Crushing! Your fav NZ/AU Chardonnays and Pinots?

[Sean]

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[Craig(NZ)]

Its interesting to see a few of the old names turn up on your list such as, KR Mates, Church Road and Clearview both of which I used to drink regularly when I lived in Auckland back in the 90s but wouldn't do so now due to a change of stylistic perferences. The question is have they they also changed over time? When I first started tried the likes of KR Mates, which I really struggled with, and the old Vidal chardonnays they were built in the old fashioned big buttery, full malo style. Your inclusion of the wines makes me wonder if their styles have also matured and changed over time so they are less buttery and more delicate? Do you perceive a change over time in style, if so I need to retry a few on your list.

The answer is yes. They have changed and changed for the better.

I too despise over oaked flabby chardonnays

I actually dislike the Church Rd Reserve Chardonnay, but the Tom especially the 2013 is really good stuff. Vidal too. The Legacy is a very impressive wine. Yes it has a bit of oak but piles of precise rapier grapefruit fruit. The 2013-2015 are very very convincing.

Kumeu River since 2010 especially I think has gone another notch up in quality and Hunting Hill is a Revelation

Neudorf has always been exceptional and is coverted above all I think for me in terms of NZ chardonnay. It has been right at the top of the tree for a quarter of a century. Recently 2012, 2014 are right up there among the best ever made in NZ

Te Mata Elston may have lost it's crown as HB's top Chardonnay but it is so surprising how well it does in blind tastings and it is damn cheap!! The 2015 did really well at my last Chardonnay blind tasting

Sacred Hill Riflemans now probably is knocking on the door of Hawkes Bays best chardonnay. It has come out near the top in about the last 3 blind chardonnay tasting I have done

Clearview too has become more refined while still maintaining a slither of its voluptuous seduction. It might not be as structured or serious as some other wines but it certainly lays the seduction card with consumate ease

[Phil H]

Interesting suggestions: some I have tried and some that I have bought on reputation and sitting in the cellar waiting for a few years (Yattarna & Giaconda) to see if they measure up to their reputation. One wine that has not been mentioned being Pierro On tasting at an exhibition my better half and myself were impressed. I have only had a couple of bottles, hence no expert, but I have loved each one, which reminds me must stock up. Priced at under $80, much cheaper than Burgundy which I am still interested in, but as yet still find it hard to justify the price.

[maybs]

Some very interesting points there Sean.

I would have put Savaterre a year or so ago but I'm the last 12 months I have had two bottles and both have been pretty average. I'm hoping it's just coincidence or a few bad bottles because when I first tried their wine I was very very impressed.

[Rossco]

Chardonnay can be a lot like that, with the charge by nearly everyone into earlier picked, no malo, "minerally" wines now fashionable. Is the pendulum swinging back from that? Are we are seeing balanced, better made premium chardonnay? I get that you can go to France and there's a gamut of wines (depending on where you go) from unwooded Petit Chablis to wooded Chablis to bigger, richer Mersault. But you don't make a Chablis style just anywhere.

Chardonnay has got leaner and pinot has got bigger.

I have seen lots of big, chunky pinots. Lots of dark fruited ones. Lots of very oaky ones. Some of these are like a shiraz, not a pinot. All of them are getting bagfuls of T/A thrown in. In the early 2000's when a few wineries like Hillcrest (in Yarra Valley) were saying they wanted natural acidity in their wines, a lot of people just didn't believe them. They didn't believe it could be done. Really it was like the canary in a mine moment.

Great post Sean.

I am starting to see a swing back to the middle in Chardonnay (for the better IMO), but lately I am seeing a trend
in Aust Pinot to green, thin and stalky styles.... especially in Tas for some reason.
I dont like the big chunky shiraz styles either, and yes they are definitely being made, but im seeing more of the other
end.

Recently had a tasting with multiple people and the absolute standout was William Downie 2016 Mornington. Last one
Bill will ever make (as he is 100% Gippsland now for all his wines) and this killed his Gippsland ones..... which was a really
big curiosity for me as why would you do that. 'Control of the Vineyards' was the answer..........
Was astonishing and will blow most people away. I dont even like Pinot that much, and for me it was a revelation.... and
I kind of get the bug now... but you have to sift through hundreds of pinot's just to find that one jem. No thanks.
So I loaded up on this, even though I vowed only to ever buy 3-ish bottles of the one wine from now on..... I just had
too. Will be the first 103 JH point wine.

[dingozegan]

Some interesting points, Sean.

It's nice that winemakers in Australia are talking more about fruit sourcing for Chardonnay these days - whether that actually translates as a distinctive expression of site or not!

But Chardonnay has always been a "winemaker's wine" in Australia, highly subject to winemaking artifice and stylistic trends.

I do think the pendulum has swung back (from the much leaner style) a little. I remember stuff like Shaw and Smith's leaner, fresher mid-2000's M3 leaving me cold (mind you, so did Coldstream Hills back then, and Voyager's early 2000's). I think the average now has moved more towards a somewhat weightier and riper fruited style than that, with more malo influence having come back too.

The current standard is still a long way away from the 80's/90's Chardonnays that had a whole fruit salad bowl of sub-tropical fruit drenched in butter and thrown in a freshly sawn and partially torched cupboard that weighs a tonne (those palate's were big and HEAAAVVVY). That's probably a good thing! (Even Brown Brothers Patricia doesn't seem to get anywhere near like that these days.) It wasn't so much the fruit and richness of that style that people moved away from, I think, as how much the style was weighty and pumped up on toasty oak, crass butter (diacetyl and not much else), and sub-tropical fruit.

I think there are more Aussie Chardonnays that strike a nice balance these days. There is some fruit ripeness, often some malo influence/butter, there's weight without heaviness, and there's refreshing acidity. I think this style suits much Aussie Chardonnay fruit. Bannockburn has struck this balance quite well IMO, even over - and perhaps despite - the last 15 years. Of course, that could just be my bias taste in Chardonnay talking

As to Richard McIntyre's comment on sulfides, whether they're a quality thing or not perhaps depends on your perspective. It can be difficult to get the balance right with them (especially when different people have widely different thresholds for them). Besides, they're a classic part of the style of Chardonnay in some places in the world

On thing that hasn't changed in Aussie Chardonnay is that the vast majority of it is heavily oaked. Most Aussies don't seem to think that's the case any more - and it's certainly not like the old heavy toast days - but by international standards, I'd say they're typically pretty oaky.

[Polymer]

I am starting to see a swing back to the middle in Chardonnay (for the better IMO), but lately I am seeing a trend
in Aust Pinot to green, thin and stalky styles.... especially in Tas for some reason.
I dont like the big chunky shiraz styles either, and yes they are definitely being made, but im seeing more of the other
end.

I think you're definitely seeing Chardonnay in AU swing back more towards the middle which is good...The overreacting to the super big buttery Chardonnay was just too extreme.

I'm not seeing that with Pinot though...Green, Thin and Stalky? IN AU? WHERE? Maybe relative to where they were they're lighter..but they're still massive..I can only wish places would try to make a green Pinot Noir...because they'd for sure not make a green one, just one that is probably not so Shiraz like..

Back to the OP:

Chardonnay:
Lethbridge
Penfolds Bin A
Giaconda
Kumeu River
Sacred Hill
Bannockburn
Tolpuddle

But plenty of other really good Chards in both NZ and AU...

Pinot Noir:
Escarpment
Valli
Bannockburn
By Farr
Lethbridge


Lots of variation here...lots of other Pinots that in a given year I really like..but others not so much..even above, within their own ranges, plenty of great Pinots and some not so good...

Plenty of names I'm leaving off the list as well...

I do think the style of wine in AU(and NZ) is getting better...fewer extremes..I also think the younger generation is more willing to experiment and they're also not trying to go super ripe either...I almost feel like the older generation has ruined their palate in that they can no longer taste what is ripe...so anything that isn't overly ripe tastes green to them...

[TiggerK]

I get the stalky trend in AU & NZ Pinot these days, but not the green or thin. Not sure I want too much green in my Pinot, but Geez I wish more were thin, pale, savoury, floral and less stalky!!

And I definitely agree with your last paragraph Polymer, well said.

[Polymer]

I don't mind stalky...DRC is stalky .

But that said, I think everyone has their own tolerance level for stalk..mine just happens to be quite high...for others it is an automatic turn off. I like some of that smoked vegetation smell/flavor...

I do think AU has the potential for better Pinot...I think Tassie has huge potential...they just have to get over the fact that it isn't Shiraz..that maybe they don't have the right site to try to make a Grand Cru type Pinot Noir...Concentrate more on making a wine Pinot like rather than concentrate on making a wine as ripe as they think they can get away with...

[Diddy]

Most of my go-to producers have been captured here. I was surprised to see no love for Chatto - have been pumping out some consistently great pinots for a few years now.

[felixp21]

yea, 100% correct Polymer. Aus pinots have improved markedly over the past decade. Probably the same in NZ, although I see less of them in the tastings I attend.