JamieBahrain wrote:My concerns are that talking to Tony Brady his hands were tied with a winery analysed failure rate of near 10% and screw cap transition proceeded without analysis. Rockford dismiss screw cap though as a regular drinker of BP, variation a big issue in the 90's. Henscke flat out stated screw cap not ideal for its reds and I can see minor issues .
Do you have a source for the Henschke statement? I've not seen that other than saying how good Vino Lok was..and also concerns about reduction...but these are really old statement..
Don't waste your breath Poly, u can not convert these cork lovers. They will never ever have an objective look/consider/accept SC as a very very reliable alternative to cork, full stop.
ufo wrote:Don't waste your breath Poly, u can not convert these cork lovers. They will never ever have an objective look/consider/accept SC as a very very reliable alternative to cork, full stop.
Grrrrrrrrr
Perhaps like Peter Gago, I just don't want to walk up to the cliff edge in a herd, I'd prefer a little evidence through trial .
My cork liability is between 300 and 500 bottles statistically as a wine collector. At let's say 100 Aussie average per bottle .
If after 20 years my untrialled sc Wendourees taste like a 2 year old Barbera that's a concern too I hadn't considered til revising Aussie wines on a regular basis . That's a 100% failure rate to me.
Of course, hopefully my concerns are unfounded , but there's some real boring aged Aussie screw capped reds emerging .
I was hoping for a discussion not a screw cap intifada......I'll continue anyways .
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
Henschkes position has no doubt been fluid which I find warming as they too, haven't wandered up to the cliff's edge. Screw cap wasn't their fail safe panacea to cork, mentioned in writing and at cellar door. Sorry, no reference . Their position now would be if interest; I must visit again though I rarely do these days as there's little excitement at CD compared to the old days.
I've always banged on that Henschke is a storage critical wine to preserve some pretty wonderful aromatics . Taint too, even at modest levels ruins the beauty of their wines. The 90's run seemed to see a rapid movement toward alternative closures but again , I'm really pleased they have an open mind, though perhaps a little guarded for commercial reasons, than a simplistic,ideaological battleground plaguing many.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
Henschkes position has no doubt been fluid which I find warming as they too, haven't wandered up to the cliff's edge. Screw cap wasn't their fail safe panacea to cork, mentioned in writing and at cellar door. Sorry, no reference . Their position now would be if interest; I must visit again though I rarely do these days as there's little excitement at CD compared to the old days.
I've always banged on that Henschke is a storage critical wine to preserve some pretty wonderful aromatics . Taint too, even at modest levels ruins the beauty of their wines. The 90's run seemed to see a rapid movement toward alternative closures but again , I'm really pleased they have an open mind, though perhaps a little guarded for commercial reasons, than a simplistic,ideaological battleground plaguing many.
Anecdotal only, but a glance at their Web Site shows the current Hill of Grace as under screwcap, the 2010 Henschke Hill of Grace. Perhaps they have changed attitudes a little??
They have many of their wines under screwcap, with some under the Vinolok.
ps let's keep the discussion going, closed minds never help an interesting ongoing discussion!
I've never bought a wine based on the seal - honestly.
SC - provides a better "seal" and takes away the possibility of TCA. No cork shrinking due to weather conditions and potential oxidation. Easy to open. I can store the wine upright if required. Less variation. Cork - TCA. More susceptible to heat impact on the cork. I get to use my openers.
BUT
SC and cork age differently. From my experience cork seems to age the wine quicker. This could be good or bad. I haven't had that many problems with TCA.
My current preference is the way cork ages. Is that because I haven't had many / any 20 year old SC's? Maybe
I prefer aged wines and if there was a seal that could speed up this process, I'd consider it. Of course the seal is only one factor in how fast a wine ages. Maybe I should set my wine fridge to 20 degrees?
I appreciate all forms of alcohol, as long as its wine.
I've been taking note of the screwcap wines I have been drinking of late and one thing I have noticed, especially in Shiraz and Shiraz Blends is that there has been quite noticeable DMS in many. It's only been over about 8 wines so could just be coincidence but I thought it worthy to note. Does anyone know if DMS is increased or decreased by low ingress OTR? Just thought this may be a contributing factor in Jamie's Dull sense of fruit. Jamie, did you notice any DMS issues with the screwcap wines you thought were dull? Had a ox Jura the other day. Cork sodden right through and pushed into the bottle so probably doing just about nothing. It was delicious! I think if they go to screwcaps I might just get them to hand tighten them for me.
ufo wrote:Don't waste your breath Poly, u can not convert these cork lovers. They will never ever have an objective look/consider/accept SC as a very very reliable alternative to cork, full stop.
I think it is a bit unfair to characterize a person who has raised what is his reasonably held observations on the wine he has tasted in this fashion.
Croquet King wrote:I've never bought a wine based on the seal - honestly.
The same holds true for me and, like you, I prefer aged wines. I'm also at the stage where I have plenty of older wines and don't want anymore wines to cellar. I haven't been buying many Australian reds in the last few years as I have plenty of them from the late 90s and what I did buy of the early 2000s the screw cap vs cork wasn't consideration so I don't know which ones are screw capped. I mention Australian wines because the majority of fine wines from around the world are still sealed with corks.
Hill of Grace has done it. Now another premium winemaker concedes screw caps are the future for its top merlot. By Jeni Port.
TWO bottles of merlot, made in the same year, bottled on the same day and stored in the same winery cellar for more than a decade. The only perceivable difference is that one is plugged with a cork and the other has a cap of spun aluminium.
The wine under cork is in a tall, heavy-based, olive-green bottle and the screw-capped wine is in a lightweight green bottle because it was a test of the ageability of winemaker Jim Irvine's internationally awarded Grand Merlot under the then-new metal closure and was never released. It had rarely seen the light of day until both 1996 Grand Merlots were presented for a tasting in Melbourne on June 2.
The intervening years have worn the resolve of Jim and his daughter Joanne on the value of corks. Corked wine, oxidised wine and complaints from consumers seeking replacement wines have prompted the Eden Valley producers to move into screw caps on most of their wines.
But the Grand Merlot - one of Australia's most recognised and, at $120 a bottle, most expensive merlots - is different. "People want cork on more expensive wines," sighs Jim. Sixty per cent of the Irvines' production is exported and markets such as Germany and Japan demand cork.
A tasting of the two wines at dinners held around the country would help decide the question. In Melbourne, two bottles of each wine were opened, left to breathe, decanted and poured into glasses anonymously. After 13 years under different seals, would they taste markedly different?
Wine No. 1 was orange-red-cum-mahogany, clearly showing some age. The nose was fungal and mushroomy - not unpleasant but not clean or fresh - with a dominating earthiness and some musky spice. The palate was strong, once again, on meaty, leathery, earthy notes with stewed plums and a pleasant dusty finish. This wine, it was later revealed, was under cork and frankly, it showed.
Wine No. 2 was similar in colour but quite markedly cleaner on the nose with no fungal or mushie characters. Instead, there was a freshness and vitality to it, with musky spice and lifted aromatics. The palate, too, was cleaner and livelier, with the plumminess more evident and the finish more defined. This wine was under screw cap and the freshness we now associate with wines sealed under the closure was very much apparent, even 13 years after vintage.
A taste of the second bottle of each wine (poured on a neighbouring table) revealed an even greater discrepancy. The wine sealed under cork was corked, mildly but irretrievably. The second bottle under screw cap looked to be an identical twin to its screw-capped sister.
Joanne says under better light, she's noticed that the screw-capped Grand Merlot looks brighter as well as fresher. Sounds as if she might have made up her mind on the cork versus screw cap issue.
A former nurse, Joanne returned to the family vineyard and the study books at the age of 35 to qualify as a winemaker. She's a stickler for cleanliness in the winery and attention to detail, so it comes as no surprise that she's fed up with corks.
Still, she and her father had to be comfortable with what was happening to their top wine under screw cap over 10 years or more before they could confidently take the lead and promote their ageing benefits to consumers, especially those overseas who remain faithful to cork.
Chris H wrote:To cap it all off... THE AGE June 16, 2009
Hill of Grace has done it. Now another premium winemaker concedes screw caps are the future for its top merlot. By Jeni Port.
TWO bottles of merlot, made in the same year, bottled on the same day and stored in the same winery cellar for more than a decade. The only perceivable difference is that one is plugged with a cork and the other has a cap of spun aluminium.
The wine under cork is in a tall, heavy-based, olive-green bottle and the screw-capped wine is in a lightweight green bottle because it was a test of the ageability of winemaker Jim Irvine's internationally awarded Grand Merlot under the then-new metal closure and was never released. It had rarely seen the light of day until both 1996 Grand Merlots were presented for a tasting in Melbourne on June 2.
The intervening years have worn the resolve of Jim and his daughter Joanne on the value of corks. Corked wine, oxidised wine and complaints from consumers seeking replacement wines have prompted the Eden Valley producers to move into screw caps on most of their wines.
But the Grand Merlot - one of Australia's most recognised and, at $120 a bottle, most expensive merlots - is different. "People want cork on more expensive wines," sighs Jim. Sixty per cent of the Irvines' production is exported and markets such as Germany and Japan demand cork.
A tasting of the two wines at dinners held around the country would help decide the question. In Melbourne, two bottles of each wine were opened, left to breathe, decanted and poured into glasses anonymously. After 13 years under different seals, would they taste markedly different?
Wine No. 1 was orange-red-cum-mahogany, clearly showing some age. The nose was fungal and mushroomy - not unpleasant but not clean or fresh - with a dominating earthiness and some musky spice. The palate was strong, once again, on meaty, leathery, earthy notes with stewed plums and a pleasant dusty finish. This wine, it was later revealed, was under cork and frankly, it showed.
Wine No. 2 was similar in colour but quite markedly cleaner on the nose with no fungal or mushie characters. Instead, there was a freshness and vitality to it, with musky spice and lifted aromatics. The palate, too, was cleaner and livelier, with the plumminess more evident and the finish more defined. This wine was under screw cap and the freshness we now associate with wines sealed under the closure was very much apparent, even 13 years after vintage.
A taste of the second bottle of each wine (poured on a neighbouring table) revealed an even greater discrepancy. The wine sealed under cork was corked, mildly but irretrievably. The second bottle under screw cap looked to be an identical twin to its screw-capped sister.
Joanne says under better light, she's noticed that the screw-capped Grand Merlot looks brighter as well as fresher. Sounds as if she might have made up her mind on the cork versus screw cap issue.
A former nurse, Joanne returned to the family vineyard and the study books at the age of 35 to qualify as a winemaker. She's a stickler for cleanliness in the winery and attention to detail, so it comes as no surprise that she's fed up with corks.
Still, she and her father had to be comfortable with what was happening to their top wine under screw cap over 10 years or more before they could confidently take the lead and promote their ageing benefits to consumers, especially those overseas who remain faithful to cork.
JamieBahrain wrote:“We have always viewed screwcap as a transitional closure, poised between cork and, well, we don’t know what,” Henschke told me in New York yesterday.
Jamie
That's what I believe too, I believe its the best closure now I DO NOT want any wines under cork (too bad eh, as I love Italian Wines .. still )
So more than happy with Screw Cap until better comes along.
Do not believe in going back to cork, as I believe, purely my own belief, not any certainty, it is a terrible and inconsistent, and too widely variable a closure for wine.
Interested in what the screw cap winemaking strategy with Barolo would be. Secondary development crucial with Nebbiolo .
The article above I've seen before . The comments section interesting on the different screw caps regarding oxy ingress. Without trials , it would seem many have taken a gamble.
Had an 03 Kay's Hillside under SC. Very evolved Shiraz notes and with consideration to the vintage a very successful effort .
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
ufo wrote:Don't waste your breath Poly, u can not convert these cork lovers. They will never ever have an objective look/consider/accept SC as a very very reliable alternative to cork, full stop.
Grrrrrrrrr
Perhaps like Peter Gago, I just don't want to walk up to the cliff edge in a herd, I'd prefer a little evidence through trial .
My cork liability is between 300 and 500 bottles statistically as a wine collector. At let's say 100 Aussie average per bottle .
If after 20 years my untrialled sc Wendourees taste like a 2 year old Barbera that's a concern too I hadn't considered til revising Aussie wines on a regular basis . That's a 100% failure rate to me.
Of course, hopefully my concerns are unfounded , but there's some real boring aged Aussie screw capped reds emerging .
I was hoping for a discussion not a screw cap intifada......I'll continue anyways .
I was wondering if the SC wines that have been deemed to be failures are, in fact, failures because of the wine and not the closure?
This same argument goes on in all the audio websites I'm a member of. Except that it's digital versus analogue. Except that it's not analogue as such, but vinyl. And the music (if you call some of it that) always comes from the same source - a digital master. Yet for some reason, a fallible playback system, with lousy dynamics, and heaps of potential for a bit of dirt or hair to destroy the music - is deemed to be superior to something that can reverse engineer the bits into a replica of what was created in the studio.
I see the same thing in cork versus other enclosures. There was (and still are, I think) some fake corks made of some sort of plastic, which I would guess are OK for a year or so, but knowing plastic degradation - I doubt that there would be any long-term use for these. There's beer bottle tops, which may or may not provide a useful medium term seal, but I'm not sure about the long-term viability due to the exposed plastic on the underside of the crown seal. And the other enclosures all appear to be variations on the Stelvin. The advantages of the non-screw cap enclosures is basically an accelerated aging when compared to the Stelvin, while losing a lot of the freshness and vibrancy you get from an aged SC bottle. And risking taint from the various components of the closure materials - I have yet to find a bottle with al-taint, but I keep a nose out for it. The 'argument' will not really be decided until another 30 or so years down the track when some of the longer lived wines start to show their real potential - gone will be the old boots and earth nose and the stewed plums and earthy palates, replaced by the freshness of a well matured, yet vibrant wine. I may not live to see some of the wines I have now come to full fruition, but I'm hoping some from the next generation will.
Jonathan
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
Mahmoud Ali wrote:I noticed that Penfold's will be holding a Re-corking Clinic in Vancouver, Canada on the 28th. I suppose this too will become a relic of the past.
Cheers ....................... Mahmoud.
I'm guessing not - they want the premium wines to be kept just that, premium. The clinic is one such item that keeps it such - and also helps the brand know how well their wines are doing. Especially if Grange moves to SC.
One wonders if the Grange under SC is not showing the proper improvement - will they offer to reseal under cork at some time in the future?
Jonathan
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
a) Bottled wine will mature and develop normally in an anaerobic environment i.e. without oxygen ingress.
b) A screwcap and a "perfect" cork will both allow very little, almost zero, oxygen ingess.
c) A screwcap liner is an inert material that will not impart aromas or flavours to the wine.
d) The average cork is an organic material that contains in excess of 160 identifiable aroma or flavour compounds (this figure was quoted to me by Diam Bouchage, the makers of Diam seals who have spent a lot of time and money on the subject).
I am sure that not everyone will accept these "givens" but there have been reputable scientific studies which support the above.
So, let's assume that I am able to source a supply of 100% "perfect" corks. Do I use screwcap or am I happy for all those 160 aroma and flavour compounds to mess with my wine?
Of course I am unlikely to get 100% "perfect" corks so if I choose to use cork I am also introducing the dreaded TCA and random oxidation as well as all those "musty" and "corky" aromas and flavours.
I have been using screwcaps since 2002 and I am very happy with the development of all of my wines. I have heard critics of screwcaps use the words 'dull' and 'strangled' but I find my aged wines to be fresh and vibrant while still developing normal aged characters.
Perhaps it is sometimes easier to blame the closure rather than the wine?
That is why I use screwcaps. I know that some will wish to dispute what I have written and that is your prerogative but I do not intend to post further on this thread, I will just continue to use screwcaps until something better may come along.
RogerPike wrote:d) The average cork is an organic material that contains in excess of 160 identifiable aroma or flavour compounds....
So, let's assume that I am able to source a supply of 100% "perfect" corks. Do I use screwcap or am I happy for all those 160 aroma and flavour compounds to mess with my wine? Roger
Appreciate your post on this Roger and don't take this the wrong way but isn't an oak barrel doing exactly the same thing?
RogerPike wrote:d) The average cork is an organic material that contains in excess of 160 identifiable aroma or flavour compounds....
So, let's assume that I am able to source a supply of 100% "perfect" corks. Do I use screwcap or am I happy for all those 160 aroma and flavour compounds to mess with my wine? Roger
Appreciate your post on this Roger and don't take this the wrong way but isn't an oak barrel doing exactly the same thing?
Really?
With oak you have a reasonable degree of "control" through the maturation process. You pay a serious amount of $$ for good quality oak, that in most instances delivers what you pay for. Oak is designed to impart a supporting flavour profile, a richness and depth to the wine through the maturation process. cork is a simply a seal. Not sure what comparison you are really trying to make? Cork should add nothing to the flavour.
RogerPike wrote:d) The average cork is an organic material that contains in excess of 160 identifiable aroma or flavour compounds....
So, let's assume that I am able to source a supply of 100% "perfect" corks. Do I use screwcap or am I happy for all those 160 aroma and flavour compounds to mess with my wine? Roger
Appreciate your post on this Roger and don't take this the wrong way but isn't an oak barrel doing exactly the same thing?
Really?
With oak you have a reasonable degree of "control" through the maturation process. You pay a serious amount of $$ for good quality oak, that in most instances delivers what you pay for. Oak is designed to impart a supporting flavour profile, a richness and depth to the wine through the maturation process. cork is a simply a seal. Not sure what comparison you are really trying to make? Cork should add nothing to the flavour.
I wouldn't say oak flavours are the same as cork flavours, but they are both (potentially) adding multiple aroma or flavour compounds to the wine, which I suspect is Red Smurf's point, i.e 'messing with my wine'.
"Cork should add nothing to the flavour" you say. Well I think they do add some flavour, and always have, even if sometimes very very subtle, and sometimes even undetectable. I suppose some add very close to nothing at all, it's a natural product so variation is obviously rife in many areas.
Not that I care or notice it much (I hate cork variability and TCA), but I do feel some excellent old bottles were likely helped on their way to greatness by some cork flavour compounds, but who could really say for sure without lots of scientific testing (and even then it would probably not be conclusive).
Getting back to that Merlot test of the four bottles, two of each, it sounded like I would have preferred Wine No. 1 - the first cork one!! All that talk of mushrooms, forest floor, earth, musky spice, dusty finish.....mmmmm .... (ok maybe not stewed plums though). But given a choice of what one to buy, SC every time, 100%. Not that I've ever had an Aussie Merlot that I've liked or bought.
Yeah, pretty much Tigger, If you state you have perfect corks but still wouldn't use them because they are of organic material and may contain 160 flavour compounds and you don't want that touching your wine, you probably shouldn't be using oak barrels either as they are doing exactly the same thing all other things aside. And I'm with you on the 1st wine, sounds like a mature wine and the other wine sounds boring. Sort of highlights Jamie's concerns perfectly. Not everyone likes a fresh, pure wine as pointed out in wine 2.
yeah but u guys are missing a curial point that is Oak is specifically/deliberately used to impart flavours to wine whereas cork is just a closure and is used only to stop (or one can argue to minimize) O2 ingress while wine is aging.
Agree ufo. I guess what I am saying is Oak is an organic material as well. It's not made in a lab so every lenght of timber is different. It also contains a lot of flavour compounds and is variable. Every barrel of wine is going to be slightly different in the winery. It's why winemakers get critics to taste their best barrel and is one of the reasons why critics stopped scoring until its in bottle. If you want purity of raw product (grapes) then you could use stainless and micro-ox.
Oak has a positive role to play. As it should at $1500 a pop!
The difference is that, while the wine is in barrel, it is under my control. I can monitor it weekly, or even daily. I can blend from those barrels or reject them.
As soon as the wine is bottled it is out of my control and I don't want anybody or anything messing with it.
ufo wrote:cork is just a closure and is used only to stop (or one can argue to minimize) O2 ingress while wine is aging.
I wonder if winemakers two hundred years ago ever had the thought "I wish we could use a seal that was better than this cork stuff, my wine keeps changing"
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