead

yep, you bet!!! Sadly, the prices are starting to reflect the sublime quality.

[felixp21]

2010 La Poussed d'Or Volnay 1er Cru Clos de la Bousse d'Or
absolutely wonderful young volnay. Bright red fruits, cherries, strawberries, a hint of liquorice, minerals and violets. Strikingly beautiful perfume, great length and super complexity. Very young, but is now certainly approachable. This will be a stunner in another five years. 94pts, drink 2023-2040.

[michel]

midweek dinner

2012 boillot monopole clos de la mouchere
premox
2008 dujac clos de la roche
2008 clos de lambray
both had edgy wonderful perfume that blossomed
no rush to drink but they offer so much now

2008 oliver bernstein bonnes marres
broody deep introspective and building into a wonderful masculine wine

2015 clos de tart
brilliant wine with piercing fruit
just too young

byo to Wolfe in Brisbane
definitely worth the princely sum of $90 dollar
glass ware and service was spot on

[Michael McNally]

byo to Wolfe in Brisbane
definitely worth the princely sum of $90 dollar
glass ware and service was spot on

Thanks for the recommendation. BYO is a good excuse for a midweek dinner!

Cheers

Michael

[felixp21]

midweek dinner

2012 boillot monopole clos de la mouchere
premox
2008 dujac clos de la roche
2008 clos de lambray
both had edgy wonderful perfume that blossomed
no rush to drink but they offer so much now

2008 oliver bernstein bonnes marres
broody deep introspective and building into a wonderful masculine wine

2015 clos de tart
brilliant wine with piercing fruit
just too young

byo to Wolfe in Brisbane
definitely worth the princely sum of $90 dollar
glass ware and service was spot on

Nice drinking!!!
Agree, the 2015 Clos de Tart is sensational, blew me away when tasted from barrel a few years ago.