RogerPike wrote:Oak has a positive role to play. As it should at $1500 a pop!
The difference is that, while the wine is in barrel, it is under my control. I can monitor it weekly, or even daily. I can blend from those barrels or reject them.
As soon as the wine is bottled it is out of my control and I don't want anybody or anything messing with it.
So much for my resolve to not comment further!
Roger
Well put. Understand it's (screwcap) a no brainer for you commercially and as a winemaker. Please, keep posting. Good to have a winemaker chime in on this discussion.
ufo wrote:yeah but u guys are missing a curial point that is Oak is specifically/deliberately used to impart flavours to wine whereas cork is just a closure and is used only to stop (or one can argue to minimize) O2 ingress while wine is aging.
That's true..but I'm pretty convinced a lot of the "aged" characteristics we see or even appreciate in older wines can often come from the cork although inadvertently by the winemakers.
I'm also not sure oak was originally used specifically to impart flavor..It has been used that way and intentionally used that way more recently..but it really should be more about the micro-ox and the influence on the tannins more so than trying to add flavor to the wine...
I agree with you on the cork flavours playing a part in aged characteristics.
Older barrels can be used if you want to add less or even no oak flavours whilst still being about the micro-ox and having an influence on tannins. Then again, you can still add tannins just on its own. Some well known winemakers do this and I've blended with them "adding tannins".
Thanks Roger. Can understand you not wanting to be bogged down on a thread but certainly appreciate your involvement. And I will confidentally squirrel away a few bottle soft your wines each year knowing they are delivering what the winemaker intended with sc.
Screw cap is delivering convincingly with white wines and I sure wish white Burgundy, white Hermitage and high end Austro-German rieslings were capped with a cork alternative ( there is a Chablis producer though I have not tried ) as it is quite distressing experiencing losses thus far due cork. And I'm not a rich guy that can accept these losses comfortably as many high end drinking friends seem too. Perhaps with reds, certain styles and regions are making the transition easier with better results seeming more immediate. The McClaren Vale for example, in my limited experience, is delivering adolescent to mature shiraz wines from my cellar more effectively than cork. Now my sample pretty limited and how and when and why I enjoy wines from the McClaren Vales may be a factor too.
If the wine aging process is truly anaerobic we are not far from being home and hosed.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
JamieBahrain wrote:Screw cap is delivering convincingly with white wines and I sure wish high end Austro-German rieslings were capped with a cork alternative
I've got some Egon Muller under screwcap, I hope they turn out alrite as they weren't cheap...
Have to start with "I'm not a wine maker" and "have not performed testing between cork / screwcap" so any comment is my personal opinion based on nothing
I think Roger's comment re the difference between oak input and cork input makes a lot of sense in terms of the winemaker's control over flavour / the end wine. I imagine that even for the "best of the best" cork products available there is no guarantee that no two corks are even from the same tree so any flavour input (and oxygen transfer rate) provided by the cork will make each and every bottle different with no control over how each bottle is going to end up - I would guess this scenario is pretty close to a winemaker's nightmare (and should also be a wine consumer's nightmare when you think about it - even ignoring TCA!).
As noted by many others on here and from what I have read online my understanding is that lack of / different development in screwcaps (if any) is likely to be primarily due to a lack of any oxygen transfer during aging (and perhaps the wines where this is noticeable were still made to a style which was based on the oxygen transfer rate of cork even though they were bottled under screwcap?...). Definitely something that can be overcome with the future of winemaking / screwcaps (variable OTR screwcaps are available currently and more are under development) but supports the observations of the OP and others. Like any new technology there will always be a learning process (for each vineyard in this case).
I also think it's interesting in the context of the discussion that cork closures have been only a very recent and small part of wine making's history timeline. Check out: http://winehistory.com.au/
Regardless, I wonder if increased decanting time (i.e. maybe hours more?) would have a big impact on aged screwcap red wines if they don't show well on opening?...
ufo wrote:yeah but u guys are missing a curial point that is Oak is specifically/deliberately used to impart flavours to wine whereas cork is just a closure and is used only to stop (or one can argue to minimize) O2 ingress while wine is aging.
That's true..but I'm pretty convinced a lot of the "aged" characteristics we see or even appreciate in older wines can often come from the cork although inadvertently by the winemakers.
I'm also not sure oak was originally used specifically to impart flavor..It has been used that way and intentionally used that way more recently..but it really should be more about the micro-ox and the influence on the tannins more so than trying to add flavor to the wine...
Yeah, u r right, may be I should have phrased as; Cork is deliberately/specifically used to change characteristics of wine ( what so ever it affects, micro-ox, tannins, flavour...... so on) whereas cork ..........
deejay81 wrote:I agree with you on the cork flavours playing a part in aged characteristics.
Older barrels can be used if you want to add less or even no oak flavours whilst still being about the micro-ox and having an influence on tannins. Then again, you can still add tannins just on its own. Some well known winemakers do this and I've blended with them "adding tannins".
Very interesting discussion, I am learning heaps and loving the well thought out points of view.
Firstly, I do not make purchasing decisions based on the closure, if I want the wine I get the wine.
My questions is, what is the value/point of using cork and the wax over the top (I do like it as it does feel very premium or luxe), is there some benefit the winemaker is trying to achieve? perhaps less ingress of oxygen or is it purely cosmetic?
Probably a combination of a few things including look and feel. No idea if it prevents the transference of oxygen (probably?) but with one of the fortifieds I have, I'd expect it's to prevent the plug from being knocked out between production and intentional opening.
Chris H wrote:To cap it all off... THE AGE June 16, 2009 Hill of Grace has done it. Now another premium winemaker concedes screw caps are the future for its top merlot. By Jeni Port. {CORK:}....nose was fungal and mushroomy - not unpleasant but not clean or fresh - with a dominating earthiness and some musky spice. The palate was strong, once again, on meaty, leathery, earthy notes with stewed plums and a pleasant dusty finish... {SCREWCAP:}...no fungal or mushie characters... freshness and vitality to it, with musky spice and lifted aromatics. The palate... cleaner and livelier.... plumminess more evident and the finish more defined.
There u go, another nail on the coffin for CORK
For me, the above demonstrates what discussion on this thread is getting at: either the cork-closed wine has more aromatic and palate development than the screwcap-closed wine has (due to having a higher OTR), or it the cork itself has impacted the flavour of the wine, or both. For my tastes, based on Jeni Port's notes, I would definitely prefer to drink the cork-closed wine here.
ufo wrote:You can get screw cap at any permeability rate you want. if you adjust your technique to the level of permeability you're going to have with screw cap, there is no issue at all
Agree that screwcap could be tailored for any OTR, but it's not currently being used/sold like that. It will take time for the "ideal" OTR to be worked out for particular wines/styles and winemakers will end up having preferences, but it can't be worked out if only a few different OTR's are available under SC. The above tasting notes are yet more evidence of how important this is!
sch5252 wrote:
Red Smurf wrote:
RogerPike wrote:Do I use screwcap or am I happy for all those 160 aroma and flavour compounds to mess with my wine?Roger
Appreciate your post on this Roger and don't take this the wrong way but isn't an oak barrel doing exactly the same thing?
Really? {....} cork is a simply a seal. Not sure what comparison you are really trying to make? Cork should add nothing to the flavour.
It's not just a question of whether it should, it's a question of how much it flavours a given wine. Doesn't matter if it's intentional or not, some people like those flavours. I am not saying corks should be used just to give that flavour, I'm just saying it's another aspect of the cork vs SC debate which is often overlooked.
dingozegan wrote:It's not just a question of whether it should, it's a question of how much it flavours a given wine. Doesn't matter if it's intentional or not, some people like those flavours. I am not saying corks should be used just to give that flavour, I'm just saying it's another aspect of the cork vs SC debate which is often overlooked.
I appreciate what you are saying. When drinking a new, or more relevant in this context an aged wine under cork, does one ever say "i really like the flavours the cork imparted on the wine" - no-one I would suggest. Its about the development of the wine holistically, as we know, cork is very good in most instances for allowing a wine to mature, but I am not convinced that cork 'flavour' is something that is desirable or that someone could separate it out from the flavour profile of the wine. I have never had a conversation with a winemaker or cork supplier over the 'flavour' of cork, it is a matter of getting the best treated cork (e.g. seal) for the type of wine being bottled. If you really want to get technical then you can starting looking at the type of treatment, the moisture content, vacuum, head space and so on; what impact do these all have, some suppliers claim their corks are more superior? This is where screw caps have a technological advantage over cork.
dingozegan wrote:It's not just a question of whether it should, it's a question of how much it flavours a given wine. Doesn't matter if it's intentional or not, some people like those flavours. I am not saying corks should be used just to give that flavour, I'm just saying it's another aspect of the cork vs SC debate which is often overlooked.
I appreciate what you are saying. When drinking a new, or more relevant in this context an aged wine under cork, does one ever say "i really like the flavours the cork imparted on the wine" - no-one I would suggest. Its about the development of the wine holistically, as we know, cork is very good in most instances for allowing a wine to mature, but I am not convinced that cork 'flavour' is something that is desirable or that someone could separate it out from the flavour profile of the wine. I have never had a conversation with a winemaker or cork supplier over the 'flavour' of cork, it is a matter of getting the best treated cork (e.g. seal) for the type of wine being bottled. If you really want to get technical then you can starting looking at the type of treatment, the moisture content, vacuum, head space and so on; what impact do these all have, some suppliers claim their corks are more superior? This is where screw caps have a technological advantage over cork.
From a quick scan of cork company websites (via google search while at work so neither scientific nor comprehensive), I couldn't find a single mention on these companies' websites of cork imparting 'cork flavours' into the wines. In fact the common theme was a claim to the opposite - that corks are naturally inert and do not impart flavour into the wine...
... that said, it could just be because even a hint of "cork flavouring the wine" immediately screams cork taint and not something they want to use to sell their product...
d) The average cork is an organic material that contains in excess of 160 identifiable aroma or flavour compounds (this figure was quoted to me by Diam Bouchage, the makers of Diam seals who have spent a lot of time and money on the subject).
Good point. My point was that cork companies' claims that their product is 'inert' - which would imply that any aroma's / flavour compounds in the cork would not get transferred to the wines. I'm not sure I believe it as there would logically be at least some transfer between the cork and the wine. I was just curious as to whether the cork companies thought cork did have a material positive impact on the flavour of the wine (other than oxygen transfer which is clearly marketed). Perhaps they market different 'flavour' corks to vineyards... just not on their websites?
For me screwcaps are a no brainer. I took two bottles to lunch yesterday. One was a Wynns JR 1998 under cork and the other was a Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier 2006 under cap. When we pulled the cork on the JR, it stuck of wet newspaper - well that was a waste of 15 years of cellaring. By way of contrast the Clonakilla stopped clients at the table in their tracks as people slowed down to appreciate the power of the wine. You just don't have the risk with screwcap that you have with cork. To make matters worse i had a JR out of the same case a month or so ago and it was superb so the only difference was cork.
bdellabosca wrote:My point was that cork companies' claims that their product is 'inert' {..} I'm not sure I believe it as there would logically be at least some transfer between the cork and the wine. {...} Perhaps they market different 'flavour' corks to vineyards... just not on their websites?
No, they want them to be inert from a flavour perspective, but they're not inert. The better quality corks leach less, but all of them leach to some extent.
I am still amazed the debate rages about leaky corks being a requirement for wines to age. The French have been running testing on this for centuries on white wine and in Australia for over 100 years on reds. It is called sparkling wine. It is under pressure and nothing is getting in there unless the cork is stuffed. I believe there was even a test done by submerging some at the bottom of the ocean for a couple of decades just to prove there was no air getting in.
Now on to Jamie's issue with the wine not maturing as he would like. I am pretty sure this is a wine making issue not a sealing issue and quite possibly as hypothesised wine makers being used to dealing with crappy leaking corks not a 100% perfect seal. I am sure they will all figure it out eventually.
Glen
Winner of the inaugural RB cork-count competition
Runner up RB-NTDIR competition
Runner up TORB TN competition
Leave of absence second RB c-c competition
GRB wrote:I am sure they will all figure it out eventually.
Yep well that was sort of my point. I'm livid with a 10% failure rate under cork but the point of the discussion is what of the SC wines un-trialled and perhaps as a consequence, with inappropriate wine making. That's a 100% failure rate.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
GRB wrote:I am still amazed the debate rages about leaky corks being a requirement for wines to age. The French have been running testing on this for centuries on white wine and in Australia for over 100 years on reds. It is called sparkling wine. It is under pressure and nothing is getting in there unless the cork is stuffed. I believe there was even a test done by submerging some at the bottom of the ocean for a couple of decades just to prove there was no air getting in.
I don't see a lot of debate on this thread, just some interesting discussion on the influencing factors of different closures.
The oxygen transmission rate of the closure, whether it's cork or screwcap or crown seal etc, plays a critical role in the development of a wine in bottle.
Sparkling wine cork closures breathe just like other corks - even good quality sparkling wine corks, and despite the fact they are under pressure, oxygen gets in. (Plus there's typically more oxygen in sparkling wines to start with because the headspace of the average sparkling wine is greater than the headspace of the average still wine.)
The AWRI (among others) have done quite a bit of research on this and I'd first refer anyone questioning the validity of the above to the actual science.
GRB wrote:I am still amazed the debate rages about leaky corks being a requirement for wines to age. The French have been running testing on this for centuries on white wine and in Australia for over 100 years on reds. It is called sparkling wine. It is under pressure and nothing is getting in there unless the cork is stuffed. I believe there was even a test done by submerging some at the bottom of the ocean for a couple of decades just to prove there was no air getting in.
I don't see a lot of debate on this thread, just some interesting discussion on the influencing factors of different closures.
The oxygen transmission rate of the closure, whether it's cork or screwcap or crown seal etc, plays a critical role in the development of a wine in bottle.
Sparkling wine cork closures breathe just like other corks - even good quality sparkling wine corks, and despite the fact they are under pressure, oxygen gets in. (Plus there's typically more oxygen in sparkling wines to start with because the headspace of the average sparkling wine is greater than the headspace of the average still wine.)
The AWRI (among others) have done quite a bit of research on this and I'd first refer anyone questioning the validity of the above to the actual science.
I thought we were over this. It has been scientifically proven hat wine does not require O2 to develop in the bottle.
GRB wrote:I am still amazed the debate rages about leaky corks being a requirement for wines to age. The French have been running testing on this for centuries on white wine and in Australia for over 100 years on reds. It is called sparkling wine. It is under pressure and nothing is getting in there unless the cork is stuffed. I believe there was even a test done by submerging some at the bottom of the ocean for a couple of decades just to prove there was no air getting in.
I don't see a lot of debate on this thread, just some interesting discussion on the influencing factors of different closures.
The oxygen transmission rate of the closure, whether it's cork or screwcap or crown seal etc, plays a critical role in the development of a wine in bottle.
Sparkling wine cork closures breathe just like other corks - even good quality sparkling wine corks, and despite the fact they are under pressure, oxygen gets in. (Plus there's typically more oxygen in sparkling wines to start with because the headspace of the average sparkling wine is greater than the headspace of the average still wine.)
The AWRI (among others) have done quite a bit of research on this and I'd first refer anyone questioning the validity of the above to the actual science.
I thought we were over this. It has been scientifically proven hat wine does not require O2 to develop in the bottle.
Do you want to qualify that statement so that it is correct?
dingozegan wrote:The oxygen transmission rate of the closure, whether it's cork or screwcap or crown seal etc, plays a critical role in the development of a wine in bottle.
I thought we were over this. It has been scientifically proven hat wine does not require O2 to develop in the bottle.
I didn't say that wine required oxygen to develop with bottle age, I just said the quantity of oxygen it receives plays an important role in its development*.
On the separate issue of whether continuing access to oxygen is required for wines to develop in bottle, I am not sure that the jury's out on that.
I know the 2005 study by Hart and Kleinig is often cited as evidence that "red wine doesn't need oxygen to age," but that study included screwcap closures (where there's still some oxygen ingress) - it didn't look at zero oxygen ingress. Actually, that study shows exactly my point above: that the oxygen uptake during bottle ageing significantly impacts development.
To be clear, I'm not saying that oxygen is required, I'm just saying I haven't seen any evidence to be able to arrive at that conclusion. I haven't seen any scientific studies that track bottled wine development under conditions zero oxygen ingress.
If you know of any studies that do show development under zero oxygen ingress, I would be very interested to know of them. Could you provide a reference?
*By development, I mean the phenolic, esterification, hydrolysis etc reactions that significantly change aroma and mouthfeel.
I'm waiting to open my Ampoule of Block 42 in 40 years to see if oxygen is required for aging. These are sealed under glass which needs to be snapped open to get to the wine. Maybe I should try one every 10 years to see how they are progressing? #bythecase #baller
dave vino wrote:I'm waiting to open my Ampoule of Block 42 in 40 years to see if oxygen is required for aging. These are sealed under glass which needs to be snapped open to get to the wine. Maybe I should try one every 10 years to see how they are progressing? #bythecase #baller
Happy to volunteer my fantastic palate to help out.
never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
AWRI is coming out with a report on red and whites in the very new future. Reading between the lines (figuratively as I haven't seen the report) both age 'better' under cork for the first few years then the difference in maturation disappears.
The shortcomings of cork over screwcap don't disappear however.
