Likely heat damage to wine in cellar? (Adelaide heatwave)

[JamieBahrain]

Great. So moving forward "non-ideal" needs to be defined.


Had a badly stored Kilikanoon Barossa Reserve Shiraz 2006 last night. Cork seepage and baked/stewed fruit notes the clue. A shame it seemed a class act in parts.

I don't know why Aussies got so wound up over cork taint and went down the road of screw-cap which is just going to camouflage the deceit over poor transport and storage. The percentage of premium wine in a maturation window and heat scalped is a lot more than the 5% tainted.

[Ozzie W]

I think there's some confirmation bias at play here. Those who have passive cellars with some temperature variation think it's fine. Likewise, those who have temperature controlled cellars think that's the way to go. I've erred on the side of caution, so I'm in the latter category.

One thing is for certain. No matter which way you go for long term storage, the conditions that the wine was subjected to during transportation from the winery to distributor to retailer or whatnot can detrimentally affect the wine before you get hold of it.

[JamieBahrain]

Ozzie

I'm not sure if it's confirmation bias. With the low $AUD I'm buying a lot of aussie wine again from the secondary market; replacing wines I know and preserving those I've stored properly for a later date- as they have much longer windows than expected and the slide from a maturation peak toward a tertiary spectrum is slow and intriguing in itself.

Treat yourself to a comparison.

[swirler]

I think there's some confirmation bias at play here. Those who have passive cellars with some temperature variation think it's fine..

As I said before, people use emotion to make decisions and then find 'evidence' to confirm it.

One thing is for certain. No matter which way you go for long term storage, the conditions that the wine was subjected to during transportation from the winery to distributor to retailer or whatnot can detrimentally affect the wine before you get hold of it.

Absolutely, that day the cellar hits 25'c for a few hours and you start getting nervous is nothing compared to the 6 months in Vinpac at a constant 25'c. Doesn't matter how 'perfect' your cellaring is thereafter. But it's natural to focus on that which you can control and try to not think about that which you can't. That's why people have professional cellaring. Caveat Emptor.

[swirler]

Ozzie

I'm not sure if it's confirmation bias. With the low $AUD I'm buying a lot of aussie wine again from the secondary market; replacing wines I know and preserving those I've stored properly for a later date- as they have much longer windows than expected and the slide from a maturation peak toward a tertiary spectrum is slow and intriguing in itself.

Treat yourself to a comparison.

Wow! That's a big jump, from 12'c storage to unknown provenance! Good luck with that!

[JamieBahrain]

I know a lot about confirmation bias from my day job and I just don't see any evidence here. I felt I was leaning toward emperical evidence which would be more appropriate in this scenario.

Reference your comments on a secondary market purchases I only go through Mark's auction site. I really appreciate what he tries to do with provenance. So I'm able to compare passive cellaring versus controlled and often I try pot luck with no provenance. Recently, I've been caught in very high bidding wars over wines that have been professionally cellared in a controlled manner- and so they should go for a premium and I hope the market picks up on this more.

Here's a good one. Just pulled the cork on a 20 year old Barossa shiraz. Now Rockfords bottling line has always had a few issues ( the few milimeteres of uniform seepage I don't see as much with other labels ) but here's a wine I picked up from cellar door on release and I'm drinking it 18 years later. Utter magic and I've tried a few very old BP's from the personal family cellar at Stonewallers and they are not anywhere near the condition of this. Nor is their museum stock.

I know this wine well I bought many dozens of them. This bottle has just been decanted and there's still a youthful freshness and vibrancy with recognizable nuances of it's youth which I haven't noted in the passive cellars from Rockfords. At it's peak though I still have a dozen I'll watch as they gracefully slide down the back of the maturation curve.





Near zero ullage!

[JamieBahrain]

Ozzie

I'm not sure if it's confirmation bias. With the low $AUD I'm buying a lot of aussie wine again from the secondary market; replacing wines I know and preserving those I've stored properly for a later date- as they have much longer windows than expected and the slide from a maturation peak toward a tertiary spectrum is slow and intriguing in itself.

Treat yourself to a comparison.

Wow! That's a big jump, from 12'c storage to unknown provenance! Good luck with that!

Sorry not sure where you got 12 degrees from ? I'd prefer 12 degrees with Aussie wines to preserve them though they are stored at 15 degrees.

Transport is 15 degrees from Europe too on the ship with monitoring available online and the a/c trucks same. Not sure of London bonded stock though I move them out after a year or two to trickle them back to Oz. I don't airfreight and there's potentially significant variation here.

How do you store you wines Swirler?

[phillisc]

Not sure where you are getting dozens of bottles of 1996 on release, unless there were no quotas back then or you visited the winery quite a few times or plenty are buying on your behalf.
Expect that many will try to do this with the 2012s

Cheers
Craig.

Ps. for what its worth I 'found' a 1990 707 wrapped up in newspaper in a old trunk from one of the kids bedrooms. I have just painted a couple of rooms at home and we were having a sort out of kids games, Thomas the Tank Engine books and there it was. Anyway we opened it, cork very sound, drank it, it was perfect. The bottle survived 20 Adelaide winters and summers with ease.
I have a few left that have been stored at 13-15 degrees in a professional cellar, but doubt very much that they will be any better than this one, and regardless of known provenance, there is always one question with any wine, on any day with any bottle...how will it be? That's of course before all of us punters here assess it differently.

My 2c and Happy Christmas to all.

[swirler]

there is always one question with any wine, on any day with any bottle...how will it be?

Schrodinger's cat!

BTW Your 707 story cannot be true. Impossible, I tells ya!

[brodie]

I would be concerned with temps over 20-22 deg for more than a few weeks, but this comment is mainly for wines that I intended for long term cellaring. If I had wine, I wanted to keep for 20+ years I would buy a wine cabinet for those bottles.

I basically a foot in both camps. I believe wine is pretty robust and have had wines that have survived poor storage and drank really well. But, personally I store all of my wine in temp controlled storage at 13 deg.

I decided on temp controlled cellaring more than 15 years ago based on a number of factors;

1. I have plenty of wines I want to cellar for 30+ years
2. I have a lot of pricey French and Italian wines. Easy cost vs risk decision when the wines are $$ hundreds each
3. I have Rhone valley wines which can be prone to Brett and this is VERY temp sensitive
4. I have a collection of birth years wines for my two boys I want keep for decades
5. When I have had temp controlled vs passive cellared wines side by side, I always prefer the temp controlled ones
6. It is one less risk factor overall on the process, and one I can control

So to me the decision pretty much boils down to; your climate, the type of wines you collect an how long you want to cellar them

Brodie

[Scotty vino]

For me there's not enough hard evidence to suggest what the 'holy grail' temp for wine storage actually is.
On average I'd say 13 degrees 'seems' to be the golden number but I've seen that contradicted too many times.
If it was the case I would've insulated my underground cellar and installed a cooler.
Still might, but i was down there the other night and it was 19 degrees and the concrete floor was cold on my feet.
I'd say the liquid temp of the vino might even be cooler.

When we can work out whether wine is a robust beast with iron like constitution or a delicate flower
in need of water every 2 mins, I'll make a line in the sand judgement.
'Til then I think I'll run with what I've got.

[crusty2]

The other thing to consider when talking temperature in your cellar is where do you situate your measuring device.
I have a wet bulb thermometer in the warmest place in the cellar (this having been found over a long period of testing)

I store all "keepers" and white wines low on the shelves and any fortifieds high in the racks. Pinots lower and more robust reds high.

The best would be to have several temp probes inside several bottles stored in a number locations to create a temperature map of your cellar using the thermal mass of your collection to get a good idea of your optimum storage position for each type of wine

cheers

[JamieBahrain]

Not sure where you are getting dozens of bottles of 1996 on release, unless there were no quotas back then or you visited the winery quite a few times or plenty are buying on your behalf.
Expect that many will try to do this with the 2012s

Cheers
Craig.

Ps. for what its worth I 'found' a 1990 707 wrapped up in newspaper in a old trunk from one of the kids bedrooms. I have just painted a couple of rooms at home and we were having a sort out of kids games, Thomas the Tank Engine books and there it was. Anyway we opened it, cork very sound, drank it, it was perfect. The bottle survived 20 Adelaide winters and summers with ease.
I have a few left that have been stored at 13-15 degrees in a professional cellar, but doubt very much that they will be any better than this one, and regardless of known provenance, there is always one question with any wine, on any day with any bottle...how will it be? That's of course before all of us punters here assess it differently.

My 2c and Happy Christmas to all.

You've only told half the story Phil. How were the other wines 707's in comparison? Cork was sound ? Any seepage or ullage ?

I spent a lot of time in the Barossa and I recall the 96 BP was a $20 wine and it as freely available over a month or two at CD.

[swirler]

Thanks guys for joining in, it was getting a bit boring with just Jamie and me in the conversation.

How do you store you wines Swirler?

In a tin shed up here in Darwin

[phillisc]

there is always one question with any wine, on any day with any bottle...how will it be?

Schrodinger's cat!

BTW Your 707 story cannot be true. Impossible, I tells ya!

You can think what you like Swirler...just like when I was growing up in a large stone house in the Adelaide foot hills and we drank 1960s and 70s Hardy's St Thomas burgundies, Southern Vales Coop reds, and Chateau Reynella and Yaldara Clarets in flagon format , all modestly stored in a linen press for decades and all were magnificent.

Cheers
Craig

[phillisc]

Not sure where you are getting dozens of bottles of 1996 on release, unless there were no quotas back then or you visited the winery quite a few times or plenty are buying on your behalf.
Expect that many will try to do this with the 2012s

Cheers
Craig.

Ps. for what its worth I 'found' a 1990 707 wrapped up in newspaper in a old trunk from one of the kids bedrooms. I have just painted a couple of rooms at home and we were having a sort out of kids games, Thomas the Tank Engine books and there it was. Anyway we opened it, cork very sound, drank it, it was perfect. The bottle survived 20 Adelaide winters and summers with ease.
I have a few left that have been stored at 13-15 degrees in a professional cellar, but doubt very much that they will be any better than this one, and regardless of known provenance, there is always one question with any wine, on any day with any bottle...how will it be? That's of course before all of us punters here assess it differently.

My 2c and Happy Christmas to all.

You've only told half the story Phil. How were the other wines 707's in comparison? Cork was sound ? Any seepage or ullage ?

Jamie, the bottle IMHO was excellent, cork stain about the same as your 96 BP ( interestingly had a 91 BP on the weekend and the ullage was nil with cork stain on the base of the cork only).
I have checked the 4 other bottles that I have have, stored at 13-15 degrees for over 20 years and the levels appear to be no different.

As someone once said, no great old wines only great old bottles...probably if truth be known just got lucky.

Cheers
Craig.

I spent a lot of time in the Barossa and I recall the 96 BP was a $20 wine and it as freely available over a month or two at CD.

Sorry, quoted myself somehow here...anyway it was a good bottle, particularly with the Edinburgh Cellars price sticker of $25...if only, and bet it does not cost anymore than that to make now.
Cheers
Craig.

[JamieBahrain]

A real treat is primary fruit in 50 year old wine. I've been treated to many old Gaja bottles direct from the cellar ( due importer access ) and they are stand out examples when compared to other old Piedmont wines. Gaja does have cool cellars - one release labelled "infernot" and again, though a younger, 70's releases, these wines ( subject to cork ) are blessed with a primary freshness within beautiful development and maturity.

To a lesser extent, I'm seeing a similar freshness in older Aussie wines I've stored under controlled conditions. And they are just beginning to show better than than the same labels, bought at the same time from cellar door, from a friends passive cellar ( Mt Macedon ) at the 15 year mark- and that's Craiglee which has been used as an example of longevity. Certainly, in Craiglee's example, my wines, I feel, show better than Pat Carmodys though many would argue that's because Pat serves his museum gear at fridge like temperatures ! But certainly, I've found my bottle's delicateness preserved at the 20 year mark whereas the museum releases lacked a nuanced complexity.

[swirler]

You can think what you like Swirler...just like when I was growing up in a large stone house in the Adelaide foot hills and we drank 1960s and 70s Hardy's St Thomas burgundies, Southern Vales Coop reds, and Chateau Reynella and Yaldara Clarets in flagon format , all modestly stored in a linen press for decades and all were magnificent.

Cheers
Craig

Sorry, I do believe you. Why wouldn't I? I was just having a bit of fun. Hence the comedy tone.

[Chuck]

A lot going on here. Best comparison I've seen of perfect vs passive cellaring was a few years ago at an Adelaide offline. By coincidence a guest and I brought the exact same (approx) 12YO wine both bought on release. Coonawarra cab I think. So apart from any cork issues you'd think they would be the same. Mine from an underground passive cellar was very nice with many years ahead of it. The perfectly cellared bottle was just a slight bit better and fresher, again with many years ahead. So while there was a difference both were good wines just one slightly better. Say 9.0 vs 9.3 out of 10 if you want a rough numerical comparison.

More importantly other bottles of the same wine from my passive cellar over the past 5 years or so were of similar quality with more (naturally) development except for one or 2 that were not treated well by the cork gods.

Not a truly scientific approach but my passive cellar of 26 years has always delivered the goods bar uncontrollable cork and other issues . Having said all that I still would like the perfect cellar but lack the funding.

Carl

[Chuck]

Having (among many excellent wines) a 1998 Penfolds St Henri tonight with friends with a grade 9 (equal to Japanese grade 12 - it does not get any better apparently) Wagyu standing rib roast of about 1.5kg from Victor Churchill in Sydney. The wine has been in my passive cellar since release so should be a good guide to it's performance. Level is good. Just hope the cork gods have been kind. I'll report back soon.

Chuck

[Chuck]

Having (among many excellent wines) a 1998 Penfolds St Henri tonight with friends with a grade 9 (equal to Japanese grade 12 - it does not get any better apparently) Wagyu standing rib roast of about 1.5kg from Victor Churchill in Sydney. The wine has been in my passive cellar since release so should be a good guide to it's performance. Level is good. Just hope the cork gods have been kind. I'll report back soon.

Chuck

Update. St Henri was in perfect nick. Passive cellar now at 21C which is its usual summer peak and will decline gradually to winter temp of around 15C. Key I think is no intra day temp variation.

Wagyu was stunning as was the rest of the meal, wines excellent and great company. Having a chef on board to cook the Wagyu was key as the cooking method was most unusual. Cut was 2 bone standing rib roast of about 1.5kg. In a warm oven (about 150C) for about an hour then cut into 2 large pieces and sealed in very hot pan. Rested for about 10 minutes. Came out about medium rare. Like cutting through butter. Tick that off the list.Of equal interest was another cut of beef I have never heard of - Hanger. Apparently off the skirt section of the beast. Cooked rare its intense flavour was only slightly behind the Wagyu. At $25 per kg it's now my preferred cut.

[Diddy]

Recently bought a few bottles of expense Euro wines (>$100 per bottle). Despite asking the retailer not to ship until cooler weather (and the retailer happily agreeing) they decided to unilaterally ship it to me during a week in which Melbourne had 40+ weather.

[TiggerK]

Recently bought a few bottles of expense Euro wines (>$100 per bottle). Despite asking the retailer not to ship until cooler weather (and the retailer happily agreeing) they decided to unilaterally ship it to me during a week in which Melbourne had 40+ weather.

Not sure how far away you are Diddy, but if it were me, I would take it back in person and get them to swap the bottles on the spot (and make a subtle mark on the label to ensure they did - cynical yeah, but it happens). Just not good enough (even more so with higher end wine) if you've both agreed to not ship in the heat. If it sat in a courier van for a few hours at 40C+, I would be worried about it's condition.

P.S Chuck, Wagyu Grade 9 standing rib from VC! That's one seriously exxy steak, pleased it was cooked so well. Any other wines you had worth mentioning??

[Chuck]

Recently bought a few bottles of expense Euro wines (>$100 per bottle). Despite asking the retailer not to ship until cooler weather (and the retailer happily agreeing) they decided to unilaterally ship it to me during a week in which Melbourne had 40+ weather.

Not sure how far away you are Diddy, but if it were me, I would take it back in person and get them to swap the bottles on the spot (and make a subtle mark on the label to ensure they did - cynical yeah, but it happens). Just not good enough (even more so with higher end wine) if you've both agreed to not ship in the heat. If it sat in a courier van for a few hours at 40C+, I would be worried about it's condition.

P.S Chuck, Wagyu Grade 9 standing rib from VC! That's one seriously exxy steak, pleased it was cooked so well. Any other wines you had worth mentioning??

Certainly was exxy. $250/kg but worth every cent. Strongly recommend trying the hanger beef at $25/kg if you can find it. Only one on each beast (0.75KG) and looks like a turd hence why not common. Cook rare. Other wines were Kay Brothers Amery 2006 Hillside Shiraz; Balthazar 2010 Marananga BV Shiraz; 2005 Olsen 6; Punters Corner 2005 Cabernet; Moet NV; Grant Burge NV bubbles; Ninth Island NV bubbles; Talisker 18 year old SMW. Glad I didn't have to go to work the next day.

Carl

[sjw_11]

Strongly recommend trying the hanger beef at $25/kg if you can find it. Only one on each beast (0.75KG) and looks like a turd hence why not common. Cook rare.

Carl

Thanks for the prompt Chuck, I just ordered one for the weekend. I only cooked it for the first time myself a few months ago, really love the depth of flavor and relatively cheap price.

As an aside, if anyone is London based, I recommend checking out Natoora online. The meat comes from Ginger Pig, the cheese from Neals Yard Dairy, etc etc and they will deliver on a Saturday morning.

[Chuck]

Strongly recommend trying the hanger beef at $25/kg if you can find it. Only one on each beast (0.75KG) and looks like a turd hence why not common. Cook rare.

Carl

Thanks for the prompt Chuck, I just ordered one for the weekend. I only cooked it for the first time myself a few months ago, really love the depth of flavor and relatively cheap price.

As an aside, if anyone is London based, I recommend checking out Natoora online. The meat comes from Ginger Pig, the cheese from Neals Yard Dairy, etc etc and they will deliver on a Saturday morning.

Hi Sam. Let us know your impressions of the hanger. IMO a good OZ shiraz would be good with it. Served a little bit chilled would be good given the heat in SA but if you are in the UK this would not be an issue