JamieBahrain wrote:Opened a cork and screw capped Aussie. Both professionally cellared.
Shiraz by Farr 2008- Geez. It was the tightest cork I've ever tried to pull. Unbelievable. Did it's job thankfully. This is wonderful wine. I drink Northern Rhone most weeks and what I loved about this wine was its technical correctness and a purity. The comparisons to the Northern Rhone are easy to draw, but this so eclipses many. Wonderful wine.
94pts
Paringa Estate Shiraz 2005 ( screwcap )- Simple, down the line, pungent berry fruit with a a touch of earthiness. The palate delivers the aromatics and lacks a little energy- completes with what I deem as the problem with some screw capped wines, where the tannin evolution seems to be out of kilter with fruit development delivering an overall dullness.
88pts
Not sure this says much about screwcap versus cork. By Farr Shiraz might just be a much better wine than Paringa Estate Shiraz, vintages aside.
Agreed Ozzie, but was too full last night to to elaborate.
Anyone with experience with Paringa? I recall under cork a long time ago the wine being quite a classical cool climate expression- elegant, lean, white pepper sprinkles and a lighter fruit spectrum than a dreary undeveloped berriness .
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
I actually see the opposite...at least as far as 'lacks energy' is concerned.
If anything the older screw cap examples seem to have too much energy for what I'd expect...fruit is a bit too bright and fresh still...So everything we love with older rieslings under SC would apply but maybe isn't what we're looking for.
But maybe it is just what we're using as descriptions...the fruit on a SC wine is definitely more primary....and the wine doesn't seem as complex..and I can see what you're saying, the evolution seems off as the tannins have changed but the corresponding change in fruit flavor has not...I'm not sure I'd describe that as dull but maybe I'm using the wrong descriptions..
Polymer wrote:I actually see the opposite...at least as far as 'lacks energy' is concerned.
If anything the older screw cap examples seem to have too much energy for what I'd expect...fruit is a bit too bright and fresh still...So everything we love with older rieslings under SC would apply but maybe isn't what we're looking for.
But maybe it is just what we're using as descriptions...the fruit on a SC wine is definitely more primary....and the wine doesn't seem as complex..and I can see what you're saying, the evolution seems off as the tannins have changed but the corresponding change in fruit flavor has not...I'm not sure I'd describe that as dull but maybe I'm using the wrong descriptions..
Spot on
If you had to choose between drinking great wine or winning Lotto, which would you choose - Red or White?
Polymer wrote:I actually see the opposite...at least as far as 'lacks energy' is concerned.
If anything the older screw cap examples seem to have too much energy for what I'd expect...fruit is a bit too bright and fresh still...So everything we love with older rieslings under SC would apply but maybe isn't what we're looking for.
But maybe it is just what we're using as descriptions...the fruit on a SC wine is definitely more primary....and the wine doesn't seem as complex..and I can see what you're saying, the evolution seems off as the tannins have changed but the corresponding change in fruit flavor has not...I'm not sure I'd describe that as dull but maybe I'm using the wrong descriptions..
The flavor profile is mono-dimensional in some of these screw capped wines and the dullness for my palate is the simple dark berry profile of the wines. Not acceptable for a premium wine.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
JamieBahrain wrote:Opened a cork and screw capped Aussie. Both professionally cellared.
Shiraz by Farr 2008- Geez. It was the tightest cork I've ever tried to pull. Unbelievable. Did it's job thankfully. This is wonderful wine. I drink Northern Rhone most weeks and what I loved about this wine was its technical correctness and a purity. The comparisons to the Northern Rhone are easy to draw, but this so eclipses many. Wonderful wine.
94pts
Paringa Estate Shiraz 2005 ( screwcap )- Simple, down the line, pungent berry fruit with a a touch of earthiness. The palate delivers the aromatics and lacks a little energy- completes with what I deem as the problem with some screw capped wines, where the tannin evolution seems to be out of kilter with fruit development delivering an overall dullness.
88pts
This is a pointless comparison to support your original query. The proper comparison would have been to compare the same wine, identically stored and obtained from the same source, one under cork and one under screwcap.
Just observations and I have skin in the fight with both camps. The quality of cork in the By Farr worthy of comment as was the simplicity in evolution of a relatively complex wine of past . I just cracked these two wines yesterday and they do contribute to the discussion . Wish you blokes drank a bit more and added comment .
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
I have noticed the corks Farr uses to be exactly what Jamie mentioned, several times. We were discussing it on Friday night at the Pinot night as we watched Vinh struggle to get the ahso into a 2012 Farrside Pinot He gave up and used a corkscrew The cork was perfect, and noticeably longer and fatter. I've noticed the same thing with a few 15 odd year old LEAS Chards too in the last few years.
Bobthebuilder wrote:I have noticed the corks Farr uses to be exactly what Jamie mentioned, several times. We were discussing it on Friday night at the Pinot night as we watched Vinh struggle to get the ahso into a 2012 Farrside Pinot He gave up and used a corkscrew The cork was perfect, and noticeably longer and fatter. I've noticed the same thing with a few 15 odd year old LEAS Chards too in the last few years.
The only time I have used my ahso is to tease out broken corks - which, from memory, was why it was originally developed (also for corks that may have loosened and/or slipped down, making it nigh impossible to get a corkscrew into). Have never considered using it to remove a 'normal' cork/diam/whatever and I'm surprised that anyone would. Fortunately, this is less of an issue as the years go by and the ratio of screwcapped to cork-sealed wines in my collection shifts.
I actually wouldn't use one in a cork that has slipped down mainly because you risk pushing it in even more...although that is probably when a durand becomes very useful.
I dunno..maybe it is just me but I always feel like they're easy and safe to use with no fear of stripping the cork or breaking it in the bottle...
Raymo wrote: Have never considered using it to remove a 'normal' cork/diam/whatever and I'm surprised that anyone would.
Why do you find this surprising? I actually prefer using an Ah So for most of my corks, I find it easier and less messier, and as Polymer said, I would be less inclined to use the Ah So for corks that have slipped down in case I push it into the wine.
Last night had a 2008 Domaine Drouhin-Laroze Grand Cru Chapelle-Chambertin which was prem-oxed. There were a few murmurs amongst my friends who collect high-end Burg that the issue of prem-oxed red burgundy is sitting in the shadow of the unresolved disaster that besets white burgundy.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
Jamie, IMO you are describing many 00's red wines in OZ. Picking riper and loosing the lightness of wines, bringing in a darker Berry profile giving flabbiness and heat and loosing acid line and loosing complexity of fruit. Maybe this is your dull? Then loosing the harsher tannins that use to need time to age and meld. More use, or misuse, of new oak and/or combined with new technologies to round out the wine and using the barrel tannins and forgetting about grape tannin. Bringing in a softer, drink early style (which may or may not age well) to appease the points followers and 95% of the drinking population who think 10 years is ancient for a wine and want their Grange, high end wine drinking at 100 points from release. Have to stop the rant now as it's off topic and I could go on forever. Maybe this change stylistically has coincided with the use of screwcap (I think it has) and that's why you are picking it up more frequently? I could totally agree with the SC structure thing (to a point anyway as I don't think it's the only cause as outlined above) but I definitely agree with the primary fruit thing. Softening tannins out of balance with fruit development could well be happening, but saying SC is having an effect on fruit profile not knowing what changes have gone on in the winemaking and what new technologies they have incorporated into the process doesn't seem right.
It sort went without saying, warmer vintages and wine making, and again my posts lack wider explanation, but the examples thus far are premium wines. The simplicity of these wines will smash their respective labels if my musings correct. The experience delivered is not a premium and will put Australi right where its competitors will want it.
I'm enjoying my renaissance with Aussie wine and I've had two stunners in 2 days- By Farr shiraz 08 and a Veritas Shiraz Mourvedre Pressings 1998 which were world class ( in the company of foreign drinkers ). Both under cork.
Long story, I was supposed to be in Tuscany now, but I'll find myself trekking in SEA somewhere tomorrow and I was going to pull the cork on a 1990 Monprivato. But I'm intrigued at learning more about screw cap evolution and will twist the cap on a mature Aussie tonight!
Will report further.
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
2005 pinot from Ngeringa in the Adelaide Hills last night. Under screwcap and beautiful development - fruit beyond the primary stage, good integration with tannins, no hard, added acid marring it. Good example for me of quality Australian red maturing under screwcap.
Any time I hear 'hard' referred to in the description of how an Australian screwcapped red has aged (or failed to age), I default to holding the tartaric acid bag responsible.
JamieBahrain wrote:Opened a cork and screw capped Aussie. Both professionally cellared.
Shiraz by Farr 2008- Geez. It was the tightest cork I've ever tried to pull. Unbelievable. Did it's job thankfully. This is wonderful wine. I drink Northern Rhone most weeks and what I loved about this wine was its technical correctness and a purity. The comparisons to the Northern Rhone are easy to draw, but this so eclipses many. Wonderful wine.
94pts
Paringa Estate Shiraz 2005 ( screwcap )- Simple, down the line, pungent berry fruit with a a touch of earthiness. The palate delivers the aromatics and lacks a little energy- completes with what I deem as the problem with some screw capped wines, where the tannin evolution seems to be out of kilter with fruit development delivering an overall dullness.
88pts
Not sure if the Paringa is a result of the screwcap or the winemaking style. I used to buy Red Hill Estate Pinot and it was a lovely powerful item, built to withstand the ravages of time and tide. And then, sometime after 1996, it became this insipid reddish cordial, which wouldn't outlast the trip home. While still under cork, both of them. Not sure if the Paringa Shiraz is in the same boat. But we had an older Paringa Pinot (not current vintage) at the winery that was doing quite nicely. Some complexity was there and the tannins were very mild. Sort of a yes, please! Unfortunately there was a lot of walking and drinking still to do and I forgot to write it down. Will hav to go in for a bite to eat at somestage and chase it up.
Jonathan
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
I think this thread is a good excuse for a very analytical offline Theme obviously to compare the development under either seal, but same wines of same vintages that were bottled under both types. Considering the changeover for many wineries in Oz occurred between 2000 - 2005, many of the wines will have had a reasonable amount of age. There are quite a few wineries that bottled under both in that changeover period. The 2003 Petaluma Hanlin Hill Riesling we had at dumplings last Friday for instance. There would need to be an extended timespan from initiation to event because it would take quite a bit of work to source. And quite a bit of coordination as some people might have one type of wine under one type of seal, but someone else might have the other. Who's keen???
pstarr wrote:Any time I hear 'hard' referred to in the description of how an Australian screwcapped red has aged (or failed to age), I default to holding the tartaric acid bag responsible.
This.
But acid adjustment is often a result of high pH due to longer fruit hang time.
cheers
Carl
Bartenders are supposed to have people skills. Or was it people are supposed to have bartending skills?
Next time you are over we'll do an experiment. I have a Barossa Cab from 2004 under both SC and Cork. It will be an interesting exercise. It's not a top end wine, but one I have enjoyed in the past.
Cheers Ian
If you had to choose between drinking great wine or winning Lotto, which would you choose - Red or White?
2006 Henschke Mount Edelstone 14% Screwcap Bought on release and drunk over 5hrs tonight. I thought this would be a good wine seeing no one can dispute the aging ability and quality of this vineyards fruit. Dark blood plum, mulberry, bitumen and crushed rock. Leafy and herbal tea like. The fruit is slightly stewed and choked by shortbread oak but this does mellow with time in the Zalto. The palate shows very youthful. Bright juicey blood plum, black mulberries and some dark cherry glaze fruit with powdered coca. The entry is good, fruit sits up front but the mid palate lacks a little depth and doesn't really go anywhere but fruit reappears intermittently back end along with spices pepper and bitumen. It finishes a little muddled fruit wise, acid is high and only back end to finish and it's lacking line and separates but ok. Tannins are lacking for me but nothing away from normal Eden Shiraz and length is pretty decent except for the heat back end that distracts from overall enjoyment. Fruit is primary but not dull, it lacks savouriness of 90's Mt Ed but we all know why that is. Overall a good wine that needs 10 years to develop to where I would want it but lack of savoury profile and intensity may hinder it becoming great. I do have 04 and 05 as well, which would probably have been better vintages to test, but I didn't want to open these because they are birth year wines.
Merricks Pinot 2007 was aided by screw cap. Not terribly excited by Aussie Pinot but this had a nice blend of primary fruit and secondary fruit . Tannins resolved, acidity good. Very good!
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
Bobthebuilder wrote:I think this thread is a good excuse for a very analytical offline Theme obviously to compare the development under either seal, but same wines of same vintages that were bottled under both types. Considering the changeover for many wineries in Oz occurred between 2000 - 2005, many of the wines will have had a reasonable amount of age. There are quite a few wineries that bottled under both in that changeover period. The 2003 Petaluma Hanlin Hill Riesling we had at dumplings last Friday for instance. There would need to be an extended timespan from initiation to event because it would take quite a bit of work to source. And quite a bit of coordination as some people might have one type of wine under one type of seal, but someone else might have the other. Who's keen???
I wanted to attempt this with a pair of 2004 Hanlin Hills at an offline a few years ago. Unfortunately, the cork bottle was TCA'd and the SC version was zingy and youthful. Didn't even take the tainted one along - which was a bit of a disappointment.
Jonathan
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
For me there's so many variables going on before the juice is even in the bottle that could be mistakenly blamed on the closure. As for comparing SC and cork of the same wine/same vintage, I would've thought you would need at least 2 of each so there is an element of scientific control. Also the sourcing/storage of the 'testing' bottles would have to be as close to perfect as possible, otherwise there's more questionable unknown variables muddying the waters.
I was under the semi belief that the air between the wine itself and the closure was all that was needed for a wine to age. This would negate the entire debate essentially and I'm probably way off the mark, but I'd be interested to know if there was actually any truth to this.
I go back to asking why Pennies 707 is under 2 separate closures. If the wine is an aging icon with specific intended flavour profiles how can it be sold with different seals. If the same wine is going to head off in two distinct directions how is it the same wine? If the closure is having that much of an impact than should the back label highlight what the different seal will bring/not bring to the table in 25 years. What about a restaurant wine list? Can customers have the choice of seal? In which case the wine list would read; '2012 707SC/2012 707C'. If the cork version is perceived as being more complex and desirable it is priced accordingly?
Excuse my cynicism and naivety but it seems the more I read on the SC v C debate the less I understand.
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.
Scotty vino wrote:Excuse my cynicism and naivety but it seems the more I read on the SC v C debate the less I understand.
Me also. But only because I haven't had any of the flavour profiles mentioned by others in this (and other threads) - and almost all my wine is SC. And I have had an abnormally high percentage of TCA (except in fortified wines and other distilled spirits). And, to be honest, I like the extended window an SC gives to short-lived whites. We get a SC Hunter cleanskin which is 10 years old (and would be vinegar under cork) which is drinking beautifully at the moment
Jonathan
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
My Aussie wine cellar is dominated by Wrndoure, Rockford and Henschke . My concerns are that talking to Tony Brady his hands were tied with a winery analysed failure rate of near 10% and screw cap transition proceeded without analysis. Rockford dismiss screw cap though as a regular drinker of BP, variation a big issue in the 90's. Henscke flat out stated screw cap not ideal for its reds and I can see minor issues .
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
