What is the most egregious wine pricing you have seen?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Just as I expected, a broadside.

Craig thought there was something wrong with being able to buy so many more bottles of wine from an iconic Clare Valley producer for the price of a bottle of a Hill of Grace. I'm sure he knows, as do most of us, that high prices are the result of limited production and high demand. What I take from his remarks is that the market, and hence the pricing of wines can be skewed. Nowhere did he say anything about greed.

Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

Well you’d be wrong again.

There has been plenty of mention of excessive pricing and profiting especially with Henschke. It’s an old chestnut here on Auswine.

Fair pricing for some is if a wine can be flipped for profit. I can see that point of view. I can also understand a winemaker wanting the profit.

Some folks arguments to me seem hypocritical when they themselves profit from certain icon wines at auction. And cry foul the price rises driven by this same practice .

[Mike Hawkins]

Well you’d be wrong again.

There has been plenty of mention of excessive pricing and profiting especially with Henschke. It’s an old chestnut here on Auswine.

Fair pricing for some is if a wine can be flipped for profit. I can see that point of view. I can also understand a winemaker wanting the profit.

Some folks arguments to me seem hypocritical when they themselves profit from certain icon wines at auction. And cry foul the price rises driven by this same practice .

I agree with some of your points, but the reality is ME and HoG are generally cheaper on auction than at retail, so there’s no flipper’s benefit with Henschke.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Well you’d be wrong again.

There has been plenty of mention of excessive pricing and profiting especially with Henschke. It’s an old chestnut here on Auswine.

Fair pricing for some is if a wine can be flipped for profit. I can see that point of view. I can also understand a winemaker wanting the profit.

Some folks arguments to me seem hypocritical when they themselves profit from certain icon wines at auction. And cry foul the price rises driven by this same practice .

Really, I'm wrong in saying that Craig never mentioned "the greedy Henschke". Show me where he did.

There may well be comments about the price of Henschke's wines, as there are about the prices of Penfold's. In fact forums around the world have gripes about the price of Bordeaux, Burgundy, and a whole host of other wines. This is nothing new. It is arrogent beyond belief for you to suggest that people on this forum don't think that a winemaker needs to make a profit. Show me one post, one post, where there is a suggestion that a winemaker shouldn't make a profit.

I'm sorry to say you're off the mark on this score.

Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

I could bore and match your semantics and actualky ask where did I say Craig accused Henschkes of being greedy in my post in question?

So why don’t we just ask Craig the question ? Are Henschke greedy doubling the price of Mt Ed or matching HofG with Grange?

Semantics and waffle aside , my interpretation of sentiments seems pretty clear . It comess up every few weeks.

The issue runs deep . Henschke could have gone down the road of Wendouree / Rockford and pleased the small Adelaide market which hunts for a bargain . Instead , they seem to have launched toward a major family brand with international recognition growing daily - on the back of HofG and Mt Ed.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Mr Bahrain,

You can ask Craig the question if you want. However you should understand that semantics is not the issue here. Craig said that it was strange one could buy almost two dozen bottles of Wendouree for the price of a bottle of Henschke. In the very next post I agreed that it was indeed strange. However I cautioned Craig about who he said that to and sure enough in the very next post a sycophant of Henschke posts the following (in case I'm being too subtle, that's you Mr Bahrain):

Yes it should be $100 a bottle so I can sell it for massive profit in Asia - making personal financial gain instead of those greedy Henschkes.

This is not semantics, it is suggestive. There is a difference. If you did not mean to suggest it then you should say so and apologize to Craig for suggesting it.

If that were not enough you went on to say:

Fair pricing for some is if a wine can be flipped for profit. I can see that point of view. I can also understand a winemaker wanting the profit.

This comment supposes that people who question the high price of some wines are only interested in flipping the wine for profit. For a polite forum I consider this below the belt. I've already said something about the second sentence but you have chosen to ignore it.

And now, for the piece de la resistance, your words:

Henschke could have gone down the road of Wendouree / Rockford and pleased the small Adelaide market which hunts for a bargain . Instead , they seem to have launched toward a major family brand with international recognition growing daily - on the back of HofG and Mt Ed.

By saying this you are also saying that that Wendouree and Rockford might well have gone down the road that Henschke did. This suggests that their wines are as good as Henschke's, which is why I believe that Craig thought it strange that one could buy so many more bottles of Wendouree for the price of a single bottle of Henschke.

Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

Relax . More of your endless waffle and semantics and by your own admission you were baiting ! It’s plane weird. I don’t understand what you are on about most of the time and you seem to be getting aggressive.

“By saying this you are also saying ...... “

No I’m not . I think this is a problem of yours but anyways . In my long experience with all the wineries world-wide demand was a consideration for only one of the wineries and this first noted 25 years ago by auction houses and retailers . Henschke could have looked after their old faithful in a manner such as Rockford’s and Wendouree. They tried. Actually I know a few long term customers and they do get looked after though they pay for it. This is a source of frustration by those left behind in the 80s.

[George Krashos]

Let's cut the crap and say it the way it is. Henschke gouge on price because they can. They have a willing market of cashed up individuals here and overseas who buy their wines at whatever price they see fit to charge. Their cost of production for their icon wines - noting that they own the vineyards and don't buy in grapes - is miniscule for the price they charge per bottle. It's a great thing for Henschke and the rich people who love buying their wine. Ordinary consumers shouldn't complain if they can't afford their wines, but by the same token they can quite rightly consider that the owners are greedy given the massive mark up on their products. To each their own.

[Mahmoud Ali]

George, no doubt about it, your forthrigtness (is that a word?) is admirable, and refreshing. You are on the mark regarding the cost of production and no lesser a person than Jancis Robinson has written about it. And you are right, some people do complain about it but others, like the protagonist on this post, genuflect at the altar of Henscke and other icon wines. For the record I was also one of those who admired Henschke wines and on my first visit to the Barossa made it a point to cycle 20 km to visit their cellar door. However the Henschke's decided a long time ago that they weren't interested in consumers like me and, in the words of Mr Bahrain, "ordinary consumers". Apparently consumers who can afford to are "looked after" which, if you think about it, isn't surprising at all. However, I don't think it is unrealistic for people to occasionally observe the wide disparity in prices among quality wines.

As for Mr Bahrain, he believes he was "baited" so all I can say is that he has a very low threshold in that regard.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

Let's cut the crap and say it the way it is. Henschke gouge on price because they can. They have a willing market of cashed up individuals here and overseas who buy their wines at whatever price they see fit to charge. Their cost of production for their icon wines - noting that they own the vineyards and don't buy in grapes - is miniscule for the price they charge per bottle. It's a great thing for Henschke and the rich people who love buying their wine. Ordinary consumers shouldn't complain if they can't afford their wines, but by the same token they can quite rightly consider that the owners are greedy given the massive mark up on their products. To each their own.

I think that’s a very local perspective . If Henschke didn’t charge a high price, people will flip the wine at a profit . Is this being greedy? I recall the single bottle cellar door limit for the 93HofG and a bus load turning up with flippers organising their flock.

So who’s greedy again? The flipper, the winemaker or even the ordinary punter who brags about flogging his Hensckes off at profit on the secondary market a few investment cycles down the track?

I genuinely adore Henscke wines of old. They have a house style though for my palate their Eden Valley origins had shades of complexity that stood them out from the Valley floor. What I liked in the wines when I started drinking them 30 years ago, on reflection , are similar to attributes in other wines from other regions I started drinking when my opportunities broadened. These wines too have shot through the roof!

This brings me to the price doubling of Mt Ed. After laying on tastings of Mt Ed and seeing it outperform HofG and the French top guns half the time when at maturity ; as well as noting reactions from international drinkers , I stated it was destined to be a $200 wine in no time . This was 5 yeas prior the hike . I also knew Henschke were spending a fortune in the vineyard .

My measure of their greed was if they were “gouging” Aussie consumers only - a point to follow ! The price rise was international in my observation when the UK / Europe offers came along a few months later as well as the always expensive Asian retail .

Who is more greedy? Henschke ? For charging market demand and preferring profits to themselves as opposed to the flipper on the coach and his wine mules? Or other Aussie producers who charge locals crazy premiums though sell their wine abroad far cheaper?

I think the real gouging is done by others who don’t have universal demand for their wines . This month a few favourites of the SA crowd, local wineries with wines in the top echelons of Langtons and charging > $200 AUD for their Shiraz , had interesting offers in Asia. Their $200 + wines landed for $70. So I’ll flog my gear off to locals at $240 a bottle but sell it for $40 to Asian retailers?

If you break it down with the global perspective , Henscke to me are victims of the politics of envy .

I also think it’s a mistake to say only the rich can afford Henscke. The international rise of a middle class will fuel much of the demand . Perhaps this is also the reason we have this thread with a crazy rise in Australian premiums many without a vintage history nor wide demand .

[sjw_11]

I also think it’s a mistake to say only the rich can afford Henscke. The international rise of a middle class will fuel much of the demand .

Jamie, with all due respect, if you think the "middle class" (particularly on an international scale) are buying $200+ wines (given this discussion was really about Mt Ed and HoG)... Then really I am speechless.

[JamieBahrain]

the social group between the upper and working classes, including professional and business people and their families.

Without a doubt I do !


I recall reading a demographic paper on the rise of the workd’s middle class wealth and it was extraordinary its effects on luxury consumerism . The effects on business were to be significant and I guess it’s pretty relevant to this thread .

Globally, the perspective is perhaps even more dramatic than Australia where a middle class can be subdivided and is burdened by high taxation, cost of living and house prices.

Perhaps the finance folks have more of an idea. In my observations professionals drink a lot of fine wine !

[Ian S]

For me it's not a question of whether Henschke or flippers are greedy. It's just that the top end of most wine regions have spiraled out of control in recent years.

I can remember Grange at GBP25 in 1990, and felt it pricey, but fairly priced. I daresay HOG would have been more like GBP22 at the time. At the time 'commodity wines' would have been GBP3-4. Fast forward to today, and those commodity wines have ~ doubled, whereas Grange and HOG are much more than 10x that price.

The same increases are seen in 1st Growth Bdx, DRC, Roumier, G. Conterno Monfortino etc. etc. The most prestigious are not about value, that's long gone. If you have the money and you love them (or in some cases love to be seen loving them), then they may make sense as a purchase. For the rest of the planet, it can look like madness / conspicuous consumption / loadsamoney (but then the vast majority of the population would look at AUD50+ spent on a bottle of wine as ludicrous, so it's all relative!).

Regards
Ian

[asajoseph]

Another perspective here, which is at least true in Europe (I'm less familiar with the economics / politics down here): a rising tide will lift all boats.

Yes, I think we all yearn for the days when classified growths, GC Burgundy etc were accessible to all, but that ship has well & truly sailed. Wine is a scarce commodity, and increased demand can only result in increased prices somewhere in the chain. I hold no ill will to the Henschkes, the de Villaines, the Rothshchilds or whoever it might be for cashing in on creating such a high quality product. I'd like to drink more of it, and maybe someday I will, but for now, I'm grateful that their success has encouraged so many others to invest in making high quality wines (currently) available for much more modest prices, and encouraged critics to look for, champion, and indirectly therefore improve the wines of lesser known regions.

[sjw_11]

Jamie, with all due respect, if you think the "middle class" (particularly on an international scale) are buying $200+ wines (given this discussion was really about Mt Ed and HoG)... Then really I am speechless.

the social group between the upper and working classes, including professional and business people and their families.

Without a doubt I do !


I recall reading a demographic paper on the rise of the workd’s middle class wealth and it was extraordinary its effects on luxury consumerism . The effects on business were to be significant and I guess it’s pretty relevant to this thread .

Globally, the perspective is perhaps even more dramatic than Australia where a middle class can be subdivided and is burdened by high taxation, cost of living and house prices.

Perhaps the finance folks have more of an idea. In my observations professionals drink a lot of fine wine !

I honestly don't know where to begin with this... I am genuinely flabergasted.

According to, for example, the Pew institute, in the USA (a much bigger consumer market than Oz) the middle class constitute households between 67% and 200% of the median income. That is, those with a household income of $35,000-$99,999. With all due respect Jamie, I would guess your annual wine budget alone might get into the bottom end of that range...

In terms of China in particular, you are correct there has been a significant rise in the number of people considered "middle class". According to McKinsey, the percentage of urban dwellers considered middle class has risen from just 4% in 2000 to a predicted 76% by 2022. How much money do these middle class people have? McKinsey uses a range of 75,000 to 280,000 yuan ($11,500 to $43,000) per year. According to ChinaPower, the Chinese government defines incomes ranging from 60,000 to 500,000 yuan per year ($7,250 to $62,500) to define middle class.

Certainly, the created wealth in markets like particularly China has driven proper luxury spending. But it has come from the equivalent of the 1% (or the 0.1%), not from the "middle class". I am not even going to talk about India, where the top 1% still makes only $20,000 per year on average, per the Economist, who noted "India has a hole where its middle class should be".

Of course, some middle class (developed/upper income) nation residents will indeed buy expensive wine, just as others will over-leverage for a motor bike, or save nothing while going on a cruise every year. The crowd you mix in is likely to mean you meet such people disproportionately.

But to honestly talk sincerely about middle class households regularly quaffing $200 bottles of wine such that they are a key driver of demand... looks to me like a staggering lack of awareness of your own fortunate position in life. I apologise if that seems rude, but I cannot see any other way to understand it.

If you really mean upper-middle or say the equivalent of US households earning $150K-$200K (which by the way is only around 6.6% of the US population), then sure - more of them will buy such wine. But honestly, from many years spent working in an investment bank where virtually everyone was in or above that category, I still can't name more than a couple of people who would ever spend that much (though doubtless their average price per bottle was much higher than the market average)...

[sjw_11]

I'm grateful that their success has encouraged so many others to invest in making high quality wines (currently) available for much more modest prices, and encouraged critics to look for, champion, and indirectly therefore improve the wines of lesser known regions.

Very well said Asajoseph, I agree with this completely.

I think the exception is probably Burgundy, where nothing else yet compares. But luckily I don't have that particular bug.

[Polymer]

I don't think Jamie is suggesting the middle class buys a $200 bottle as a quaffer..but do they buy them? Some do...in cultures where expensive gifts or things like that are looked at as a status symbol it would be even more common.

People on this board spend that on wine....plenty of people in the US that would be classified as middle or upper middle class also spend that on wine..if they're into wine. And again, that doesn't even take into account the "face" of certain cultures where they're trying to look like they have more money than they do.

[sjw_11]

I don't think Jamie is suggesting the middle class buys a $200 bottle as a quaffer..but do they buy them? Some do...in cultures where expensive gifts or things like that are looked at as a status symbol it would be even more common.

People on this board spend that on wine....plenty of people in the US that would be classified as middle or upper middle class also spend that on wine..if they're into wine. And again, that doesn't even take into account the "face" of certain cultures where they're trying to look like they have more money than they do.

Polymer, what Jamie originally said was:

I also think it’s a mistake to say only the rich can afford Henscke. The international rise of a middle class will fuel much of the demand . Perhaps this is also the reason we have this thread with a crazy rise in Australian premiums many without a vintage history nor wide demand .

The statement he made was not that some middle class people would buy it, but that they would "fuel demand".

Purchasing one bottle a year to give as a gift, or a few wine lovers who spend too much is hardly going to "fuel demand".

But honestly, I struggle to believe that many of the Chinese middle class trying to afford the high costs of housing in the major cities and earning maybe $20-30K per annum equivalent would really be able to afford $200 bottles of wine no matter how much they wanted to curry favour.

I would say there is a fair part of the so-called middle class in Oz or the US living pay check to pay check who would likewise scoff at suggestion they can afford this wine, let alone that they are typical buyers of it... Love to do the market research to ask the question of a sample of "middle class" aussie consumers "what is the most you have spent on a bottle of wine?" ... my prediction would be around $50...

[sjw_11]

Love to do the market research to ask the question of a sample of "middle class" aussie consumers "what is the most you have spent on a bottle of wine?" ... my prediction would be around $50...

So what evidence is out there?

As of 2013, Neilsen presented data showing the average price of table wine in the US was $6.30...

The Wine Market Council's research of the same year showed that for restaurant purchases even for a weekend dinner with friends, only 7% of respondents would consider spending >$100 on wine (and surveys like this always have an upwards skew because people want to impress the interviewer and there is no downside risk to saying you spend more than you really do!)

In a 2015 study by Thach and Olsen in the Wine Economics journal, even among respondents to the survey who regularly drank wine (which is roughly 30% of the total population according to other research) roughly 1/3rd said they would spend around $15 for a wine to be consumed at home, a further 38% said they would spend less than $10, and only 27% said would typically spend more than $15.

Ah, here is a good stat from the Wine Market Council- only 5% of the US population ever buys wine over $20. That's $20, not $200. Even among active wine drinkers, their stats suggest only 12% purchase wine over $50. https://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2014/02/who- ... 20-dollars

Then there is a 2017 survey of US wine drinkers by Wine Opinions for Wine Australia. This survey featured 87% high frequency wine drinkers (i.e. drink wine more than once a week) ... even among this selective peer group, 63% of respondents buy wine over $30 several times a year or less, and 14% would never buy wine over $30. https://www.wineaustralia.com/getmedia/2a929 ... Report-1-7

What about the UK? Well, figures from the WSTA suggest 13% of regular UK wine drinkers pay more than £7 per bottle... But this might be quite an old survey (2008) http://www.wsta.co.uk/press/478-research-sh ... nk-at-home

What about China? Well according to Wine Intelligence of urban middle-class imported wine drinkers (i.e. this is already a massive bias towards those who consume) only half were even aware of Australia as a wine-producing country.


Guys, we are incredibly niche in our interest in wine and many of us are also niche in terms of financial resources... don't extrapolate that to the whole world.

[JamieBahrain]

Did I say the middle class quaffed Mt Edelstone ?

I said the rise of the middle class fuelled a demand that was relevant to this thread . Did I say the Indian middle class fuelled this demand or the urbanisation of Mainland rural poor ?

I sense reverse snobbery here more than anything . Middle class people drink fine wine not irregularity in my experience . I hinted at the bands of middle class and differing levels of costs of living in polite enough detail.

The rise of the middle class is so obvious it’s under your nose . I’m in the travel game and demand is insatiable and Asia is under environmental siege with tourist areas unable to cope .

I’ve plenty of middle class friends who’d consider wine forums a bore yet they drink fine wine . Not as niche as you’d think .

[Polymer]

I know plenty of people in China..all of whom are middle class...and for the ones that are a bit into wine, they've spent 200+ on wine...Not often, but they have. 10 years ago (in taking inflation into account) that would've been unthinkable...20 years ago impossible...This same middle class is buying $2000 Louis Vuitton bags and $1000 iPhones...If it gives them the status they're looking for they'd be willing to do it (BTW, I'm not suggesting Mt Ed does that..just saying it isn't beyond their means to do it).

I have plenty of friends in the US...and the ones that are middle class...most have spent 200 on wine and most of them are not into wine. Do they do it often? No..I'm not comparing them to Auswine...They don't even know much about wine but that isn't preventing them from buying something like Opus One for 250 USD....

We're interpreting "fuel demand" quite differently...for sure I didn't interpret that as a quaffer statement...but worldwide you add a million people with more means and more information (which I'd argue has fueled wine prices more than anything else) and that changes the calculation...Do I think there is going to be a run on Mt Ed? No...Do I think Jamie is overly bullish on it? Yes...by a lot...

[JamieBahrain]

Thx Polymer . We’ve made they same observations .

And in the old Halliday books you’d see the export markets where Aussie fine wine was bought by the middle class and perhaps the rich . This before the massive rise of Asian wealth .

[sjw_11]

Alright guys, pointless discussion when actual data is met with "But my friends..." and "Old Halliday books..."

Carry on as you like.

[JamieBahrain]

It’s a topic that seems to make you antsy .

You may me right . Only a percentage of the upper middle class on 100 K USD + a year drink fine wine . But that population base has increased rapidly. Especially what we are loosely terming the upper middle.

Who drinks all the fine wine then ? Just rich people ? Or to you are upper - middle class the rich ?

[Mahmoud Ali]

This brings me to the price doubling of Mt Ed. After laying on tastings of Mt Ed and seeing it outperform HofG and the French top guns half the time when at maturity ; as well as noting reactions from international drinkers , I stated it was destined to be a $200 wine in no time . This was 5 yeas prior the hike . I also knew Henschke were spending a fortune in the vineyard.

Earlier in this thread you were quite adamant that no wine around $50 (full retail or discount) at maturity could ever match the Hill of Grace in a blind tasting. Now you say that the Mt Edelstone, at full maturity, can outperform the Hill of Grace. Therefore, ipso facto, it should be fair to assume that you must also maintain the position that no $50 Aussie Shiraz, also at full maturity, can outperform a Mt Edelstone.

Cheers ................ Mahmoud.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Alright guys, pointless discussion when actual data is met with "But my friends..." and "Old Halliday books..."

Carry on as you like.

I can undesrtand why you might call this a "pointless discussion" since credible opinions are met with derisive remarks and the use statistics are met with personal anecdotes and the incredibly fatuous "I'm in the travel game". Describing other forum member's opinions and arguments as semantics, anger, endless waffle, antsy, reverse snobbery, and the politics of envy is merely a tactic of evasion. It's childish and unbecoming of a forum dedicated to all things vinuous.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[Polymer]

Alright guys, pointless discussion when actual data is met with "But my friends..." and "Old Halliday books..."

Carry on as you like.

Sam,

No offense but you're reading the data the way you want...you quoted Pew on a 2 person household for example because 99k/year sounds much lower than the 141k generally reported as the upper limit of a 4 person household..

Or looking at the average spend on wine which is irrelevant..because that's across the entire demographic of wine drinkers rather than taking into the account the number in that demographic that will spend that much money...and factually, has spent that amount of money if you look at the price increases in fine wine which has outpaced inflation.

And none of the "data" takes into account the cultural aspects of the Chinese. By your logic, these middle class families (of which there are many millions of) don't have the disposal income where they'd be willing to spend 200 on an expensive bottle of wine...Yet factually some do...just as they spend money buying a 2k handbag, 10k watch, 1k iPhone, etc...because for them that disposable income isn't going into sending their kids to play sports or buy lots of little things...it goes into something that will give other people the impression they have a lot of money - Your research should be showing you this.

But let's take your data...% look small...but the actual number of people is huge..

The wine-searcher article..US population..only 5% buy wine over 20 dollars (which they've said is the same group that buys 100 dollar bottles).

5% of 327 Million is 16.3 Million consumers..that are considered high end buyers. So that's your target market...Just in the US.

None of your data would indicate there isn't a huge market out there that spends money on wine...or that a growing middle class in status hungry countries wouldn't spend money on a $200 bottle of wine. Is that a small %? Of course it is..very small...but how big is that number?

Well if depending on how you classify it, China has about 400 million people in their middle class...So if we just take the top 20% of those as people with the means to afford an LV Bag, iPhone and a $200 bottle of wine...that's 80 million...obviously not everyone would buy wine but as gifts, they do...but it gives you an idea of how many people that might be. But lets just say it is 20% of that number so 16 Million.

So just the USA and China combined have 32 Million consumers that buys bottles in this range...granted the US number includes upper class while the China number does not...but this is the number of consumers for high end wine in just those two countries...

Keep in mind that while the US middle class might've been relatively flat..the CHINA Middle class has grown tremendously....So even if that 16 Million number above is too high..let's say half of that, which is 8 million. 8 Million NEW consumers to a market place...what is the impact of that?

Whether or not that goes to Mt Ed, who knows...but as far as potential NEW buyers of a $200 bottle...you have a ton of them..and that changes the dynamic and the pricing...as it already had. There is little to no research on this but there are tons of newly educated wine drinkers out there which is part of the reason why prices have changed so much. Before, there just weren't the sources of information out there where you could learn about different wines or even find them...The Internet has changed that and increased the number of actual wine knowledgeable people..even semi wine knowledgeable people...

You're quoting data but you've try to crowbar the data to try to illustrate YOUR point not what the data says...but any reasonable analysis and deep dive into what your data actual says would show you've used it incorrectly...

[JamieBahrain]

[looks to me like a staggering lack of awareness of your own fortunate position in life. I apologise if that seems rude, but I cannot see any other way to understand it.

Wow Mahmoud. I admire your vendetta

Looks antsy to me but perhaps I’m taking this swipe too personal . I’ll certaibly wind back my contributions to the buying thread and will only report on middle class accessible wines . The latter won’t change much because from 5 min on google I’d dispute the middle class being limited to some of the wages quoted .


On your next comment If we are to drag that up again didn’t it end with me asking for your own personal experience and naming of a $50 Mt Edelstone / HofG substitute .

[JamieBahrain]

Only 2% of Australians see themselves as upper class. That leaves a lot of very wealthy middle class when you consider wages and the number of million dollar suburbs/streets.

So I ask again ? Who drinks premium wine ? Who drinks all the Penfolds in China? The upper class?

[Ddavew]

Only 2% of Australians see themselves as upper class. That leaves a lot of very wealthy middle class when you consider wages and the number of million dollar suburbs/streets.

So I ask again ? Who drinks premium wine ? Who drinks all the Penfolds in China? The upper class?

tao bao sellers and alibaba scammers?