Henschke Mt Edelstone verus Chave Hermitage

[ufo]

$225 for Mt Ed are you serious?? LOLOLOL

Easy pass for the likes of Rockford, Wendouree, Clonakilla, etc.

sorry double post

[michel]

$225 for Mt Ed are you serious?? LOLOLOL

Easy pass for the likes of Rockford, Wendouree, Clonakilla, etc.

100% agreed. Looks like big H is following Penny's trail, good luck to them.
Still remember buying 1996 & 1998 HoG for $180 back in 2004.
No wonder why I stop buying anything from big H just like I did with Peny long ago.

as a student I recall the 86 HOG $36 dollars at the Mansfield Tavern Brisbane

[JamieBahrain]

If you had to pick one of the better recent vintages of Hermitage, what would you go for? 12/13/14 seem to be reasonably consistent in the eyes of the critics, whereas 10 had a fair bit of love. Thoughts?

I'd go 2010 any day, followed by 2012.

2013 is very smart too.

[brodie]

If you had to pick one of the better recent vintages of Hermitage, what would you go for? 12/13/14 seem to be reasonably consistent in the eyes of the critics, whereas 10 had a fair bit of love. Thoughts?

Chave basically never makes a bad wine, this is one maker where vintage does not matter. The so called lesser vintages at Chave can be a bit somewhat lighter, more delicate and are readier earlier. The bigger "vin de garde" vintages like 2010 are great but require 30 years if ageing to show their best. In many ways the lighter years are easier and more approachable wines and will show their best earlier. They are never under ripe but more refined expressions of site and grape. I buy 3 bottles every year without paying any attention to vintage ratings. Chave is for me the ultimate expression of Syrah. I am not really very objective as Chave is serious vinous love affair for me......

[JamieBahrain]

I buy 3 bottles every year without paying any attention to vintage ratings. Chave is for me the ultimate expression of Syrah. I am not really very objective as Chave is serious vinous love affair for me......

Very simple yet a very wise philosophy ! Wish I'd done that.

[JamieBahrain]

Hermitage seems to be really out of flavor. I'm enjoying a lovely bottle of Yann Chave Hermitage 2011 tonight, beautifully perfumed, sweet fruited and immediate though with length and class- a regal-like obstinate pride from a difficult vintage. This wine was an embarrassing bargain in Hong Kong and I scooped a few up along with Chave 2013- which though it wasn't dumped is undervalued as it sits in the upper echelons of the greatest wines of the world.

I found this from a few years back from Jancis' pink pages. Aussie wines are similarly out of flavor. I suppose if you believe in cyclic investment, Hermitage a good bet- though the diversity and extensiveness of Aussie shiraz suggests it may never be an investment class which makes Mt Ed's advancement interesting.

Even red Hermitage sales are 'not as high as they should be - it's bizarre', according to Philippe Guigal, although since his family firm's reputation is built on Côte Rôtie, the 'other' famous wine of the northern Rhône, he may be slightly biased. Why is Hermitage not as celebrated today as it should be?

[Polymer]

Could be the backlash against Shiraz hitting the Syrah market...For awhile it has been a difficult sell in the US marketplace and some places have essentially ripped up their Syrah because it isn't worthwhile making....and while the wine is completely different, if you don't want to drink Syrah, you might be less likely to buy an Old World Syrah..

Personally, I don't mind and actually prefer when a region is underappreciated (and therefore not as expensive)....I wish Burgundy was...

[Mahmoud Ali]

When it comes to cult labels and pricing all logic goes out the window. Despite the reputation of these wines there are innumerable others at better price points that, given proper cellaring, can be remarkable. If any of my bigger, more famous wines gives me the pleasure that I got from a modest 1975 Lindeman Burgundy at 25 years of age I'd be very happy indeed.

As for how pricing can work, here is the gist of a dinner time conversation at a prominent Australian winemaker's house as told to me by someone who was there:

Winemaker: How much do you think I should charge for my sparkling shiraz?
Wife: Well, it's your first sparkling shiraz and without a track record people won't pay too much.
Winemaker: So what do you think?
Wife: Perhaps A$25 to $30 should be about right.
Winemaker: I think I'll charge A$50.

The sparkling wine sold out in the first vintage.

Cheers ....................... Mahmoud.

[JamieBahrain]

Be $500 if an inaugural Henschke sparkling shiraz ….

[Mahmoud Ali]

Be $500 if an inaugural Henschke sparkling shiraz ….

Not surprising that it would, as that was my point. By the way the story I was told is 15 years old, so $50 was a fairly large amount.

Mahmoud.

[sjw_11]

Be $500 if an inaugural Henschke sparkling shiraz ….

Not surprising that it would, as that was my point. By the way the story I was told is 15 years old, so $50 was a faily large amount.

Mahmoud.

I just saw an offer this morning for the Ashton Hills sparkling 2008 @ $50/bottle... 50% of the grapes come from Wendouree's 1919 planting.

So I can buy that @ $50, Rockford @ $60-something, or the Seppelt Show Reserve for just under $100... why would I bother with the hypothetical Henschke at $500?? I can believe the Ashton Hills will be 10x better than, say, Yellowglen Red @ $5.90 from Dan Murphy. But will the Henschke be another 10x better?

Which I think is kind Mahmoud's point as well... I just feel above a certain price point the $/quality caps out and the $/brand spirals. I resist buying such wine (not that I can really afford it) in the same way I would never buy an LV branded bag or best of all those awful "H" Hermes belts.

Don't be this guy... (I don't think anyone ever worked out if he was a troll or not)... http://www.styleforum.net/t/249680/leav ... -to-others


I like to drink wine, I don't care if nobody else sees me drinking it and thinks "wow, what expensive wine he can afford" or more likely if they do see me drinking it and think "oh that label is not Mouton Leflaive Pichon Baron de Baroli 1965, what a pleb".

This is a reason I still proudly champion Australian wine and particularly producers such as Rockford, Wendouree, Tyrrell's, Marius, Hoodles, etc which make it a policy to keep prices within reason and reward loyal customers.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I was editing my previous post to correct a typo but hit the wrong button.

Anyway, since I'm here I might as well chime in and say that I too am fond of showcasing good Australian wines and they can indeed be relatively modest wines.

Mahmoud.

[Michael McNally]

I don't think anyone ever worked out if he was a troll or not... http://www.styleforum.net/t/249680/leav ... -to-others

I hope he was a troll, as that would be funny, as opposed to if he wasn't, which would be sad.

Cheers

Michael

[Con J]

Tasted the 2014 Mount Edelstone last night and I think it’s a fantastic wine.
I purchased 2 bottles at $190 each, well worth the asking price.

Cheers Con.

[rooman]

I don't think anyone ever worked out if he was a troll or not... http://www.styleforum.net/t/249680/leav ... -to-others

I hope he was a troll, as that would be funny, as opposed to if he wasn't, which would be sad.

Cheers

Michael

Ummmm, somebody has way to much time on their hands surfing style forums.

[phillisc]

My last thoughts on this, and indeed many many thanks for those of you who have PM me with some most encouraging remarks...its much appreciated.
I only tend to go off beam when its warranted and in the case of RRP increases >60% (then it does not matter who it is, or indeed the product sold)...its more than warranted.
I was at a function on the weekend where the marketing manager from said winery was present and the question was put, "who made the decision to inflate the RRP of a wine 60%?". The young lady's response at best was one of embarrassment, particularly when in earshot of several others...the reply was akin to George Brandis on last weeks Q&A...um well, yes, we made the decision based on, err...Humphrey B Bear playing the flute would have provided more!
Staff of said establishment (in an affluent part of Adelaide) suggested that this will be a rather tough sell and wonder on current form whether there will be a $1000+ wine to follow?
Cheers
Craig.

[JamieBahrain]

Craig would you have bought Mt Ed at $150 anyways? Which is what it is easily worth with international demand. I won't let you leave the thread until you get therapy.

When you leave ADL airport, there's Mt Ed in duty free. Arrive HKG there's Mt Ed duty free- right next to Chanel perfume and the checkered crap from Burberry. It's a LVMH like luxury product of sorts now.

I bought Mt Ed when those kids were running around the winery. A very loyal customer as I know you were. Now, friends/ family of immense wealth just buy that loyalty with personal dinners and tastings with Stephen drinking right back to the 60's.

I don't know how it will go offered in bond at 75£ +. Last release it was 45£.

[dave vino]

More snouts in the trough?

https://grapegrowerandwinemaker.com/201 ... er-claret/

[phillisc]

More snouts in the trough?

https://grapegrowerandwinemaker.com/201 ... er-claret/

Dave, my thoughts on this one are a little different..but yes its another .
Having had the opportunity to taste this wine four times now at the great Australian Red Competition over the last 3 years and to have a chat to KG...Winemaker Kevin Glastonbury, this was probably always going to be the direction. Being the often overlooked family winery in the Barossa( that lives in the shadow of other in said thread), they probably thought they'd better join the party. Plus I suspect that any wine company that has holdings in both Barossa and Coonawarra will make and release these wines...for a motza.
This probably is a small make, a sporadic release, but like first timers who decide to take the piss...seem to remember a winery in Coonawarra having a first release of a $100 cab, little pedigree...that never set the world on fire...this may follow suit .

In reference to the Caley, yes its good...worth 7 times what the FDR is...no.
Worth 8 times Signature...no.

Worth 15+ times Lake Breeze Bernoota that also won back to back awards, and also in successive vintages...absolutely not.
I suspect Matthew Jukes (rightly or wrongly) has done much to plug this wine and a fair bit of it will head to the UK..along with the inevitable marketing junkets to follow. It's a shoe in to feature in his Top 100 Aussie tasting roadshow later this year.

Cheers
Craig

[Mike Hawkins]

More snouts in the trough?

https://grapegrowerandwinemaker.com/201 ... er-claret/

No doubt more label dilution.. grapes taken from the Reserve, in turn taken from Signature and so on.... RWT, Bin 169 etc all over again....

[phillisc]

Yes Mike, spot on, overlooked the Reserve...although on current form it will be along time before there is evidence about dilution but suspect you are right.
2004 Reserve is the current release at CD!!

Cheers
Craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

More snouts in the trough?

https://grapegrowerandwinemaker.com/201 ... er-claret/

What a load of marketing bollocks. It's as if they've just discovered the importance of the Cabernet-Shiraz blend and the gumption to "go for it". What were they doing all these years when making the Signature, Reserves, and FDR 1As - admitting that they were not trying to make the best wine they could?

I'll wait till it's offered as a cleanskin.

Mahmoud.

[tuxy85]

I wouldn't personally justify paying the normal price for Mt Edelstone. However I have bought 2 bottles for ~$140 per bottle with the pre-purchase 20% discount through JR duty free in Brisbane. This discount also brings the Hill of Grace 2012 down to $640 per bottle.

[felixp21]

you can always tell when a wine is over-priced ..... the secondary market can't support the release price.
Mt Edelstone is now universally cheaper than the current release price, as is Bass Phillip Premium Pinot Noir.
The lag in new purchase is usually about 3-5 years, so in about two years time, the Henschkes are going to have a lot of Mount Edelstone on their hands
Same thing happened at Bass Phillip, you might have noticed a subtle decline in the release price of their Premium over the past two years.
So, if you want to buy the 2013 Geoffrey, just hang on a year or two, and pop on over to the Auction Houses. Same will apply to the later releases.
I purchased a straight dozen of the 2002 with known excellent provenance for $115 per bottle last year (in Australia), so the current pricing is laughable.

[JamieBahrain]

I agree Felix. That said, the secondary market has jumped for Mt Ed in my observation. I have a lot of old Mt Ed, perfectly cellared since release. I have told my wife if anything happens, give it away or drink, don't auction it off to the scroungers of the Aussie secondary auction market. They are getting a ridiculous and undeserved bargain.

Mt Edelstone for all the poo-pooing here has met my investment expectations when I was young if you consider retail pricing in your factoring- what do I have to buy it for in the future for example. It is a wine that is as good as HofG blind as discussed- perhaps with more attention to style and the vineyard it will consistently pip HofG in the future?

In 1994 I bought a CBD Grand Victorian Terrace in Melbourne. The house has outperformed the 1992 Mt Ed on the secondary market- though the appreciation the same if you have to buy Mt Ed now retail ( up by a factor of 5 - 7). My tax liability for Mt Ed zero. A later property bought in SYD the same increase I guess.

Mt Ed is tracking classic and well placed Aussie real estate. And will continue to do so. Itself, being single vineyard, is classic real estate in itself.

[Craig(NZ)]

Bought a swag of 94 Edelstones for $41. The last HOG I bought was 1992 for $150. Those were the days

But in the last decade I have only bought a couple of bottles of Henschke.. Edelstone and Cyril

2015 Trinity Hill Homage $120. That's where it is at my friends