What is the most egregious wine pricing you have seen?

[phillisc]

[quote="JamieBahrain"][quote] Well I'd suggest it's a pretty moot point without putting up some examples or without having experience with the wine. We are all looking for the next HofG and you see the hollow claim often though I wish philllisc luck in his new found discovery.

Yep, let's turn it into a verbose babbling on blind tasting, but I can't get past a tall poppy undertone or envy.

Jamie, I thought you were better than that, but get off your high horse and lose the arrogance...its you that is turning the art form of babbling into a master class...or that you're on the payroll as Henschke's PR manager.
Your statement of purchasing numerous vintages of the wine and two, "drunk more bottles than you can remember" puts you firmly in the camp of a tall poppy, but you have put yourself there...no one else.
As for the claim of envy, certainly not me.
Rather it be best that you frame it as opportunity, a well paid job, 17% tax, an international finance hub, billions of bottles being flogged off at prices most Australians can only dream about. I am fortunate to have the first one but not the next 3.

Thanks for the commendation of my new found discovery.
I have 20 years ago purchased and consumed a number of vintages of Hill of Grace...4 bottles of the 86 drunk in one day at the 90 Barossa gourmet weekend at $20 a pop (oh wait you will tell me that's day light robbery).
I am certainty not looking for the next Hill of Grace, I have never inferred any suspicion of its quality or indeed that it is a great wine. I couldn't give a flying fuck about a top tier wine being masked in an equally prestigious line up, or against some also rans and its embarrassed.
I am looking for wines that have quality and pedigree without the gouge and that's where Hill of Grace sits. I find it ironic that you are down to 8 bottles and you consider the wine too expensive to consume on a whim, or to put up as a comparison to others.
My comment was intended as there is actually great Barossa Shiraz out there that (for me anyway) is still expensive, but no where near $800+ and it gives me half a chance to buy.

Just a tip...no need to include me in your 'debate' with Mahmoud. The two of you can sort it out!

Cheers
Craig

[JamieBahrain]

Craig you were wished well in your discovery quoted below, nothing more, nothing less. But it's good to get things off your chest !

I have just purchased for the first time a 6 pack of three wines from a small maker at 1/8 the price of HOG...and palates far more sophisticated and experienced than mine rate it as pound for pound the the best Barossa Shiraz money can buy. I can't comment at the moment, but will open one first to have a look.

And that said, why the secrecy? I'm not sure what the antonym of gauged wine buyers is but do you see a link?

[Mahmoud Ali]

As for being a “goose” on the Palmer thread I think the shoe is on the other foot. The point I was making was that wines mature along different timelines and I never backtracked on that. You on the other hand kept insisting that the Palmer was a representative example, missing the point that any wine in a dumb phase should consistently present itself that way. An immature Palmer will consistently be immature no matter how many bottles are opened.

Vague is most apt since I never back-pedaled. Also the presence of Bordeaux experts was not a point of contention as I never questioned anybody’s opinion of the wine. I’m sorry to say but it seems you still don’t understand what those posts were about.

No Mahmoud I don't understand what you were on about. It's almost like you are trolling or suffer verboseness when inexperienced with the subject matter. The Palmer wasn't in a dumb phase, it was totally representative according to the somm' who'd prepared the vintage half a dozen times this year. I was fine with the wine as were a number of others.

You're right, I do tend to be verbose and for that I truly am sorry. I must be quite insufferable. You are correct to suggest that the purpose of this wine forum is to offer opinions that are brief and succinct. I must also learn to refrain from commenting on things for which I have little or no experience. I understand now that when you and sommeliers comment on wines it is the definitive opinion. This should serve as a lesson to new members of this forum. They should have knowledge and experience before posting here, unless of course they restrict themselves to asking questions and learn from the more knowledgeable members.

2012 Hill of Grace is offered at $825 a bottle and at $580 a bottle it is a good deal. However twenty years later an equivalent wine costing $50 bests the Hill of Grace in a blind tasting. Who would have guessed?

Nor do I get the tone of your wet blanket HofG comments, without experience or empirical evidence, when a forum member above buys the 2012 HofG. Yep, let's turn it into a verbose babbling on blind tasting, but I can't get past a tall poppy undertone or envy.

I apologize profusely if I in any way slighted the reputation or pricing of the Hill of Grace. I should have understood that only experienced collectors and tasters of this wine are rightly qualified to comment on it and should have immediately deferred to your views and opinion. Indeed it was my envy and jealousy that was responsible for my misguided comments.

Please accept my humblest of apologies for in no way did I intend to offend collectors and drinkers of the HofG. I also hope that I was not too verbose in my apologies and that you are able to understand its tenor and tone.

Cheers ........................ Mahmoud.

[sjw_11]

Neither a snob, nor a snobee be
There is a bit too much of recent posts which smacks of the idea that if you haven't tried 100s of bottles of, say, Hill of Grace, you are simply not allowed to make any comment on it. If it is not recognised in a blind, it is only because the tasters lack expertise.

That, to me, is the kind of wine snobbery that intimidates and puts off newcomers from the whole "fine wine scene" (and which, by the way, was the antithesis of the idea of this thread).

The law of diminishing returns...
I maintain the view I have put forward many times that while such legendary wine may be, on average, on its day, objectively some indefinable amount better than a lesser $50-100 wine, it is likely that

1) any given bottle of said wine may be less than the quote "weaker" wine due to all kinds of issues (case in point, the discussed brettanomyces in 1998 HoG.... Would you really prefer that to a clean, but lesser wine?). This is true with all wines, but the opportunity cost is disproportionately high with a marquee brand;

And 2) more fundamentally the extent of the objective, quantitative difference is not balanced by the price difference above a certain (debatable) threshold. A $50 Shiraz may be 6x better than a Cask of Goon, but the $300 big brother will not replicate these incremental gains.

Above that price point, the incremental cost is paying not for wine quality but for cachet, label, and one-upmanship. "Lets both thump ours down on the table and see if mine isn't more expensive than yours, sonny boy".

Sorry, you have insufficient funds to complete this transaction...
At the end of the day, I consider it rendered moot. The vast majority of wine lovers are not also Russian oligarchs, Chinese "entrepreneurs", mining tenement arrivistes, or even well-paid, low-taxed enthusiasts. An $850 bottle of vino is an unimaginable or at the least reckless luxury for most.

I am more than happy to thus leave HoG, Grange, and all their European equivalents to the pissing contest of such refined air, and I for one will feel no shame about debating the merits of what I believe to be the significant quantities of genuinely first rate plonk available for $30-$100 (to select an arbitrary "big round number" as a limit)... And for that matter, knocking back plenty of the same while taking the piss out of the stratospherically priced alternatives. Is it tall poppy syndrome? If you feel that way, so be it. But if those with the dosh can't handle a bit of a piss-take, there are plenty of worthy causes happy to take that problem away...

[Ian S]

Hi Sam
In general agreement - invariably I'd prefer a case of decent $40 wine to a single bottle of $800 wine, even accepting it's less in pure $ terms.

If someone's disposable income is such that they can afford a case of the $800 wine, and that they can afford to drink that wine on a regular basis, then they have a different value judgement. For them even 3 cases of the $40 wine wouldn't appeal, as they have no driver to hit value for money as you or I may see it. They want a certain number of bottles and they're happy to pay for they believe is the best they can get.

I don't much care for the 'x is better than y' arguments, more generally seen on US forums in the past, nor indeed the modern obsession with awarding points to wines. I very much doubt I or the wine would be consistent over a 0-5 star rating, let alone the modern 80-100 point scale. Give me a tasty, interesting wine and I'm happy to enjoy it. I'll admit I'm guilty enough of 'buying the label' to try wines from someone with a high reputation in a region, but I think I find greater enjoyment in finding a little-known producer whose wines I like.

regards
Ian

[JamieBahrain]

From someone who drinks right across the board, there's more reverse snobbery than snobbery emerging here.

A forum member buys a case of HofG and there's no good for you, there's the very debatable suggestion that the wine will probably be bettered blind by a $50 wine from today's market in 20 years time. If you dismiss a perverse envy to the out of left field comment, I'm really interested in what wines are going to deliver having a lot of experience presenting Aussie wines blind to a genuinely dismissive Old World crowd. Stating a generic, any old vine shiraz doesn't cut it, then we had Felix's interesting comments about earlier Amon Ra which I'll investigate and Craig's hidden label mystery, best ever Barossa shiraz.

Conversely, this morning, I bought a case of Barolo from Giacomo Conterno . Now if someone says in 20 years time it will be bettered blind by a less expensive Barolo I'd say you could well be right because I don't have the experience with the wine and the innovation and change in the region dramatic. I can't see the same in today's SA shiraz scene, though could be wrong, and the generic reference to any old vine shiraz is very shallow.

[Mahmoud Ali]

From someone who drinks right across the board, there's more reverse snobbery than snobbery emerging here.

A forum member buys a case of HofG and there's no good for you, there's the very debatable suggestion that the wine will probably be bettered blind by a $50 wine from today's market in 20 years time. If you dismiss a perverse envy to the out of left field comment, I'm really interested in what wines are going to deliver having a lot of experience presenting Aussie wines blind to a genuinely dismissive Old World crowd. Stating a generic, any old vine shiraz doesn't cut it, then we had Felix's interesting comments about earlier Amon Ra which I'll investigate and Craig's hidden label mystery, best ever Barossa shiraz.

Conversely, this morning, I bought a case of Barolo from Giacomo Conterno . Now if someone says in 20 years time it will be bettered blind by a less expensive Barolo I'd say you could well be right because I don't have the experience with the wine and the innovation and change in the region dramatic. I can't see the same in today's SA shiraz scene, though could be wrong, and the generic reference to any old vine shiraz is very shallow.

There is no reverse snobbery here, merely fair comment on an expensive, cult wine priced out of reach of most wine enthusiasts. Far more opprobrium has been leveled against Penfold’s.

Mr Bahrain, the title of the thread is “What is the most egregious wine pricing you have seen?” Let me help you along. The Oxford dictionary describes the meaning of egregious as: Outstandingly bad; shocking.

It was in this thread that someone posted that the “2012 Hill of Grace just offered at $825” thereby introducing this wine as an example of egregious pricing. Even the poster who was lucky enough to get mate’s rates said “Still extreme tho ..” suggesting that even with a hefty discount it is still egregious.

So now we get to the “very debatable suggestion that the wine will probably be bettered blind by a $50 wine from today’s market in 20 years time.” You must be referring to me. But let’s be clear, I said an equivalent wine costing about $50, which I later clarified as being a ball park figure, whether at retail or discount. Furthermore, I never said “generic old vine shiraz”, I initially said equivalent wines and later talked about wines from old vine shiraz and gave a few examples.

So you’re really interested in what wines will deliver against the Hill of Grace in a 20 year time frame to a genuinely skeptical old world crowd? It seems like your years of presenting the Australian treasures is not working well for you because I have been successful among my friends. Maybe the company you keep are stubborn. However, to get back to the wines, let me use Jeremy Oliver’s 2016 wine guide and a few wines I have in my cellar.

2004 Hill of Grace: 94 points - Drinking 2016 to 2024+

Basically a 20 year window and longer as I read it. What I bought for about $50 and less:

2004 Langmeil ‘Freedom’: 96 points - Drinking 2012 to 2016+
2004 d’Arenberg ‘Dead Arm: 96 points - Drinking 2016 to 2024+
2004 Penfold’s ‘St Henri’: 96 points - 2024 to 2036.

I’m not suggesting that each of the examples above, with higher points than the Hill of Grace, will be better. Far from it. Mr Oliver’s opinion is one among many and on any given day, some years down the road, any one of these wines, served blind, may top the others, including the lower scoring Hill of Grace.

The price of iconic, cult wines have little to do with the cost of producing it. A forum member here has already referred to a Peter Gago’s comment about the real cost of making a Grange right here on this thread. Even Jancis Robinson has weighed in on the subject of the true cost of expensive wines. In the case of old vine vineyards owned for generations the costs are even lower. So it is fair to say that the HofG and other high priced iconic wines are priced not on cost but other factors like demand, production levels, reputation, and winemaking. Cost aside, the only difference between wines made from different old vine vineyards is the terroir and the winemaking.

No single vineyard has the best terroir in Australia, and given healthy grapes and fine weather, I suspect that winemaking is the next important part of making a fine cellaring wine. For the HofG to consistently be the best wine among all the old vine shiraz wines of Australia one would have to assume that nobody can make wines as well as the Henschke winemakers. I don’t think that is a sustainable position.

Mahmoud.

[Ian S]

I've no doubt Jamie will be able to find alternative critics or CT averages to argue the reverse. That's the thing about scoring wines, it's very much biased to the individual's palate and will still be inconsistent for that single taster. The whole argument is flawed. There is no such thing as a scale of *quality.

Is there anything wrong with enjoying what you like, and buying wines you like? This argument wouldn't have gained any traction is Jamie had said "I really enjoy HoG, more than any Aussie wine I could name. For me the premium is worth it".

I've yet to taste an Aussie shiraz that's worth more to me than ~$150 (and that would include Grange). Maybe HoG might stretch that limit, maybe it wouldn't. Maybe another wine might. It's a long way to go to generates $850 worth of excitement though. Jamie has a different value perspective.

regards
Ian


* Unless you're a critic trying to flog your opinion, at which point you'll paint that picture to sell more books / subscriptions.

[JamieBahrain]

2012 Hill of Grace is offered at $825 a bottle and at $580 a bottle it is a good deal. However twenty years later an equivalent wine costing $50 bests the Hill of Grace in a blind tasting.

Who would have guessed?

So you've wound the clock back 8 vintages? The subject matter was the 2012 Hill of Grace and my original query was what wine can be bought for $50 now that will outperform this wine in 20?

If you don't have reasonable suggestions give it a rest.

[JamieBahrain]

Ian, you're barking up the wrong tree. I just wanted to know what Aussie wines are that good at $50 now they are going to pip 2012 HofG at 20 years. It was a big call. Hollow as it transpires.

[Ian S]

Ian, you're barking up the wrong tree. I just wanted to know what Aussie wines are that good at $50 now they are going to pip 2012 HofG at 20 years. It was a big call. Hollow as it transpires.

We will have to disagree.

[sjw_11]

Honestly it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether a wine is going to "beat" the HoG in 20Y time. I can think of a bunch of wines I think
will be very very good drinking up to 20+ yrs at a fraction the cost. Could they beat the HoG? For a given bottle, on a given day, maybe they could. Maybe they could come within 10-15% of the HoG. I don't know. But either way, I would rather have 10-16 bottles of these than 1 bottle of HoG! I think the cumulative drinking pleasure will eclipse a once off taste of the "best".

Just from what I have personally acquired from that vintage:

Just SA Shiraz...
Marius Symphony - 5% the price
Rockford BP - 6.5% the price
Head Wines Contrarian - 5% the price
Turkey Flat Shiraz - 5% the price
Kay Brothers Block 6 - 6% the price
Bin 389 - 7% the price
Wendouree Shiraz - 6% the price

Other Aussie Reds
Grosset Gaia - 8% the price
Cape Mentelle Cabernet - 10% the price
Majella Cabernet - 5% the price
Petaluma Coonawarra - 6% the price
Assorted other Wendouree's - 6% the price
Wynns John Riddoch - 10% the price
Yarra Yering No1 Dry Red IN MAGNUM FORMAT - still only 20% of the price

Wines I am also hopeful of...
Dalwhinnie Cabernet and Shiraz - 7% the price
Giaconda Cabernet - 10% the price

Hope that is a more comprehensive list to appease Jamie.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Honestly it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether a wine is going to "beat" the HoG in 20Y time. I can think of a bunch of wines I think will be very very good drinking up to 20+ yrs at a fraction the cost. Could they beat the HoG? For a given bottle, on a given day, maybe they could. Maybe they could come within 10-15% of the HoG. I don't know. But either way, I would rather have 10-16 bottles of these than 1 bottle of HoG! I think the cumulative drinking pleasure will eclipse a once off taste of the "best".

Sam, well said, my sentiiments exacly.

Mahmoud.

[Mahmoud Ali]

2012 Hill of Grace is offered at $825 a bottle and at $580 a bottle it is a good deal. However twenty years later an equivalent wine costing $50 bests the Hill of Grace in a blind tasting.

Who would have guessed?

So you've wound the clock back 8 vintages? The subject matter was the 2012 Hill of Grace and my original query was what wine can be bought for $50 now that will outperform this wine in 20?

If you don't have reasonable suggestions give it a rest.

I hadn’t realized that the high price of the Hill of Grace and how it might fare against other wines was solely restricted to the 2012 vintage. Are the other vintages less egregiously priced and are they not going to be presented in blind tastings?

I chose the 2004 vintage for comparison because I happen to have a few bottles of good wines from that vintage for which I was happy to pay the amount I referred to in my original post. Jeremy Oliver’s 2016 guide hasn’t got a review of the 2012 Hill of Grace (he has the 2010) but here is his two lists of top ten shiraz with the 2012 vintage rating highlighted in bold:

The Top Ten Traditional Australian Shiraz

Penfolds Grange Shiraz 2010 98
Wynns Coonawarra Estate Michael Shiraz 2012 96
Coriole Lloyd Reserve Shiraz 2012 96
John Duval Eligo Shiraz 2012 96
Penfolds RWT Shiraz 2012 96
Penfolds Magill Estate Shiraz 2012 96
Kilikanoon Miracle Hill Shiraz 2012 96
Hardys Eileen Hardy Shiraz 2012 96
Wendouree Shiraz 2013 96
Peter Lehmann Stonewell Shiraz 2010 96

The Top Ten Savoury, Elegant ‘Syrah’-like Shiraz

Paradise IV Dardel Shiraz 2014 97
Tyrrell’s Vat 9 Shiraz 2014 97
Heathcote Estate Block C Shiraz 2012 96
Clarendon Hills Astralis Syrah 2012 96
Clarendon Hills Moritz Syrah 2012 96
Clarendon Hills Brookman Syrah 2012 96
Levantine Hill Melissa’s Paddock Syrah 2014 96
Seppelt St Peters Shiraz 2013 95
Wynns Coonawarra Estate V & A Lane Shiraz 2012 95
Torbreck Descendant Shiraz Viognier 2012 95

I’ve read that the 2012 Hill of Grace is supposed to be an excellent wine, one of the better ones. The singular characteristics of a Hill of Grace must surely be present in the wine and I’m sure anyone here would love to have some. However it has plenty of competition in the list above and I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to which of the wines above will be showing their best in 20, 25, or 30 years time.

Mahmoud.

PS: I'm well aware that many of these wines are not in the $50 bracket but I believe that the conversation has transcended my first post.

[Mahmoud Ali]

On the subject of the Hill of Grace let me say that there is no doubt that the Hill of Grace is a very fine wine, and I don’t think that anybody here is disputing that, I’m certainly not. The subject of the thread is egregious pricing. It seems to me that you are heavily invested in the Hill of Grace and particularly sensitive about the reputation and standing of this wine. Frankly it is great that you sing the praises of this wine, as do people who sing the praises the Grange. However even those who like and admire the Grange are able to criticize Penfold’s ambitious pricing.

The Hill of Grace is no doubt an iconic wine with a lovely location next to the Gnadenburg Church and an equally evocative name. When I last visited the Barossa I made a pilgrimage to the vineytard. Though it is considered a single vineyard wine it is, as alluded to by another poster here, made of different blocks of vines planted in different years. The current state of the vineyard and the quality of the vines is in large measure the result of the work of Pru Henschke, the wife of Stephen, and the gnarled vines on the block in front of the church must surely contribute some defining character to the Hill of Grace wine.

It is very possible that a Hill of Grace might reveal itself to someone familiar with the wine in a blind tasting. It is also true that with age all wines trend towards a singularity and the particular characteristics of a younger wine becomes less apparent. It is also fair to say that an individual might always prefer the taste profile of a Hill of Grace or its Barossa counterparts in a blind tasting. Others, like myself, might prefer the profile of a Hunter style to any South Australian shiraz. Therefore in a blind tasting of excellent but equivalent old Australian shirazes, any of them might rightly end up being the Wine of the Night, depending on the vintage, the age of the bottle, and the preferences of the tasters. That is the pleasure of wines and blind tasting. This postulation is not about demoting the Hill of Grace and you shouldn’t see it that way.

Once again, the subject of the thread is about egregious pricing, not the inherent quality of the Hill of Grace, Grange, The Laird, or any other iconic but expensive wines.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: Having mentioned the talent of Prue Henschke, I should also mention Stephen Henschke’s contribution. He took over wine making from his father in 1979 and word in the Barossa has it that the winemaking improved. I know that at cellar door, in a range of back vintages, I noticed a qualitative difference between the 1978 and 1979 vintage.

[JamieBahrain]

2012 Hill of Grace is offered at $825 a bottle and at $580 a bottle it is a good deal. However twenty years later an equivalent wine costing $50 bests the Hill of Grace in a blind tasting.

Who would have guessed?

So you've wound the clock back 8 vintages? The subject matter was the 2012 Hill of Grace and my original query was what wine can be bought for $50 now that will outperform this wine in 20?

If you don't have reasonable suggestions give it a rest.

I hadn’t realized that the high price of the Hill of Grace and how it might fare against other wines was solely restricted to the 2012 vintage. Are the other vintages less egregiously priced and are they not going to be presented in blind tastings?

I chose the 2004 vintage for comparison because I happen to have a few bottles of good wines from that vintage for which I was happy to pay the amount I referred to in my original post. Jeremy Oliver’s 2016 guide hasn’t got a review of the 2012 Hill of Grace (he has the 2010) but here is his two lists of top ten shiraz with the 2012 vintage rating highlighted in bold:

The Top Ten Traditional Australian Shiraz

Penfolds Grange Shiraz 2010 98
Wynns Coonawarra Estate Michael Shiraz 2012 96
Coriole Lloyd Reserve Shiraz 2012 96
John Duval Eligo Shiraz 2012 96
Penfolds RWT Shiraz 2012 96
Penfolds Magill Estate Shiraz 2012 96
Kilikanoon Miracle Hill Shiraz 2012 96
Hardys Eileen Hardy Shiraz 2012 96
Wendouree Shiraz 2013 96
Peter Lehmann Stonewell Shiraz 2010 96

The Top Ten Savoury, Elegant ‘Syrah’-like Shiraz

Paradise IV Dardel Shiraz 2014 97
Tyrrell’s Vat 9 Shiraz 2014 97
Heathcote Estate Block C Shiraz 2012 96
Clarendon Hills Astralis Syrah 2012 96
Clarendon Hills Moritz Syrah 2012 96
Clarendon Hills Brookman Syrah 2012 96
Levantine Hill Melissa’s Paddock Syrah 2014 96
Seppelt St Peters Shiraz 2013 95
Wynns Coonawarra Estate V & A Lane Shiraz 2012 95
Torbreck Descendant Shiraz Viognier 2012 95

I’ve read that the 2012 Hill of Grace is supposed to be an excellent wine, one of the better ones. The singular characteristics of a Hill of Grace must surely be present in the wine and I’m sure anyone here would love to have some. However it has plenty of competition in the list above and I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to which of the wines above will be showing their best in 20, 25, or 30 years time.

Mahmoud.

PS: I'm well aware that many of these wines are not in the $50 bracket but I believe that the conversation has transcended my first post.

Since we are using other people's work and not personal experiences, years ago, Huon Hooke's book "Words of Wine" had a short chapter of $20 Aussie wines that were Grange alternatives. Be an interesting re-read and there were a number of wines back 20+ years ago that stood the test of time and delivered fine wine experiences at a fraction the cost of Grange.

[felixp21]

For all you lovers of Hill of Grace, just a heads up. The good news for you is that there is a vertical tasting of HoG and HoR in the latest edition of the Suckling on-line mag, so check it out. The bad news is that it is written by Nick Stock, who has as big a lack of talent in wine journalism as his mighty boss, the big (or little actually) J.

[JamieBahrain]

Honestly it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether a wine is going to "beat" the HoG in 20Y time. I can think of a bunch of wines I think will be very very good drinking up to 20+ yrs at a fraction the cost. Could they beat the HoG? For a given bottle, on a given day, maybe they could. Maybe they could come within 10-15% of the HoG. I don't know. But either way, I would rather have 10-16 bottles of these than 1 bottle of HoG! I think the cumulative drinking pleasure will eclipse a once off taste of the "best".

Sam, well said, my sentiiments exacly.

Mahmoud.

Well that's great and perhaps it's even my sentiments too. But I've endured pages of waffle with little resolution or enlightenment on my original statement below. There's nothing in today's market I've seen come close at $50.

I've enjoyed all the waffle amounting to suck eggs posts, vinous socialism and the cut n' pastes from other people's work.

2012 Hill of Grace is offered at $825 a bottle and at $580 a bottle it is a good deal. However twenty years later an equivalent wine costing $50 bests the Hill of Grace in a blind tasting.

Who would have guessed?

Not me ! HofG is a definitive wine and there's nothing I've seen come close at $50.

[JamieBahrain]

1) any given bottle of said wine may be less than the quote "weaker" wine due to all kinds of issues (case in point, the discussed brettanomyces in 1998 HoG.... Would you really prefer that to a clean, but lesser wine?). This is true with all wines, but the opportunity cost is disproportionately high with a marquee brand;

Interesting case in point Sam. Have you tried the wine? Commentary is now polarizing.

I never dared present the wine in verticals nor buy it as the Mt Ed 1998 release and early comments from Oliver was a precursor to potential disaster for the 98 HofG. It was on this forum near 20 years that whispers turned to anecdotes and one rumor was warm storage for a high percentage of both wines resulting in "brett bloom".

Now, I'm seeing on social media from industry friends in the fine wine game the 98 HofG and Mt Ed presenting as stunning wines. I've told them, my 98's went back to the winery, I was chilling the MtEd to contain the brett .

Seems to indicate some of the 98's getting away with low levels of brett and the warm-stored ones being the disasters I doubt many would palate.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Since we are using other people's work and not personal experiences ...

I'm afraid I'm out of this race to the bottom of self justification and sophistry. I must admit to having no personal experience of how the 2012 Hill of Grace will taste in 20 years, let alone any of the other wines. Please, if anyone here has direct personal experience of how these wines taste in 2034 please let us know. And any notes will be very much appreciated. I should add that you should also contact the Time Travellers Association.

... years ago, Huon Hooke's book "Words of Wine" had a short chapter of $20 Aussie wines that were Grange alternatives. Be an interesting re-read and there were a number of wines back 20+ years ago that stood the test of time and delivered fine wine experiences at a fraction the cost of Grange.

Is is just me or has someone just sabotaged his own protestations?

Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

There's nothing I've seen that comes close to HofG at $50 and it appears the same for you. I'd suggest if you double that number you may be on a roll.

Wendouree shiraz is a special consideration but more accurately it hits that $100 mark and even then, it's a very polarizng wine. Dead Arm? I'm not having much luck .

[maybs]

I have read the entire post, in particular the last few pages, in entirety, more than once. Am I correct, or close to it, in thinking:

1. Some restaurants charge a lot for wine, especially at the lower RRP price point;

2. Jamie really likes Hill of Grace;

3. Everyone else probably would like Hill of Grace, because it is a pretty good wine, but either cannot afford it or cannot justify it on a cost/benefit/value type ratio (this is not a criticism but a statement of fact);

4. People sometimes take wine way too seriously;

5. In relation to point 1, it is good to know where these price gougers are and avoid them;

6. In relation to points 2-5, maybe everyone should just relax and have a drink. HoG if you have it, but any old SA shiraz will do.

[TiggerK]

[Scotty vino]

All i see is a boxing ring, a long table and 10 wines lined up under paper bags.
HOG under one, and the rest Barossa Shiraz contenders.

Same vintage, impeccable provenance, decanted/perfect temp, Pricing?.....whatever. Go at it boys.

Jamie if you can pick the HOG in these conditions (and it sounds like you can) I'd be impressed.
I say that with the least amount of sarcasm and cynicism possible too.

I'm working on my palate and although I have picked the odd wine here and there in blind tastings,
it's still work in progress.

[swirler]

HoG (or Mt Ed.) are rather easy to pick out in a blind tasting. Their style is rather distinctive IMO. That's not a value judgment.

[Matt@5453]

From Hently Farm's website:

Clos Otto Shiraz 2005 $1,000 per bottle (current release is $180)

[Brucer]

From Hently Farm's website:

Clos Otto Shiraz 2005 $1,000 per bottle (current release is $180)

Haha pricing for this. I have managed to drink my way thru almost a dozen. Got one left. Happily sell it for $800.
As to the previous comments, I am staying out.
Sydney Wine Tasting group have a 2008 tasting tonight.
I dont believe there will be a HOG included.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I have read the entire post, in particular the last few pages, in entirety, more than once. Am I correct, or close to it, in thinking:

1. Some restaurants charge a lot for wine, especially at the lower RRP price point;

2. Jamie really likes Hill of Grace;

3. Everyone else probably would like Hill of Grace, because it is a pretty good wine, but either cannot afford it or cannot justify it on a cost/benefit/value type ratio (this is not a criticism but a statement of fact);

4. People sometimes take wine way too seriously;

5. In relation to point 1, it is good to know where these price gougers are and avoid them;

6. In relation to points 2-5, maybe everyone should just relax and have a drink. HoG if you have it, but any old SA shiraz will do.

Brilliant. Really. A perfect summary. It was all there for everyone to see but it took you to point out No.4.

Mahmoud.

[Mike Hawkins]

HoG (or Mt Ed.) are rather easy to pick out in a blind tasting. Their style is rather distinctive IMO. That's not a value judgment.

Agreed, especially if put up against riper Barossa styles. Henschke oak handling becomes easier to pick in tastings than most producers.

[JamieBahrain]

2. Jamie really likes Hill of Grace;

True. But it's more than that. In my experience presenting the wine it has delivered - more so than Grange- in company with the world's great syrah wines from Cote Rotie and Hermitage. I've been proud of the wine in a world dismissive of Australian wine, because it was convincing as one of the greatest against Chave, Chapoutier, Jamet, Guigal etc.

15 to 20 years ago, $50 was a good ball park to try find premium Australian wine. Mt Edelstone was $40-$50 for instance and that is a wine that has outperformed Hill of Grace. The original Rockford SVS come to mind- Flaxman, Helbig, Hoffman at $50 delivered. Basket Press was solid, more so than today. Not so many of my wines I bought have delivered the same quality and I could move around each Aussie wine region with examples but I'd prefer to start another thread using HH's Grange alternatives from 1997. One region I regret not buying in extensively was the Hunter- at their best I loved the wines but I was always caught up elsewhere.

Jamie if you can pick the HOG in these conditions (and it sounds like you can) I'd be impressed.
I say that with the least amount of sarcasm and cynicism possible too.

Very unique house style as Swirler states. Seasoned oak and Five spice for mine, some described it as flytox. It runs right through their shiraz range. Young vintages these days with screw cap and riper blue fruits would catch me but the classic house style stands out- especially when lined up with the French top flight syrah.