The 'What's your thoughts on this wine' Thread

[Polymer]

It's a relative thing... years ago I was lucky enough to get invited to taste a lineup of around 15 new release hunter semillon - all double blind. At the time I recall picking both the Tyrrell's Vat 1 and the Mount Pleasant Lovedale as two of the top 3 - the primary reason was they were more balanced.

What is balance in this case though? Both of those Sems are vastly different with Lovedale being much riper and fuller and Vat 1 carrying much more acidity....

I'm not saying people can't judge young Sems..they obviously know what to look for...but I'm asking if people can describe what that is...Balance would suggest the right amount of acid vs. fruit (could be some other stuff as well I guess) but in the case of Vat 1, it is tipped on the far side of acid vs. fruit.. This is against other Sems that, when younger, have a much better balance between fruit and acid... Is it a certain taste you get from the fruit? Purity? With 5 or so years it becomes a lot easier to see where the wine will be going looking at the intensity and the acid..

I'm legitimately interested in this subject..I love Hunter Sem...and Vat 1 being my favorite it would really be nice to get a better picture of what people are looking at when it is young. Like I said, for me, if the acid is there, I know it'll age...somewhere in there is quality fruit as well and maybe this is just where I'm missing it...and it isn't that I dislike acid either...At some point in the future, it is one of those wines I wouldn't mind trying to make on my own but I'd like to not have to wait 5+ years and vintages later to start adjusting what I was doing...

[winetastic]

Struggling to work out how to put this into words, but ill have a go...

What is balance in this case though?

I guess I'm trying to say "more balanced" relative to other young Sems. Similar to the same situation with say a young Cabernet, the tannins of a serious one may offer only the most perverse of us any drinking pleasure, yet one can still determine if the acid, fruit, alcohol, etc are in balance relative to the amount of tannin. With a young Semillon, its acid vs minerality, texture, fruit, grassy notes, etc.

I'm legitimately interested in this subject..I love Hunter Sem...and Vat 1 being my favorite it would really be nice to get a better picture of what people are looking at when it is young. Like I said, for me, if the acid is there, I know it'll age...somewhere in there is quality fruit as well and maybe this is just where I'm missing it...and it isn't that I dislike acid either...At some point in the future, it is one of those wines I wouldn't mind trying to make on my own but I'd like to not have to wait 5+ years and vintages later to start adjusting what I was doing...

I think there is something to be said for the quality of the acid as well... Vat 1 can be very acidic yet strangely drinkable at the same time. Like great Nebbiolo tannin that is super silky vs gross oak barrel tannin that is rather course, I think acidic young whites can have a spectrum in how they are structured up too.

[Red Smurf]

I'm not saying people can't judge young Sems..they obviously know what to look for...but I'm asking if people can describe what that is...Balance would suggest the right amount of acid vs. fruit (could be some other stuff as well I guess) but in the case of Vat 1, it is tipped on the far side of acid vs. fruit.. This is against other Sems that, when younger, have a much better balance between fruit and acid... Is it a certain taste you get from the fruit? Purity?

I'll have a stab. Really hard to assess Vat 1 young in a horizontal. They make good Vat 1 year in year out. They are just a little different. Why? Fruit quality pure and simple. Fruit rots easily in the Hunter. Tyrrells and Mount pleasant have larger vineyard areas (often better ones as well) and can be more selective where as a small producer has a small area and takes what they get. It is easier to assess a small producers fruit as they take the bumps of the vintage harder. In good vintages everyone seems to make a good sem. In bad years it's easier to identify the winemakes that didn't do too well. What am I looking for. Fruit intensity and no dullness. I often get a dull fruit sense in bad rot vintages. Homework for you is do a horizontal of 07, 08, 09 and you will see what I mean. Yep, they are a bit older now but when I did them young, 08 showed the scars of the vintage well in many winemakers portfolios and that dull sense of fruit.
That is the main thing but then there is experience. You have to drink the stuff! You tend to remember the good years that have aged well and what they were like when young. The good ones have the things described above, are built well, but they always seem to be holding back something in reserve. Goes for any wine really....

[Polymer]

Redsmurf: well specifically I'm talking about Vat 1s..which I think are very difficult to assess but you're right, part of the problem is really drinking it young and getting that experience with it...I've had enough to know I don't get any enjoyment out of drinking them young but maybe that is what I need to do if I want to crack this...

Winetastic: I don't know..I don't find them drinkable at all..and when I say that I mean the latest vintages, not the ones they release to the public but to their private bin members you get the latest one..but I find them oddly boring which is why I'm interested in what people are seeing in them that young. With 5 years (when they normally release them), that's fine, I can see where it is going, the fruit purity, intensity and I can see it has the acid to carry it long haul...that's all good and fine..but year 1, I just lack the experience in drinking them like that to guess at what they might become later so just trying to understand the markers people are looking at...

[Red Smurf]

Redsmurf: well specifically I'm talking about Vat 1s..which I think are very difficult to assess but you're right, part of the problem is really drinking it young and getting that experience with it...I've had enough to know I don't get any enjoyment out of drinking them young but maybe that is what I need to do if I want to crack this...

No need to drink that lemony water. I would be happy to buy blindly on Vat 1 as long as its a good vintage. Bad vintages I would want to taste. The dull sense of fruit and lack of intensity comes into it then.
I don't mind them young but I agree it is a bit of a waste. I would much rather drink them old. That's when they are worth the money and the most amazing wines when they change.

[Polymer]

Haha...pretty much I think Vat 1 is an easy buy all the time...I guess I'm just trying to figure out what people are seeing in them young that make it easy to see if it is a good year. Not comparing it to other Sems but to other vintages. I do think Vat 1 is amazingly consistent but some years are better, it would just be good to understand what exactly..whether that be to judge how it ages or just learning a bit more about what I'm tasting...

I love aged Vat1.too bad there is going to be this gap where most of the ones under cork are done (and the strike rate of good bottles continues to plunge) and screwcaps are still too far away from being where I want them...The 2003s under SC are still 10-15 years away I reckon...

[Bobthebuilder]

imagine if those 99's were under screwcap!

[deejay81]

Sorry to break up the young Sem talk, but...

I've been really enjoying Supertuscan's recently, particularly Ornellaia. Over the past year or so i've had 01,02,03,04,05,06,11 and out of those, they were all spectacular, if a little young. The 05 was the only one that was a little short on the finish.

I've also started buying some Sassicaia (but haven't tried any), hoping they will be just as nice or nicer? the 98 being my most recent purchase.

How do these two Supertuscan's compare if they compare at all? Sassicaia is a little more pricey than Ornellaia, is it worth the extra $$ ?

Also, any other Supertuscan suggestions as both of these are on the high end of $$$$ and would be nicer to find cheaper alternatives too! Thanks!

[Mahmoud Ali]

As nice as the super Tuscans can be I'm pretty well over these Cabernet and Merlot-based Tuscan wines. Sure they created a buzz when Tignanello (a Sangiovese wine with about 20% Cabernet) and Sassicaia (probably the first all Cab wine) came out but I would much rather have a good Chianti Riserva or a Brunello for far less money. The way I look at it there are plenty of Cabernet wines from places like Bordeaux, California, Chile and Australia so why trade good Tuscan sangiovese for cabernet and merlot?

And with that I make a hasty retreat.

Mahmoud.

[deejay81]

so why trade good Tuscan sangiovese for cabernet and merlot?

Because it tastes nice to me?

Don't get me wrong, I like Tuscan sangio's and I do like the cab based wines from the regions you mentioned too, im just into, right now, Supertuscans not that I've tried many, but of the ones I have, I've been very impressed... hence my question... that you didn't answer

[ufo]

I came a cross a Kalleske Old Vine and I think it was a grenache, I'll go back and have a look and I don't know the vintage.

It's the grenache 2015. Thoughts? We've only tried two other Kalleske's before (a GSM and shiraz) and neither stood out. The GSM had an odd nose to it.

Kalleske Old Vine Grenache is the best Ozzie Grenache with great aging potential IMO.
Finished drinking dozen of 2003 in 2015 and it was mind blowing. I have never known that Grenache could be so perfumed on the nose and very complex on the palate, had a very long finish and I swear that I could still taste the wine in my mouth the next morning. After having a chat with Troy Kalleske piled up 2012 casue he said it was very reminiscent of 2003. Haven't tasted the recent vintage but it has been very consistent wine and there wasn't any bad vintage that one should avoid buying. I would give it 10 years in cellar before touching it, not that it is not good drinking young but I prefer secondary characters it develops with age in bottle.

[Ozzie W]

Also, any other Supertuscan suggestions as both of these are on the high end of $$$$ and would be nicer to find cheaper alternatives too! Thanks!

Grattamacco Bolgheri Superiore or the Grattamacco Bolgheri Rosso.

As nice as the super Tuscans can be I'm pretty well over these Cabernet and Merlot-based Tuscan wines. Sure they created a buzz when Tignanello (a Sangiovese wine with about 20% Cabernet) and Sassicaia (probably the first all Cab wine) came out but I would much rather have a good Chianti Riserva or a Brunello for far less money. The way I look at it there are plenty of Cabernet wines from places like Bordeaux, California, Chile and Australia so why trade good Tuscan sangiovese for cabernet and merlot?

I've been starting to think along these lines too. The more Supertuscan's I drink, the more I wonder why I bother. If I want an international style of international varietals, there are many other cheaper options.

[Ian S]

I'm not at all expert on Supertuscans, but Ornellaia is a very enjoyable wine - so easy it feels slightly morally dubious!

Tignanello is the obvious other wine, but for fun, look out for Vigorello, the wine argued to be the real originator of the supertuscans.

If you want to branch out a little, the Isole e Olena 'Paolo di Marchi collezione' wines might appeal. The syrah for me is a cracker, even in a poor vintage like 1994. The Cabernet Sauvignon a safer bet?

50:50, a joint venture between Avignonesi and ??? also worth a try, though I've no idea pricewise. I think their Desiderio Merlot is pricier than most.

I'm keen to try San Leonardo from Trentino. A mountain version of the genre, with an ex-supertuscan winemaker.

For good QPR, Poliziano do a Mandrone di Lohsa from around Cortona. Very enjoyable when I expected not to like it. Might be worth exploring this area as I know there were significant plantings in the recent past, with high hopes.

[Mahmoud Ali]

so why trade good Tuscan sangiovese for cabernet and merlot?

Because it tastes nice to me?

Fair enough, but I was really talking about myself.

Don't get me wrong, I like Tuscan sangio's and I do like the cab based wines from the regions you mentioned too, im just into, right now, Supertuscans not that I've tried many, but of the ones I have, I've been very impressed... hence my question... that you didn't answer

Well, I would have thought that it was understood from my response. The answer is, bearing in mind that it is to my way of thinking, no, they're not worth the money. And this is coming from someone who owns a few bottles of both Tignanello and Sassicaia, the oldest ones costing C$23 and C$26 a bottle, roughly double the price of a Chianti Riserva back then.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

[Scotty vino]

I'll be heading up to rockfords in a couple of weeks to sample and buy.
I noticed when I tried the 2011 BP it was eclipsed by the 12 RR in a tasting lineup. bought both though.
last year that was reversed with 12 BP putting it's nose back in front of the 13 RR. IMO anyway.
So what are the thoughts on the 13 BP and 14 RR.?

[Redav]

I can't provide a comparison between the two and I don't know if this will help but here's some random ramblings;

- I quite like the 2014 RR
- I had a 2013 RR over the weekend and while it was good, I think I liked the 2014 more
- Cellartracker says I've scored them both with 3's and 4's (on my scale 3 means I'd happyilly take it to someones for dinner, 4 is I really like it and I'd happily gift it)
- Cellartracker says I've consumed more 13's than 14's but I've probably bought similar amounts and still have more 14's to drink
- I still think I liked the 2011 RR more than either
- But I loved the 2011 BPS (but aside from one glass from an earlier vintage, I've only ever had two 2011's)

(The last two comments might help calibrate my ramblings)

I've ordered 3 x 2013 BPS as a non-Stonewaller to keep as birth year wines. There's a wine bar near work that has some available and I'm tempted to grab a bottle to try but I find it tough to part with a lot more hard-earned than it goes for at the cellar door (pros and cons, I know).

[Hunter]

I called into rockfords today to try the new release's. The 14 R.R would have to be the most approcable new release cabernet ive ever had. Its ready to go. Hidden tannin, No green or capsicum. Juicy black fruits. I dont think theres any need to cellar it. Just enjoy. 13 BP just as good as last year

[Scotty vino]

thanks for the thoughts and tips.
it's a decent tasting if you go the full gamut.
the boss is a bit of a fan of the Local Growers Semillon so I'll be interested to taste it again.
had a 12 LG sem with some thai a few weeks ago and it matched well i thought.
Black shiraz? I balked at this last year. Thought it lacked a bit of finesse from memory.
How's it travelling?

[phillisc]

Scotty V, I will be popping up in a week or two, have had periods over the journey where might just order via the mailer for 2-3 years, then find myself at the winery 3 times in 12 months.
I am umming and arrhing about taking the last plunge into the SVS's...have 96-98, then 02-04...don't know what happened in the middle years, but released as 11 year olds...has their time come?
I generally get an allocation of BP and some Riesling, plus rod and spur is the definitive wine for me (smashes so many other over-hyped clarets out of the park)
I admit the cab is often very smart too....in fact hard to argue that anything in the range does not appeal.
Cheers
Craig

[Scotty vino]

Craig your Rockies history far surpasses mine. Ive only been buying from the cellar door since the 2008/09 vintage.
I've been a regular member for 2-3 years I'd say. I'm happy to go up 'round this time every year and get amongst it.
As much as I like to diversify when visiting the barossa Rockfords has always been a fairly stock standard go to visit.
Always friendly and wines always solid. To the everyday wine drinkers their premium gear may seem a little
expensive, but for us wine geeks and appreciators they still hold pretty good VFM IMO.

[Matt@5453]

Craig your Rockies history far surpasses mine. Ive only been buying from the cellar door since the 2008/09 vintage.
I've been a regular member for 2-3 years I'd say. I'm happy to go up 'round this time every year and get amongst it.
As much as I like to diversify when visiting the barossa Rockfords has always been a fairly stock standard go to visit.
Always friendly and wines always solid. To the everyday wine drinkers their premium gear may seem a little
expensive, but for us wine geeks and appreciators they still hold pretty good VFM IMO.

The BP and RR are a standard annual buy for me, I've only bought them ex the cellar door after tasting the wines, and the quantities purchased are based on my tasting at the time; I've actually bought more Cab than Shiraz over the last 2-3 years. The only other wine I have bought of theirs in an Alicante Bouche, I am not a fan of the rest. I too plan to get over there in the next couple of weeks to have a look at the wines, and if I get time drop into Brett Grocke's to have a look at his new releases if he is available.

As a mate put it to me, you can't really go wrong with the BP, at 10 years of age it is reasonably consistent wine year in year out and it is generally a "crowd pleaser". As you have said Scotty, and I totally agree: "they still hold good VFM", relatively speaking.

[Hunter]

Scotty your in luck, the sparkling had finesse' written all over it
Sémillon with thai .. garlic/sugar/lime juice. Perfection

[rooman]

imagine if those 99's were under screwcap!

I still have a half case of the 99. it is amazing how little movement they have made over the past two decades. in some ways the 99s are not dissimilar to Loire Chenin Blanc.

[rooman]

What's the Wynns Riesling like?

I tried it at a dinner TWE put on last year. My suggestion at the time was that they should probably use the root stock for another grape variety and clone something else onto the vines such as chardonnay.

Mark

[George Krashos]

I am umming and arrhing about taking the last plunge into the SVS's...have 96-98, then 02-04...don't know what happened in the middle years, but released as 11 year olds...has their time come?

The 06 SVS releases currently available in the Stonewall Cellar are the last ones made. There will be no more SVS wines after these.

-- George Krashos

[Polymer]

I am umming and arrhing about taking the last plunge into the SVS's...have 96-98, then 02-04...don't know what happened in the middle years, but released as 11 year olds...has their time come?

The 06 SVS releases currently available in the Stonewall Cellar are the last ones made. There will be no more SVS wines after these.

-- George Krashos

I think that's a shame really....Not a fan of every SVS but I do think it is interesting to get to try side by side or against a BP...in a lot of cases I feel they hold a bit more interest than the standard BP (which I think is great value but on a bit of the boring side).

[phillisc]

I am umming and arrhing about taking the last plunge into the SVS's...have 96-98, then 02-04...don't know what happened in the middle years, but released as 11 year olds...has their time come?

The 06 SVS releases currently available in the Stonewall Cellar are the last ones made. There will be no more SVS wines after these.

-- George Krashos

Thanks George for the tip, to appease the better half, I will put in a mail order for everything else and buy the SVS's when I am up there in a week or two. Hopefully bill shock will not be too severe
Cheers
Craig

[phillisc]

What's the Wynns Riesling like?

I tried it at a dinner TWE put on last year. My suggestion at the time was that they should probably use the root stock for another grape variety and clone something else onto the vines such as chardonnay.

Mark

Mark, I agree. I am a fan, but find the the Wynns Riesling needs to be served iced cold as it does not have the depth or acid to really get the palate going. If they keep it which i suspect they will, then its a $10 cheapie. The chardonnay needed to go decades ago, the most uninspiring wine, even Lindies Bin 65 drinks better.
Cheers
Craig

[Redav]

The 06 SVS releases currently available in the Stonewall Cellar are the last ones made. There will be no more SVS wines after these.

Any idea why? I'd never heard of them before joining this forum let alone have had one. I think this is interesting given that someone mentioned in The Rag that people get too caught up in single vineyard wines.

I think that's a shame really....Not a fan of every SVS but I do think it is interesting to get to try side by side or against a BP...in a lot of cases I feel they hold a bit more interest than the standard BP (which I think is great value but on a bit of the boring side).

CellarTracker seems to think it's hit and miss with these wines. What do others think of them? Is there one that's the pick of the bunch? I'd hoped to try some at some point but given that I'm no Stonewaller and live in Brisbane, I can't see that happening.

Mark, I agree. I am a fan, but find the the Wynns Riesling needs to be served iced cold as it does not have the depth or acid to really get the palate going. If they keep it which i suspect they will, then its a $10 cheapie. The chardonnay needed to go decades ago, the most uninspiring wine, even Lindies Bin 65 drinks better.

I bought one after posting the question and then read on CellarTracker that the only score given by someone was an 83 with the comment poor quality fruit. I cracked it shortly after and it's the first wine I've said on CT that I disliked. It was bad and the five others who tried it too agreed.

[Matt@5453]

Mark, I agree. I am a fan, but find the the Wynns Riesling needs to be served iced cold as it does not have the depth or acid to really get the palate going. If they keep it which i suspect they will, then its a $10 cheapie. The chardonnay needed to go decades ago, the most uninspiring wine, even Lindies Bin 65 drinks better.

I bought one after posting the question and then read on CellarTracker that the only score given by someone was an 83 with the comment poor quality fruit. I cracked it shortly after and it's the first wine I've said on CT that I disliked. It was bad and the five others who tried it too agreed.

not sure why they persist with it, very ordinary indeed!