Rockford's Kind Gesture

[TiggerK]

It's same old debate again, but for me TCA is not the main issue with corks, it's the variability, how are they going to improve that I wonder? I doubt there will be any real shift back to corks personally, certainly one or two (mainly for marketing purposes), but how can you blame the screwcap for abnormal development when you haven't tested 3 other identical bottles under cork? Only to find one of the cork ones is better (touch more ingress), one is worse (too much ingress), and one has TCA!! I also remain cynically unconvinced they'll eliminate TCA 100% in a natural product without drastic intervention as well, isn't that what DIAM was supposed to be?

What ever happened to these mythical variable ingress screwcaps anyway??? Are they even an option for winemakers??

[bdellabosca]

Jamie is correct, the use of cork is on the rise, though the definition of "massive" may be dabatable.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tmullen/2018/02 ... 1d573f6c5d

https://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/corks-fight-back

Mahmoud.

Hi Mahmoud,

Apologies in advance as I don't mean to offend but I'm not sure either of the articles support Jamie statement that: "In 5 years time there will be a massive return to cork by those less stubborn in Oz."

The Forbes article is essentially an "aren't we good" PR article for a cork producer / member association (if I was cynical I would assume it was a paid article / advertisement) and states cork sales are increasing , quoting a 4% annual export growth on average since the industry low point. It does go on to say "Reasons for this shift to an increase in sales during the past decade include an aggressive, focused effort to reduce cork contamination, as well as a robust interest in the use of cork within Asian markets." But it does not make any statement that it is due to a "return" to cork. We do not know if the "export" increase is value or volume so higher prices (i.e. for higher quality cork) may hide decreased volumes behind increased value. Additionally, if the growth in bottled wine is greater than 4% per annum (see comment from the JR article below) then cork is actually decreasing in overall market share.

The JR article only states: "At one time it looked as though the cork industry was under threat, but thanks to the rapid growth of bottled wine in both the US and China, the dominant natural cork supplier Amorim of Portugal has seen six consecutive years of sales growth." Which I don't think supports a "return" to corks, but instead suggests corks have participated in the overall growth in the volume of bottled wines being sold (I.e. it does not state that it thinks vineyards who were using screwcaps are returning to cork).

I do not know if there is a "return" to cork, I am just pointing out for the benefit of the discussion that these articles referenced appear to be unclear on that point.

Regards
Ben

[bdellabosca]

There will be a swing back to the 100% TCA free cork with a number premium Australian producers. In terms of massive and our bet, I suggest at least a half dozen now screw-capped wines on the Langton's Classification will revert back.

Hi Jamie, if you are willing to clarify the bet to reflect the presumption that it is a 'net return' to cork so it is worded as "the number of wines under cork on the latest available Langton's Classification as at 31 March 2023 will be 12 greater than the number under cork on the latest Langton's Classification available as at 31 March 2018, on the basis the total number of wines in the Langton's Classification is unchanged between those dates" I will make that bet with you (i.e. I don't think it will come to pass) for anything between "nil (i.e. pride only ) and up to $10,000. I'm good for it...

Let me know if you are interested and what wager you would like.

[Scotty vino]

From the AGE...

Penfolds may pull the plug on corks
By Frank Walker
December 26, 2004

The unspeakable might be just around the corner.

Defying long tradition, Penfolds is testing screw caps on its revered Grange red wine.

Chief winemaker Peter Gago has swapped corks for screw caps in the 2000 vintage, which sells for $450 a bottle. But the company will not take further steps towards screw caps until the test bottles have been cellared for 20 years.

"Until the effects screw caps have on the long-term cellaring of wines have been fully explored, Penfolds will not be releasing any of its premium bin or super premium wines, including Penfolds Grange, under screw cap," Mr Gago said.

Penfolds' first move towards screw caps comes as other wines are increasingly favouring the newer technology.

Screw caps, once thought of as only for cheap and nasty wines, are now on top-of-the-range reds and whites - close to 20 per cent of Australian bottled wine.

Although many imbibers love the convenience of the screw cap, it is creating a huge division among wine connoisseurs. Many say only snob value and ignorance are keeping the cork in wine bottles. But others say only the cork can age a wine to maturity.

Wine Society chief executive Mark Purbrick said there would always be a place for cork, and there were still doubts about how well screw caps can perform over 30 to 40 years. "The jury is out, but don't forget cork is really only rated for 15 to 18 years, anyway, and wines that are even 40 years under cork are fine. "Top wines like Grange Hermitage could be screw caps some day, but it will be five to 10 years away."

Charles Sturt University Winery is putting its wines under screw caps after tests found screw cap wines from 1977 had retained their freshness and vitality.

"Screw cap seals ensure greater protection against random oxidation, which is most important in cellaring of premium red wine," said marketing manager Graham Cossey.

Wine writer Huon Hooke said he had just tasted two bottles of Henschke Hill of Grace shiraz, one cork and one screw cap. "The cork was a bit dull but the screw cap was pristine," he said. "That happens every time you taste one against the other. Screw caps are now accepted by the industry and consumers. There are a few traditionalists who refuse to drink wine in screw caps, and that is their prerogative."

[Ozzie W]

What ever happened to these mythical variable ingress screwcaps anyway??? Are they even an option for winemakers??

Not a myth. Been available for some time now. Stelvin screwcaps currently available (since 2013) in 4 versions with varying OTR. The Stelvin 1O2 has an OTR of less than 0.0005 ppm O2 per day, 3O2 is 0.0005 ppm, 5O2 is 0.005 ppm, and 7O2 is 0.05 ppm. Prior to 2013 Stelvin was only available in 1O2 and 5O2.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYoHZSH5oSk[/url]
[url]https://www.amcor.com/businesses/amcor-flexi ... vin-inside[/url]

Other screwcap manufacturers have similar offerings.

[TiggerK]

What ever happened to these mythical variable ingress screwcaps anyway??? Are they even an option for winemakers??

Not a myth. Been available for some time now. Stelvin screwcaps currently available (since 2013) in 4 versions with varying OTR. The Stelvin 1O2 has an OTR of less than 0.0005 ppm O2 per day, 3O2 is 0.0005 ppm, 5O2 is 0.005 ppm, and 7O2 is 0.05 ppm. Prior to 2013 Stelvin was only available in 1O2 and 5O2.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYoHZSH5oSk[/url]
[url]https://www.amcor.com/businesses/amcor-flexi ... vin-inside[/url]

Other screwcap manufacturers have similar offerings.

Thanks for the info Ozzie, I wonder if anyone is actually using them?

[JamieBahrain]

I can't follow all of you. But I try!

Apologies in advance as I don't mean to offend but I'm not sure either of the articles support Jamie statement that: "In 5 years time there will be a massive return to cork by those less stubborn in Oz."

I'm predicting the perfect cork will be a game changer.

It's same old debate again, but for me TCA is not the main issue with corks, it's the variability, how are they going to improve that I wonder?

Oxidation versus reductive maturation. I drink wide and far and I'm finding Old World drinkers lean toward appreciating sometimes excessively oxidative wines. Whereas on these forums people tend to accept new world wines aged in screw crap that are considered "fresh" though old world drinkers tend to see them as dreary. These are the extreme ends of the spectrum. With the "perfect" cork emerging I believe negatives in screw caps will be brought to light- exascerbated by modest new world wines.

The Age 2004 article

Where's Stephen Henschke on closures for HofG? I should know but I don't buy my beloved Henschke wines anymore.

and up to $10,000. I'm good for it

The bet was with Roger and I'd have to get a lawyer to look at your proposal.

I do agree, $100 is no fun. I'll suggest to Roger and old Barolo wine under cork the stakes from me- Roger a screw capped back vintage of one of his beautiful shiraz.

How do I quantify a massive return to cork in Australia? It can't be with cheapies and has to be premium- so the Langton's classification will see half a dozen reversals in 5 years to the "perfect" cork?

[TiggerK]

It's same old debate again, but for me TCA is not the main issue with corks, it's the variability, how are they going to improve that I wonder?

Oxidation versus reductive maturation. I drink wide and far and I'm finding Old World drinkers lean toward appreciating sometimes excessively oxidative wines. Whereas on these forums people tend to accept new world wines aged in screw crap that are considered "fresh" though old world drinkers tend. These are the extreme ends of the spectrum. With the "perfect" cork emerging I believe negatives in screw caps will be brought to light- exascerbated by modest new world wines.

But again I ask, putting TCA aside, how is the oxymoron that is a 'perfect cork' going to offer near zero variability? Answer, it won't, therefore we are back to square one with cork being far too inconsistent for ideal longer term cellaring.

I agree that some wines would show better had the screwcap offered a touch more air ingress over their cellaring lifetime, we see this sometimes when two of the same wines are compared after a few years, one SC, one cork (although results are still usually not 100% favouring the cork).

So would a variable transmission screwcap not be the ideal option? No TCA and a consistent and reliable transmission rate to avoid what you term reductive maturation?

[JamieBahrain]

I think this is your opinion and you want totally reductive maturation? Or you think the screw cap with ingress better?

[phillisc]

Lovely debate here chaps on the fringe of Easter, a few of us having a glance at the forum in between doing a bit of work. Finishing off a grant application, but Auswine is good relief to break the tedium.

Scotty V thanks for The Age...Grange release not far away then, and the powerful market up north will go for it like Johnny Walker.
Unless Wendouree, which has five wines in the classification, represents the bulk of your half dozen returning to the cork fray, then can't see it happening...what is more likely is an option between the two, bit like St Henri 2010 and 12 (I believe). It was the stelvin variety that leaped off the shelves and Uncle Dans and co had the corked versions sitting on the shop floor for a bloody long time.

Yes Jake, Tyson is spot on...Have 6 each of the 94 Seppelts Sparking Show under cork and crown seal. When I had one of each in 2014, corked variety was great, but nothing wrong with the crown seal either. The 07 which I got a few of is magnificent and under CS will go decades free without faults.

Agree with Tigger, if you are happy to have no faults in a case of wine (due to no presence of TCA) but the bottle variation is stark due to inconsistency in the natural elasticity/recoil of cork, over the years then good luck to you.
I would like to think as perhaps the majority here might do, that ALL wines opened now from a case or at a specified time and reflective of the vintage, all taste the the same, and re consistently without fault...and then in 5 years all taste a little different, but consistent, and in 10 years the same and so on...you get the picture.

Jamie as for the bet, it will never happen but it should
Going on what you do, where you live and the wines you buy, the wine circles you move in, $10 grand, is beer money, the proposal should be written on a coaster. Nothing surer that this thread will be bookmarked to be raised in 2023.

Anyway Roger might not fancy an old Italian under cork, but going on the 10+ year old wines that I tried of his last month under screw cap, they were sensational, and without any faults.

Cheers
Craig

[TiggerK]

I think this is your opinion and you want totally reductive maturation? Or you think the screw cap with ingress better?

I'm saying I want reliable maturation, without the possibility of potential reductive maturation. So I'm suggesting that using a screwcap that allows a very slightly higher ingress rate (as per Ozzie's post above) could possibly be an ideal closure instead of far too variable cork or near zero ingress standard SC.

[JamieBahrain]

There will be a claim that variation is reduced with the new super quality corks. Not just just TCA, but other areas of quality control have been considered.

The trials may need to be started again- with technological advances in both closures.

Screw cap is a loss of face for the Chinese luxury and gifting market?

Roger likes Italians and DOCG rules dictate corks.

[Ozzie W]

What ever happened to these mythical variable ingress screwcaps anyway??? Are they even an option for winemakers??

Not a myth. Been available for some time now. Stelvin screwcaps currently available (since 2013) in 4 versions with varying OTR. The Stelvin 1O2 has an OTR of less than 0.0005 ppm O2 per day, 3O2 is 0.0005 ppm, 5O2 is 0.005 ppm, and 7O2 is 0.05 ppm. Prior to 2013 Stelvin was only available in 1O2 and 5O2.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYoHZSH5oSk[/url]
[url]https://www.amcor.com/businesses/amcor-flexi ... vin-inside[/url]

Other screwcap manufacturers have similar offerings.

Thanks for the info Ozzie, I wonder if anyone is actually using them?

The Stelvin brand is very widely used in Australia. So they would be in common use. As they have a choice, I've always wondered which level of OTR the winemakers are choosing and why. Perhaps some of the winemakers who frequent this forum can shed some light on this?

[TiggerK]

Yes I mean who is using the higher transmission versions, not Stelvins in general!

Cheers
Tim

[bdellabosca]

No lawyers! Back of a beermat / trial by Auswine forum sounds way better for me.
The bottle of wine alternative is more fun / sporting anyway. I can offer up a bottle of 1999 Castello Banfi Brunello di Montalcino Riserva Poggio All'Oro (sealed with cork of course! Should be in a its drinking window sweet spot in 2023, cork gods permitting...) from my cellar as a poor cousin to try to match whichever old Italian you had in mind (the oldest Marius wines I have is 2010 Symphony which may not be old enough for you).

[Mahmoud Ali]

Jamie is correct, the use of cork is on the rise, though the definition of "massive" may be dabatable.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tmullen/2018/02 ... 1d573f6c5d

https://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/corks-fight-back.

Hi Mahmoud,

Apologies in advance as I don't mean to offend but I'm not sure either of the articles support Jamie statement that: "In 5 years time there will be a massive return to cork by those less stubborn in Oz."

The Forbes article is essentially an "aren't we good" PR article for a cork producer / member association (if I was cynical I would assume it was a paid article / advertisement) and states cork sales are increasing , quoting a 4% annual export growth on average since the industry low point. It does go on to say "Reasons for this shift to an increase in sales during the past decade include an aggressive, focused effort to reduce cork contamination, as well as a robust interest in the use of cork within Asian markets." But it does not make any statement that it is due to a "return" to cork. We do not know if the "export" increase is value or volume so higher prices (i.e. for higher quality cork) may hide decreased volumes behind increased value. Additionally, if the growth in bottled wine is greater than 4% per annum (see comment from the JR article below) then cork is actually decreasing in overall market share.

The JR article only states: "At one time it looked as though the cork industry was under threat, but thanks to the rapid growth of bottled wine in both the US and China, the dominant natural cork supplier Amorim of Portugal has seen six consecutive years of sales growth." Which I don't think supports a "return" to corks, but instead suggests corks have participated in the overall growth in the volume of bottled wines being sold (I.e. it does not state that it thinks vineyards who were using screwcaps are returning to cork).

I do not know if there is a "return" to cork, I am just pointing out for the benefit of the discussion that these articles referenced appear to be unclear on that point.

Hi Ben, no apologies needed at all. This is a wine forum and, like our tastes in wine, opinions may differ on other issues as well.

You make a very good point, that the growth in the use of cork since its nadir about a decade ago does not neccessarily mean wineries have "switched over" from screwcap to cork. You are right, the two articles do not directly support Jamie's contention that "there will be a massive return to cork". I have no idea what wineries who currently use screwcaps will do in the future however the fact that cork usage is on the increase suggests that some established and new wineries are chosing cork closures instead of screwcap. Whether this will in the end result in the "massive return" posited by Jamie is anybody's guess.

For my own part I have no problems with cork closures since I never did experience a one in ten or twelve failure rate. Though I buy less wine than I did before, I buy according to producer and reputation not closure.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[Mahmoud Ali]

PS: Has any winery in Australia or New Zealand reverted back to cork for any of its products?

[Ozzie W]

PS: Has any winery in Australia or New Zealand reverted back to cork for any of its products?

Greenock Creek reverted back to corks in 2014.

[bdellabosca]

... and are now are up for sale?
I'm sure there is no connection but I can't help but see some irony with that example presented.

[n4sir]

In 5 years time there will be a massive return to cork by those less stubborn in Oz.

Hi Jamie,

Quantify "massive" and I have $100 that says you're wrong.

Cheers,

Roger

Hi Roger

Publicly, Amorim is hoping to guarantee a TCA free cork by 2020.

Jamie, you should ask as mutual friend about what exactly Amorim's "TCA free" policy exactly mean. It's an ear-opener to say the least...

Australians deserve to be sceptical, we have heard too many so called "guarantees" in the past. We are still getting shitty corks that (by my count over 10 years) regularly rack up a failure rate of double or worse the supposed 1 in 20 dud rate the pro-cork lobby have spewed out year, after year, after year.

My 2c,
Ian

[Michael R]

Received the corkscrew today.
Rockford are very customer focused, and it’s lovely to be a part of it.

[RogerPike]

Hi Jamie,

Thank you for your kind and generous offer of staking an aged Barolo against a bottle of my humble wine.

However, I have decided to walk away from any wager and this thread.

The reasons are:

(a) This thread is moving in an adversarial direction and I don't really want to be part of it. Both sides appear to be entrenched in their beliefs, it is a little like persuading the Pope to deny the existence of God or getting an atheist to extol the wonder of the virgin birth.

(b) It hardly seems fair that a thread about the generosity of Rockford descends into adversarial chaos.

(c) I don't really care how most of the Langton's Classification seal their wines. Few of them interest me.

(d) The factor that could skew the issue is the Chinese market. On present trends many of Australia's premium wines will be exported to China over the next five years. All of those wines will be sealed with a cork. It is what the Chinese market demands, it has nothing to do with Australian consumer preference or what the winemaker considers to be the best closure for his wines.

(e) I would be so disappointed if that Barolo turned out to be corked

I doubt that you and I will ever find much common ground regarding closures but if you would like to come down this way when you are next in Adelaide maybe we could go to lunch (my shout) and I'll bring two bottles of my 2002 Shiraz (all wine in one tank at bottling plant, 50% bottled under cork and 50% under screwcap, an hour apart) and maybe we could drink them single blind and try to figure out which is which.

Cheers,

Roger

[Ian S]

Hi Roger
Yours is a very timely and sensible post. I'm sure we will return to this debate again, but it deserves its own thread, just as this one about Rockford deserved the same.
Regards
Ian

[ticklenow1]

I have to agree with Ian S, very well written Roger.

[via collins]

Well said Roger.

And what a cracking offer to make to Jamie - that would be about the best comparison available in Oz today to address the issue at the core of the discussion.

Would LOVE to hear the results if/when it happens.

Cheers,

[phillisc]

Yes agree Roger...and guilty as charged for a rambling epistle...have been known to do that

My final word that cork might be close to perfect but not consistently...and that's the issue.

Perhaps we could have a commencing thoughts of the day thread, or soapbox corner...might be a few lining up

And for Easter camping, an oxymoron really...they all laugh when I turn up with Riedels, Ah-So, decanter, funnel, sieve, but always enjoy the spoils
99 Wirra Angelus
90 E&E Magnum
97 Grilli Amarone?? Cab

Cheers
Craig

[Ian S]

Hi Craig
Yes, that definitely sounds like 'Glamping', but if you have the Primo 'Moda' there, you'll have a queue forming.
Regards
Ian

[JamieBahrain]

Rockford's kind gesture to very long term customers is a corkscrew! It's an implanted and brass-necked message on their position on cork I'd suggest.

I don't think any one on Krondorf rd will be offended with the thread- they probably wanted such. They must see as much passion from their customers at cellar door or via correspondence.

Thanks Roger for your response. I'm short on time this morning and it requires more consideration in response. Especially my personal position, with a huge amount of skin in the game, which isn't fixed on one side or the other. Also any misunderstanding about the wager, which was really banter as I expected to lose, and the offer of a Barolo was really just that. It wasn't an Old World drinker arrogance of any sort, that isn't me, as Mclaren Vale is a favourite at it's best.

[Redav]

I'm sure we will return to this debate again, but it deserves its own thread, just as this one about Rockford deserved the same.

Any idea whether these posts can be moved to say the Screw Caps thread? It's a bit of a shame that this thread went OT a little but I enjoy reading all sides to a discussion. Personally, I find this forum really good when it comes to expressions of opposing views. While it's clear what is being said, it's usually balanced, qualified and informative.

As for the the choice of enclosure, it's naturally an extension of the winemakers wine making intent and while I wouldn't want to fall foul of cork related issues (only once so far - amusingly a Rockford Semillon), I accept that it's their call and in the case of Rockford, I get the stance they've taken and find it hard to disagree.

[RogerPike]

Jamie,

No misunderstanding in your offer of a Barolo, I didn't see it as arrogant at all, just generous, perhaps my use of the adjective 'humble' seemed charged but wasn't intended.

I quite understand that Rockford's gesture was consistent with their values and a statement of their position. If screwcaps required a device I may well have done similar!

We all have skin in the game. I respect your personal position on closures, I just don't agree with you.

My offer of lunch stands.

Cheers,

Roger