Sydney - Wendouree and Friends Offline Fri Sept 29

[Bobthebuilder]

just kidding its the Chard

I was going to leave this a while just to see the reactions, but thats just too cruel

[Hacker]

Guys, it's been a while since we met, so hows about we catch up? As Wendouree is often on everyones lips, how about we revisit an old friend, perhaps with one or two alternates to mix things up.

La Mint, unless you think we have done it to death. https://www.lamint.com.au

Date.... Fri 29 Sept, 6:30 kickoff.
1. Hacker 1998 Wendouree Cab Malbec
2. Linsey-Anne 2014 Steinmetz Riesling
3. Tiggerk 2013 Wendouree Shiraz Mataro
4. Michael 2014 Wendouree Cab Malbec
5. dave vino 2015 Wendouree Shiraz
6. Andrewpc 2010 Wendouree Cab Sav
7. rooman 2003 Château Lafaurie-Peyraguey Sauternes
8. Bobthebuilder 1998 Wendouree Shiraz Mataro
9. Michelle 2001 LEAS Chardonnay
10. Lisette - roomans +1

[mse]

Hi all,

Just a friendly little reminder here, if anyone holds The Entertainment Card, please bring along. If memory serves me right, there is an offer for saving of up to 25% off (4 diners per card, up to $40-$45 savings per card). Have to maximise my savings at this day and age.

Cheers

Michael

[deejay81]

Sorry for the spam but we woke up feeling a lot better today so we may still come pending on how we hold up today.

I know being 50/50 is not ideal but if you could keep the spots for us that would be great!

I'll let you know again maybe after lunchtime....

[Hacker]

Good news Dave and Lauren!
Opened the 1998 Cab Malbec at 8am. Eucalyptus on the nose, strong mouth coating tannins dominating the fruit that fights for recognition. Hopefully will soften up by tonight.

[mse]

Good news Dave and Lauren!
Opened the 1998 Cab Malbec at 8am. Eucalyptus on the nose, strong mouth coating tannins dominating the fruit that fights for recognition. Hopefully will soften up by tonight.

Sounds salivating! I will definitely be the first one to jump onto this one!

[deejay81]

See you guys tonight!

Lauren dropped over the wine at the office so I could decant it.... no decanter so clean water jug will do...

Wendouree2001.jpg

Strong wall of drying tannin but still quite a bit of dark fruit in there... don't think it will need a huge decant... will prob rebottle in a couple of hours...

[Hacker]

Great night, as to be expected with the Sydney crew. Twelve keen participants went through a lot of wine. Not only Wendouree but many friends as well. I will let others with more experience than me give more detail but wines that rose above the scrum were 2001 Leeuwin Art Series Chardonnay, 2010 Wendouree Cab Sav, 2015 Wendouree Shiraz, and a ring in, 1996 Galah Shiraz. One that let the team down was the 2014 Wendouree Cab Malbec with a sneaky (but undeclared) 20% Shiraz component, which was disappointingly pedestrian, not recognizable in its declared form.
I have to declare I have been buying Wendouree since the 1990 vintage, and some (not many) years shine, like 1991. I have a hit rate of maybe one in five bottles. The rest are, well, disappointing. More than once I have purged my holdings only to read and hear of new vintages that excite, and I climb back into the saddle.
I think I am rambling at close to midnight, so I will sign off and collect my thoughts again tomorrow.

[Diddy]

One that let the team down was the 2014 Wendouree Cab Malbec with a sneaky (but undeclared) 20% Shiraz component, which was disappointingly pedestrian, not recognizable in its declared form.

Doesn't a 20% contribution have to be disclosed under Australian labelling laws?

[Hacker]

Tim recalled this mix from the Winefront website. We thought it would have to be declared, but it hasn't. Certainly was obvious compared to the other Cab Malbecs we had. I personally thought the Shiraz detracted from the final mix.

[Matt@5453]

One that let the team down was the 2014 Wendouree Cab Malbec with a sneaky (but undeclared) 20% Shiraz component, which was disappointingly pedestrian, not recognizable in its declared form.

Doesn't a 20% contribution have to be disclosed under Australian labelling laws?

Correct, the 20% should be nominated on the label under the LIP. The blend is 45% Cab, 35% Mal and 20% shiraz.

Hacker - based on your experience is the '14 CMS a drink now proposition or worth holding onto?

Good to hear about the '15 Shiraz, the general comments I have heard thus far it probably needs another ~12 months in bottle to come together, but should be a very good wine for the future.

[deejay81]

Another really great and fun night with the Sydney crew, and thanks Hacker for organising.

Didn't take any formal notes but my overall impression of the Wendourees probably left me liking them more than I did the last time possibly due to a more mature palate, but also could have been due to better bottle prep, but it is still not enough for me to seek out. I still think the majority are interesting and complex wines and great for discussion, particularly in an offline setting but none shown last night knocked my socks off. Will wait for someone to bring a 91 *nudges Hacker*.

The 98's were OK at best, and after Tim commented that he felt the cab/mal could be slightly tca'd I think I agree. There was some fruit to begin with but all flavours felt stripped the longer it went and I was just left with a drying feeling in the mouth.
Something was not right about Nic's Shz/Mat to me smelt porty possibly from heat and also the flavours did not seem right which could be from the cork.

Was interesting to see the stylistic change of the wines over the years. I think the 2010 Cab showed this style change best. It didn't have the complexity of some of the older wines, lacked acidity, and I don't think it will last 20 years even with the screwcap, but it sure tasted good right here right now.

The 14 cab/mal was a weird one, I wasn't a fan, and we were all surprised but not shocked when we found out there was about 20% shiraz that went into it (not in a good way). Don't really think bottle age will do anything either, but you never know.

The 15 Shiraz again was different to the others, I feel it is def one of the wines you can drink now (with some air) but has enough fruit and complexity to go for some time.

The friends were generally good. Hacker's 96 Galah was very good as was the 96 Riddoch which threw everyone I think. The whites showed well particularly the LEAS 01 which I thought felt a bit hot and oaky to start but got better as the night went on. I also liked the M3 and in contrast, the Pooley felt like a palate cleanser it was so light and fresh. The Rieslings were nice - 14 Stienmetz was a little simple but enjoyable but the 08 Kab was delicious. The Sauternes was a nice finish to the night.

To me the WWOTN was the 02 Grosset Polish Hill and the RWOTN was a tie between the 96 Galah and the 10 Wendouree Cab Sav.

Made some extended notes on the wines that Lauren and I brought:

2002 Paul Bara Champagne Special Club
Medium intensity, pale gold with fine persistent bubbles.

Apple pie, brioche, smokey, slatey, freshly baked bread on the nose.

Very pinot dominated flavours but also continued with the baked apples and minerals. Medium acid there but the finish was on the shorter side (medium minus). Would have liked to have tried more but only had a small pour.

From what I tasted, I don't think it's going anywhere so I'd say drink up from now and within 2-3 years or it could start to get a bit flabby. Good but not great. 90pts

2002 Grosset Riesling Polish Hill
Screwcapped.

Medium intensity pale yellow approaching pale gold.
Tiny bit of petrol which blew off quickly but also still has plenty of fresh lemons transitioning to sweeter citrus fruits. Nose became more reserved throughout the night.
The taste I think pretty much reflected the nose but also has some nice minerality and still has great acid. Finish was long.

Was tasted in a flight with the 07 Grosset Springvale and the PH looked, smelt and tasted more complex and younger.

This is a very good wine that has gained some complexity with age but is still a baby and will easily hold another 5 years especially thanks to the screwcap. 93pts

2001 Wendouree Shiraz Malbec
Decanted for air and to remove quite a bit of sediment for about 3 hours.
Colour was intense dark purple with the faintest of crimson on the edges.
Upon opening, the nose filled the room of eucalyptus and black fruits with a noticeable but not offensive lift of VA typical of an old school Wendouree. These scents continued in the glass.
Medium intensity palate, medium acid, oak was there but well integrated. More eucalyptus, blackberries, some tar and and bitumen. Quite complex and felt this captured what Wendouree typically tastes like. Finish was medium plus but kind of started to fade a little by the end of the night. 91pts

[Hacker]

Hacker - based on your experience is the '14 CMS a drink now proposition or worth holding onto?

Difficult question, the shiraz component made the finished product atypical compared to all the other years. It left me disappointed actually. It can be broached now but if you are looking for a typical Wendouree experience, look elsewhere. It may improve in time, but it may not be worth the effort.

[TiggerK]

Thanks for organising David, it was a fun night, everyone was in good form and the conversations were flowing nicely.

The Paul Bara Champagne had some nice weight and acid but I found the fruit a little too 'bruised apple' to really love it. But that Grosset Polish Hill 2002 was excellent, my WOTN. Aged PH has so often disappointed me (likely mainly due to cork or storage or both), but this and the 01 mse brought to the spicy offline a while back have both really impressed. The Springvale 07 felt a little bit simple (or was it just in comparison to the 02?), fairly dilute but still fresh and pure. Then a solid pair of Germans as deejay said, the 14 was textbook young Mosel and the 08 had some good development and interest.

The three chardonnays were all very different, I'm torn about the LEAS 01... it was moreish and silky but I was distracted by too much vanilla and coconut on the nose and palate which while being nice flavours that I enjoy, aren't flavours I like much in my wines any more. The M3 2008 was in a good spot, not sure I'd hold it much longer though, and the Pooley Cooinda 2015 was youthful and refined, yet felt like it needed a bit more character to shine against the more showy older couple.

Onto the Wendourees, another very mixed bag... I did feel the 98 Cab Malbec had some low level TCA ruining what could have been a very nice wine, and the 98 Shiraz Mataro was likely heat affected as it was very porty. The 01 Shiraz Malbec was my pick of the Wendourees. Did have a VA lift but was overall the best example for me of what I look for in a Wendouree, dark fruit, some tannic grip (more would have been ideal) and good complexity and length. The 2010 Cabernet did feel quite balanced overall, yet was lacking a distinct personality perhaps? I think the 13 Shiraz Mataro showed good promise for the future, was quite closed but I liked the brooding deep black fruited nature of it. The 15 Shiraz was my runner up Wendouree and I think will age very well, not sure I'd be wanting to open any for a few years though. As Hacker and deejay said, the 14 was a weird beast (and how do they get away with not labelling the Shiraz component?), just felt awkward and unfocused. Dave vino generously offered to open a 08 Shiraz, and I will never forgive any of you for not letting him. Seriously though we had plenty of wine and dave had already provided 3 bottles, including the delicious Riddoch 96 which surprised me for how much the tannins have softened since I last had it (or maybe just bottle variation?).

The blind options red was a 1996 Galah Shiraz. David said this was a side project wine made by the Wendouree assistant winemaker at the time using unwanted Wendouree fruit. Really enjoyed it thanks David, and what a great blind options to slip into the lineup with that Wendouree connection!

The 03 Sauternes could have used a touch more freshness, but wasn't overblown or hot at all. All in all a very good way to finish yet another fascinating exploration of Wendouree and friends.

As usual, I don't think anyone came away with a newfound love of Wendouree, more a cementing of the fact that they are variable yet ageworthy wines with a fairly distinctive style. Vintage really matters too. Certainly the younger wines aren't tannic closed monsters, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them easily approachable either.

Cheers everyone, have a good weekend.
Tim

[mjs]

Sounds like a good night guys, great notes. Pretty similar to some other Wendouree nights of late. A little variability, some quality issues, but good overall, age-worthy, enjoyable.

[dave vino]

Was a heap of fun.

M3 was a 2009.

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/Misc/Lamint1.jpg[/img]

[JamieBahrain]

98 Shiraz Mataro was likely heat affected as it was very porty

Yes, I've had the wine a few times of late and its built up with lovely primary fruit and some tertiary notes.

[JamieBahrain]

Some of those dishes look spicey? Did the food pairings work out OK?

I think the last Wendouree vertical I went to ( shiraz mataro 1994-2006 ) was an outback meat theme.

[Con J]

Deleted Wrong topic.

[rooman]

Some of those dishes look spicey? Did the food pairings work out OK?

I think the last Wendouree vertical I went to ( shiraz mataro 1994-2006 ) was an outback meat theme.

It was Vietnamese so not that too hot with the exception of one dish where Tim and I both bite down on a chilli at the same time.

As for the wines, as always people were too generous with far more wines than we could drink. So far as the Wendouree are concerned, they were definitely less tannic than some I’ve tried in the past and I believe the Cab Malbec were the most interesting. I just don’t see myself going to all that effort of getting on the list.

As for WOTN, once again the Leeuwin Art Series Chardonnay was the wine I came away thinking I most buy more. I’m looking to see how it shapes up at the next offline but for now it’s still my favourite Aussie chardonnay.

[felixp21]

At the risk of causing offence, was at a mate's place on Friday night for dinner, he was very nervous as his son plays for the Crows (haven't spoken to him since the game, but I have decided to stay well clear for a week or two haha)
The two reds were the Wynns 2010 Black Label and the 2010 Wendouree Cab Sav. The Wynns was the far better wine. I would have rated the Wynns 91 and the Wendouree 87-88.
I have drunk Wendouree reds for more than 30 years now, guess I just don't "get" them, but not a single bottle has been even close to stellar.

[Mike Hawkins]

Shame about the 02 Bara SC. I've had a few bottles This year that were fantastic.. great fruit, acid and length (and that's coming from someone who doesn't like too much Pinot in his champers). And I agree about the 02 PH. Absolutely superb wine..

[JamieBahrain]

At the risk of causing offence, was at a mate's place on Friday night for dinner, he was very nervous as his son plays for the Crows (haven't spoken to him since the game, but I have decided to stay well clear for a week or two haha)
The two reds were the Wynns 2010 Black Label and the 2010 Wendouree Cab Sav. The Wynns was the far better wine. I would have rated the Wynns 91 and the Wendouree 87-88.
I have drunk Wendouree reds for more than 30 years now, guess I just don't "get" them, but not a single bottle has been even close to stellar.

G'day Felix

As I've banged on about for years, I wouldn't expect your observed palate and those with similar to take kindly to an extracted Wendouree style. I've never observed your appreciation of any but the most refined styles of Northern Italians. Often, this goes hand in hand, even with international palates.

Now as for a dreary old Wynn's versus a Wendouree. I would have so much fun with that 2010 over a few days.

[Hacker]

Felix I get where you are coming from. We were commenting on the night that we needed some reference points to accurately access how good (or otherwise) the Wendourees are. For example a decent Margaret River Cabernet up against the 2010 Wendouree Cab Sav. A few years ago we did a Mt Edelstone vs. Rockford BP vs. Wendouree, and the latter was a fairly distant third. Yet we still get beguiled by the Wendouree story.

[JamieBahrain]

I find the Wendouree offlines too eclectic and would be better served with structure and theme. My last one was a success due a straight line-up of shiraz mataro. It was great- throw in a CNP, a Burgundy and some Rioja here and there. Would have been crap I'm guessing.

[TiggerK]

I find the Wendouree offlines too eclectic and would be better served with structure and theme. My last one was a success due a straight line-up of shiraz mataro. It was great- throw in a CNP, a Burgundy and some Rioja here and there. Would have been crap I'm guessing.

Not sure what you mean 'would have been crap' here Jamie? The ring-ins? If so, OK fair enough, context is important.

I agree that a Wendouree vertical might show better, but I also think a bunch of their wines spread across 17 years and various varieties should be capable of standing on their own as good wines, and it's seemingly impossible to find any consistency in them. And before you say it, I also feel that poor storage is a factor in some older wines not showing so well (and crap corks of course), but nonetheless I remain unconvinced that the winery as a whole deserves the cult status it has. If it weren't for 1991, what would hold the flag for them I wonder?

[Polymer]

I'm a Wendouree fan..but I do agree...the experience varies tremendously....

The newer vintages, which I guess goes back quite a ways...are quite open....Not entirely sold on these to be honest..

The older ones which are like pre 2006 or something like that...are far more interesting..the problem is, they're all very hard going until they hit the right phase...Lots of very fine tannins..which I really enjoy but I can see most people hating..combine that with big acid and you get a combination people generally dislike...add some acetic acid and you get even more people that dislike it...

You then have these wines that hit the right age with the right storage and you get some really interesting wines that are quite unique and give you that really fantastic experience. The problem is, most people have never seen Wendourees like this...

For me, every great Wendouree wine moment has been 23+ years from vintage. Of which the Shiraz Malbec or straight Malbec has never delivered even once. Most things 95 and older have been good but not everything.. 96 is an odd year and for some reason is very atypical (it reminds me of the newer style). 98 has huge potential but that's probably 10 years from showing correctly. Everything younger than 95 has been not quite ready or not quite right. You see a lot of them have the right structure and Wendouree feel but they're still really far from being ready. Speaking of which, there are some Wendouree that just never get ready..they never age properly....and why I think if you don't like the old style young, don't bother...

Which is why I'm always so shocked so many people want to buy...it is very much a crap shoot...a lot aren't going to age right..and nowadays I have no idea if they'll age correctly ever..or at least not in the way I want...And what shocks me even more is most of these people have never truly had a great Wendouree and they're still playing the game...

There have been two great Wendourees in all of the offlines I've seen here in the last 6 years or so....and maybe 2 or 3 others that were pretty good...and a good number that have potential but still need a lot of time..

Great
90 Cab Malbec
91 Shiraz

Good
93 Cab Malbec x 2
95 Shiraz Mataro

[Scotty vino]

The 96 cab malbec at an Ade offline last year was excellent. I remember bracing myself to be disappointed. I'm thinking here comes nail polish remover and harsh tannins. Not at all. I remember the remark was made that we 'could've made roads with it'!. Had that fantastic railway sleeper, gravel like bitumen note which I enjoyed. It was much more lucious and fruity than i expected (blackberries and black olives) and had amazing length.
The 94 cab at the recent wendouree offline was also another winner. So elegant and fresh as a daisy. Having said that I've definitely had the high acid, face ripping tannin experience with some wendouree. Quite harsh in fact. Mostly shiraz. I steered more towards cabs and cab blends in my most recent order.

[Mike Hawkins]

In rereading this post, I can't say it comes as a surprise that most of the better wines on the night weren't the Wendourees. I'm with Felix - I've never had a wow moment with Wendourees, and that includes the heralded Shiraz vintages such as 90, 91, 98 etc. But better palates than mine rate them highly, so what do I know!

[Matt@5453]

In rereading this post, I can't say it comes as a surprise that most of the better wines on the night weren't the Wendourees. I'm with Felix - I've never had a wow moment with Wendourees, and that includes the heralded Shiraz vintages such as 90, 91, 98 etc. But better palates than mine rate them highly, so what do I know!

Interesting responses alround. Just wondering whether any other producer in Australia produces ~6 red wines that come up against so much scrutiny? Particularly off one site, given the primitive winemaking facilities?
Probably not.