Another question popped into my head and I figured I'd ask the masses...
There's always talk about Grange being too expensive, ripping off domestic markets, no value blah blah blah, but I wonder how much people would be willing to pay for Grange from both retail and auction, and from different vintages?
How much would you pay for a bottle of 1986? Or 2004? What if someone offered a bottle of 2000 for a very low amount?
I'm curious to see, given how many fantastic wines are out there for a fraction of the price, what the actual price of Grange is in the head of a forumite here?
How much for Grange?
Re: How much for Grange?
I dont buy Grange. I actually find I get the odd bottle (have 3 in the cellar) from gifts or other occasions.
I'll rejig the question to "at what price would you consider buying Grange"?
For me, I would buy the odd bottle if it were around $200/bttle.
Others in the marketplace are clearly willing to buy at $600-650 (retail) or $300-500 (auction). But I personally have zero interest at those prices.
The $200/bttle may seem silly, but I see a lot of great wine in the $40-$100 brackets that I would rather have several bottles of. But at $200 I would probably consider 2 or so a year?
I'll rejig the question to "at what price would you consider buying Grange"?
For me, I would buy the odd bottle if it were around $200/bttle.
Others in the marketplace are clearly willing to buy at $600-650 (retail) or $300-500 (auction). But I personally have zero interest at those prices.
The $200/bttle may seem silly, but I see a lot of great wine in the $40-$100 brackets that I would rather have several bottles of. But at $200 I would probably consider 2 or so a year?
Re: How much for Grange?
Grange is a very good wine. It's an icon of our country, in fact. I don't personally have any beef with the fact that it's multi-regional either, I think that was a daring idea that redefined Australian and new world viticulture. It's a consistently good wine with a long track record of ageing (Though as a young wine, it's monstrously tannic and difficult). The story behind it's initial production gives it some romance and intrigue.
All that said, yes, it's horrendously overpriced. The romantic history of Grange has to be weighed up with the present situation of a bloated, out-of-touch corporation blatantly ignoring supply and demand and just inflating prices for the heck of it. Peter Gago has stated that they produce 7000-9000 cases per vintage (since 2013). That's about 42,000 - 54,000 (750ml) bottles, or 31,500 - 40,500 Litres. For reference, from 2003-2007, Romanée Conti (A wine with massive international demand that drives up the prices stratospherically) produced an average annual of 4200L, or 5,600 (750ml) bottles. And that's quite big by Burgundy's standards.
An interesting flip-side to the wine's consistency - as it's a multi-regional blend, the Penfold's team have access to many vineyards across South Australia, and are able to work around vintage variation by blending selectively. Isn't that a good thing though? Well, yeah, but it kind of dilutes the idea of wine as an agricultural product in my eyes. It's a step away from growing the grapes in greenhouses. And this will be evident in this year's 2011 release, which was mostly a difficult year in SA (Some places more than others). I'm interested to see how they advertise and price such a maligned vintage.
Yes, it's a good wine, but for Grange's current release price of $785, I could buy 2 back vintage, ready to drink bottles of an Iconic, great vintage, single-vineyard Hermitage that actually have something to say about the place and time the grapes were grown. Heck, I'd have change left over from buying a 750ml '96 Ch. D'yquem. Like I said, Grange is a perfectly good wine, but nowhere near that good.
So, to pull a figure out of my arse, based only on wines at similar prices, I would pay no more than $200 for a new vintage Grange. Perhaps more for a back-vintage. Auction prices are a useful indication of value, to an extent. And they're higher than my figure - $300-$500 depending on vintage... Meanwhile the 2010 is $785? Something's not right there, and I submit that as evidence to back up my above claim about Treasury.
I predict we'll see next year's 2012 release at just under $1000. From an international perspective, based on what imported wines are around that price (and taking into account the horrendous taxes we pay on imported wine), that's just laughable.
All that said, yes, it's horrendously overpriced. The romantic history of Grange has to be weighed up with the present situation of a bloated, out-of-touch corporation blatantly ignoring supply and demand and just inflating prices for the heck of it. Peter Gago has stated that they produce 7000-9000 cases per vintage (since 2013). That's about 42,000 - 54,000 (750ml) bottles, or 31,500 - 40,500 Litres. For reference, from 2003-2007, Romanée Conti (A wine with massive international demand that drives up the prices stratospherically) produced an average annual of 4200L, or 5,600 (750ml) bottles. And that's quite big by Burgundy's standards.
An interesting flip-side to the wine's consistency - as it's a multi-regional blend, the Penfold's team have access to many vineyards across South Australia, and are able to work around vintage variation by blending selectively. Isn't that a good thing though? Well, yeah, but it kind of dilutes the idea of wine as an agricultural product in my eyes. It's a step away from growing the grapes in greenhouses. And this will be evident in this year's 2011 release, which was mostly a difficult year in SA (Some places more than others). I'm interested to see how they advertise and price such a maligned vintage.
Yes, it's a good wine, but for Grange's current release price of $785, I could buy 2 back vintage, ready to drink bottles of an Iconic, great vintage, single-vineyard Hermitage that actually have something to say about the place and time the grapes were grown. Heck, I'd have change left over from buying a 750ml '96 Ch. D'yquem. Like I said, Grange is a perfectly good wine, but nowhere near that good.
So, to pull a figure out of my arse, based only on wines at similar prices, I would pay no more than $200 for a new vintage Grange. Perhaps more for a back-vintage. Auction prices are a useful indication of value, to an extent. And they're higher than my figure - $300-$500 depending on vintage... Meanwhile the 2010 is $785? Something's not right there, and I submit that as evidence to back up my above claim about Treasury.
I predict we'll see next year's 2012 release at just under $1000. From an international perspective, based on what imported wines are around that price (and taking into account the horrendous taxes we pay on imported wine), that's just laughable.
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Scotty vino
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Re: How much for Grange?
I'd say my limit on most, if not all wines is $100.00.
Regardless of income once $100.00 has been crossed you really have to ask yourself the question. (reasonable retail of course)
In regards to Grange or HOG I'd probably be willing to extend myself an extra $50 due the history and 'Icon' status.
Regardless of income once $100.00 has been crossed you really have to ask yourself the question. (reasonable retail of course)
In regards to Grange or HOG I'd probably be willing to extend myself an extra $50 due the history and 'Icon' status.
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.
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George Krashos
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:26 pm
Re: How much for Grange?
That $200.00 figure is around the mark, I reckon. I bought my first bottle of Grange at $80 (1987 vintage). At the same time, I also bought 1990 Rockford BP at about $20. BP is now $60-ish so in comparative terms and for my headspace, I could live with paying four times more for Grange; the $200-250 range. A price of $700.00+ is laughable.
Re: How much for Grange?
Looking at Aussie reds from all over the country, there's a price point at which the quality gained is less than the money invested. For my palate, this is around $100. I don't have any wines in my cellar over $150/bottle... it's a psychological barrier for me. So I guess I'd pay $150 for a Grange if the opportunity arose.
For my Barossa Shiraz cravings, I'd much rather fill my cellar up with the likes of Standish, Sami-Odi, Head and others. More so when I can have a mixed case of the lot for around the price of a single bottle of Grange.
For my Barossa Shiraz cravings, I'd much rather fill my cellar up with the likes of Standish, Sami-Odi, Head and others. More so when I can have a mixed case of the lot for around the price of a single bottle of Grange.
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trufflequeen
- Posts: 169
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- Location: Adelaide
Re: How much for Grange?
I've never bought any Grange. I would much rather purchase over a dozen Wendourees at the same price point, and can't imagine I'd get much more joy or excitement from opening a Grange than a significantly cheaper but cherished bottle I've carefully cellared for awhile (also, I expect most of the people I share my wine with would be somewhat horrified at me doing so!)
The average price paid for the wines in my cellar is $58, and most of my wines are sub $80. Over the $80 mark tends to be made up of wines like RWT and Mt Ed bought on special, as well as back vintages of Torbreck Les Amis, which can be had for sub $100 at auction.
The average price paid for the wines in my cellar is $58, and most of my wines are sub $80. Over the $80 mark tends to be made up of wines like RWT and Mt Ed bought on special, as well as back vintages of Torbreck Les Amis, which can be had for sub $100 at auction.
Re: How much for Grange?
It is the old story, this debate has been around since the 1990 was about $130ish
And for that, of the same vintage, 6-8 bottles of BP or Mt Ed, a case of Bin 28.
The only Grange that I can afford to drink now is the bottle that I did not buy.
Now apart from some silly prices from a winery with a $800 bottle and a couple of players with swanky eateries...there would be 100 Barossa Shirazes alone where 6-12+ bottles could be purchased for the $785 figure.
If you want Grange to be at $200, where it should be, and yes its 85% water...you would need to have HoG at the same, 707 at 1/3 it is now, its never going to happen.
I just think of the absolute mind boggling amount of money that I have spent with some recent purchases...that 36 bottles of what I would call premium wine comes in at 2.5 bottles of Grange
.
Cheers
Craig.
And for that, of the same vintage, 6-8 bottles of BP or Mt Ed, a case of Bin 28.
The only Grange that I can afford to drink now is the bottle that I did not buy.
Now apart from some silly prices from a winery with a $800 bottle and a couple of players with swanky eateries...there would be 100 Barossa Shirazes alone where 6-12+ bottles could be purchased for the $785 figure.
If you want Grange to be at $200, where it should be, and yes its 85% water...you would need to have HoG at the same, 707 at 1/3 it is now, its never going to happen.
I just think of the absolute mind boggling amount of money that I have spent with some recent purchases...that 36 bottles of what I would call premium wine comes in at 2.5 bottles of Grange
.Cheers
Craig.
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: How much for Grange?
I don't buy Grange because I don't really like the style. I have perhaps 4-5 bottles in the cellar which were "acquired". Mind you, I have had a few '71 Granges in the past which I have been quite partial to, I think they were $35/b at the time when I bought them in the mid/late-80's, sadly now all gone. I do buy some of the Penfolds Special Bin wines, because I like them far more than Grange. This includes Bin90A which is about $300 at auction, a couple more bottles of 96 Block42 at (unfortunately) >$400/b and maybe some "04 Bin 60A, still available for ~$400 at auction. These are special wines that are far more interesting to me than Grange and I am almost happy to pay these prices. Of course, we all want a bargain, but market forces will work against this. For example, I predict that 96 Block42 will be >$600/b in a few years. Might be a stretch at that price.
As Craig intimated, there are lots of very good high end wines that you can get for a fraction of the price of Grange, that are just as enjoyable.
All that from someone who works for a company that is now owned by the Chinese!
As Craig intimated, there are lots of very good high end wines that you can get for a fraction of the price of Grange, that are just as enjoyable.
All that from someone who works for a company that is now owned by the Chinese!
veni, vidi, bibi
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ticklenow1
- Posts: 1106
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Re: How much for Grange?
At the end of the day, Penfold's are selling the stuff for their inflated RRP's and it's moving off the shelves. People are parting with their hard earned. So while that is happening, Penfold's will keep moving the RRP north. When it doesn't sell, then perhaps the price will stabilise. I would assume a large proportion of production would be exported as well.
I only have 1 bottle in my cellar and it's a 2002 that I paid $350 for. I only bought it as received a big tax return that year and thought I'd really like one bottle in my cellar. I rarely, if ever, buy Penfold's at all anymore as I think there is better value elsewhere and I'd rather give my money to a producer who is passionate about their wine. They are not bad wines, in fact they are quite good, but they are made to a formula and to me don't really change that much from vintage to vintage. I've rarely had a Penfold's wine that I was excited about. I've had plenty that were good, but few were great. I've been lucky enough to have the 1996 Grange a few times now and it is an exceptional wine, but I've also had a John Louis Chave Hermitage that I would rather drink every day of the week and it's a similar price (in Australia) to Grange, maybe even cheaper.
I guess this is why people have so much respect for the likes of Wendouree, Rockford, Noon etc. The prices are quite stable and haven't gone silly. I'm sure that the Brady's, Robert O'Callaghan and Drew Noon could double their prices next vintage and still sell out no worries at all. But they choose not to and have a stable customer base that sells their wine out every year and keeps coming back for more. I would assume there are many wineries in just the same position. I remember a few years back Drew Noon put the price of his wines up to $27 from $25 and felt compelled to explain why in the newsletter.
You'll note that these wineries are pretty much family wineries who don't have to answer to shareholders - Penfolds does. It's a business and the sole purpose of said business is a return to shareholders. While this is the case they will charge as much as they can for all their wines. Until people stop buying them, the prices will keep going up. Having said that, If Grange was priced at around $200, I'd probably dip my toes in when a good vintage comes along.
I have a funny habit of every time I try an expensive wine, I think how many bottles of Basket Press could I buy for that. If I drink a $200 bottle of wine I think would I rather have 3 bottles of BP. Normally the answer is yes. I suppose if money is no object then price is irrelevant though isn't it. It's horses for courses. I can't afford to buy a dozen Granges every year, let alone 1 or 2, so I really don't care how they price it anyway.
Cheers
Ian
I only have 1 bottle in my cellar and it's a 2002 that I paid $350 for. I only bought it as received a big tax return that year and thought I'd really like one bottle in my cellar. I rarely, if ever, buy Penfold's at all anymore as I think there is better value elsewhere and I'd rather give my money to a producer who is passionate about their wine. They are not bad wines, in fact they are quite good, but they are made to a formula and to me don't really change that much from vintage to vintage. I've rarely had a Penfold's wine that I was excited about. I've had plenty that were good, but few were great. I've been lucky enough to have the 1996 Grange a few times now and it is an exceptional wine, but I've also had a John Louis Chave Hermitage that I would rather drink every day of the week and it's a similar price (in Australia) to Grange, maybe even cheaper.
I guess this is why people have so much respect for the likes of Wendouree, Rockford, Noon etc. The prices are quite stable and haven't gone silly. I'm sure that the Brady's, Robert O'Callaghan and Drew Noon could double their prices next vintage and still sell out no worries at all. But they choose not to and have a stable customer base that sells their wine out every year and keeps coming back for more. I would assume there are many wineries in just the same position. I remember a few years back Drew Noon put the price of his wines up to $27 from $25 and felt compelled to explain why in the newsletter.
You'll note that these wineries are pretty much family wineries who don't have to answer to shareholders - Penfolds does. It's a business and the sole purpose of said business is a return to shareholders. While this is the case they will charge as much as they can for all their wines. Until people stop buying them, the prices will keep going up. Having said that, If Grange was priced at around $200, I'd probably dip my toes in when a good vintage comes along.
I have a funny habit of every time I try an expensive wine, I think how many bottles of Basket Press could I buy for that. If I drink a $200 bottle of wine I think would I rather have 3 bottles of BP. Normally the answer is yes. I suppose if money is no object then price is irrelevant though isn't it. It's horses for courses. I can't afford to buy a dozen Granges every year, let alone 1 or 2, so I really don't care how they price it anyway.
Cheers
Ian
If you had to choose between drinking great wine or winning Lotto, which would you choose - Red or White?
Re: How much for Grange?
Grange is not a wine you can really judge by normal standards..just as many other iconic wines out there...Trying to compare it value wise to other wines is a bit of a fruitless exercise....Grange isn't unique in that...
But is Grange a great AU wine? Of course...Is it made to last? Yes it is..Would you be disappointed if your Grange (well stored) didn't go at least 30 years? Probably....What about with other wines in AU? I think you'd be happy if they made 30 years...and in many ways, are amazed that they did...
I'm not a Grange fan..but I just don't think you can try to compare value when it comes to an item like that...That doesn't mean you can't make a value judgement on the wine..but saying you can get 6 of this or 12 of that for the same price..*shrug*..
But is Grange a great AU wine? Of course...Is it made to last? Yes it is..Would you be disappointed if your Grange (well stored) didn't go at least 30 years? Probably....What about with other wines in AU? I think you'd be happy if they made 30 years...and in many ways, are amazed that they did...
I'm not a Grange fan..but I just don't think you can try to compare value when it comes to an item like that...That doesn't mean you can't make a value judgement on the wine..but saying you can get 6 of this or 12 of that for the same price..*shrug*..
Re: How much for Grange?
I have bought 2 bottles of 1997 Grange (a lesser vintage) for around $400, one of them consumed, the other still waiting for a special occasion.
The one consumed was shared with a friend to repay his genorisity of sharing a 89 Grange on 2 previous occasions.
Having experienced this, I have no regrets spending $400, however I will not do it again. I think it is a "Bucket List" thing - you have to experience Grange once if you are interested in wine. It is a great experience.
My price limit now would be no more than $200. With a wine such as this, it must be shared with friends. Unless everyone brings a bottle of Grange, amongst 4 people, you get about 1.5 glasses. I agree that there are plenty of good wines for under $100 and you can get 6 bottles for the price of the Grange, however you will always remember the Occassion when the Grange was consumed.
The one consumed was shared with a friend to repay his genorisity of sharing a 89 Grange on 2 previous occasions.
Having experienced this, I have no regrets spending $400, however I will not do it again. I think it is a "Bucket List" thing - you have to experience Grange once if you are interested in wine. It is a great experience.
My price limit now would be no more than $200. With a wine such as this, it must be shared with friends. Unless everyone brings a bottle of Grange, amongst 4 people, you get about 1.5 glasses. I agree that there are plenty of good wines for under $100 and you can get 6 bottles for the price of the Grange, however you will always remember the Occassion when the Grange was consumed.
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ticklenow1
- Posts: 1106
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Re: How much for Grange?
Polymer wrote:Grange is not a wine you can really judge by normal standards..just as many other iconic wines out there...Trying to compare it value wise to other wines is a bit of a fruitless exercise....Grange isn't unique in that...
But is Grange a great AU wine? Of course...Is it made to last? Yes it is..Would you be disappointed if your Grange (well stored) didn't go at least 30 years? Probably....What about with other wines in AU? I think you'd be happy if they made 30 years...and in many ways, are amazed that they did...
I'm not a Grange fan..but I just don't think you can try to compare value when it comes to an item like that...That doesn't mean you can't make a value judgement on the wine..but saying you can get 6 of this or 12 of that for the same price..*shrug*..
You may be right but I do it only as a VFM exercise. Like I said, if money was no object, who cares what the price is. I'm probably in a very different tax bracket to people who buy Grange so it always comes back to VFM to me. Basket Press is one of my favourite wines so that's what I compare everything to. If I can buy a dozen BP for the same as 1 Grange, I'm ringing Rockford every time. I can enjoy a bottle 12 times whereas with the Grange I get 1 night of enjoyment. *shrug*..
Cheers
Ian
If you had to choose between drinking great wine or winning Lotto, which would you choose - Red or White?
Re: How much for Grange?
Well, I happen to have a bi-partisan view here.
Yes, you need value for money, but at the same time, the Australian wine industry needs Grange and HoG and other comparable wines as a benchmark, a target, an icon that leads the rest of the local industry to greater heights. Just think, where would we be without Grange or HoG?
Yes, you need value for money, but at the same time, the Australian wine industry needs Grange and HoG and other comparable wines as a benchmark, a target, an icon that leads the rest of the local industry to greater heights. Just think, where would we be without Grange or HoG?
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Re: How much for Grange?
ticklenow1 wrote:Polymer wrote:Grange is not a wine you can really judge by normal standards..just as many other iconic wines out there...Trying to compare it value wise to other wines is a bit of a fruitless exercise....Grange isn't unique in that...
But is Grange a great AU wine? Of course...Is it made to last? Yes it is..Would you be disappointed if your Grange (well stored) didn't go at least 30 years? Probably....What about with other wines in AU? I think you'd be happy if they made 30 years...and in many ways, are amazed that they did...
I'm not a Grange fan..but I just don't think you can try to compare value when it comes to an item like that...That doesn't mean you can't make a value judgement on the wine..but saying you can get 6 of this or 12 of that for the same price..*shrug*..
You may be right but I do it only as a VFM exercise. Like I said, if money was no object, who cares what the price is. I'm probably in a very different tax bracket to people who buy Grange so it always comes back to VFM to me. Basket Press is one of my favourite wines so that's what I compare everything to. If I can buy a dozen BP for the same as 1 Grange, I'm ringing Rockford every time. I can enjoy a bottle 12 times whereas with the Grange I get 1 night of enjoyment. *shrug*..
Cheers
Ian
Unless you use a coravin or similar.......
Re: How much for Grange?
Don't think the coravin technology improves the Grange enjoyment other than prolonging it in smaller doses
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chadnchady
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:37 am
Re: How much for Grange?
Personally have never bought one (like many others my upper limit for personal drinking is probably around $100) but have drank it on a few special occasions (the folks bought some back in the 90s when it was less than $200 a bottle. Agree how Grange is an icon wine and there isn't too much reason to try and measure the value of this wine based on how many of another wine you could buy instead. Blind tasted with other good $100 wines most probably can't tell too much a difference. Is Grange a good wine? No doubt. Would I buy it for personal drinking at the current prices? No. But would I buy it if the occasion was real special and I was drinking it with people I wanted to impress (business related) that I know would really appreciate this wine? possibly. I know of a few Chinese family/business friends that are 'wine lovers' and are really into premium Penfolds/Wynns (they like their brands). You always hear them rave about that night when someone opened a Grange/John Riddioch, they just don't forget the occasion. So ya, Grange's value simply can't be measured alone by how it tastes and many that buy it probably aren't thinking of drinking it just for themselves anyway.
Re: How much for Grange?
ticklenow1 wrote:Polymer wrote:Grange is not a wine you can really judge by normal standards..just as many other iconic wines out there...Trying to compare it value wise to other wines is a bit of a fruitless exercise....Grange isn't unique in that...
But is Grange a great AU wine? Of course...Is it made to last? Yes it is..Would you be disappointed if your Grange (well stored) didn't go at least 30 years? Probably....What about with other wines in AU? I think you'd be happy if they made 30 years...and in many ways, are amazed that they did...
I'm not a Grange fan..but I just don't think you can try to compare value when it comes to an item like that...That doesn't mean you can't make a value judgement on the wine..but saying you can get 6 of this or 12 of that for the same price..*shrug*..
You may be right but I do it only as a VFM exercise. Like I said, if money was no object, who cares what the price is. I'm probably in a very different tax bracket to people who buy Grange so it always comes back to VFM to me. Basket Press is one of my favourite wines so that's what I compare everything to. If I can buy a dozen BP for the same as 1 Grange, I'm ringing Rockford every time. I can enjoy a bottle 12 times whereas with the Grange I get 1 night of enjoyment. *shrug*..
Cheers
Ian
I'm not saying you shouldn't care about the cost....and of course VFM comes into play....Who doesn't love great value?
I'm also not saying Grange should be bought without considering it...
And yet, for all of the wines that people say are equivalent..if you were offered one glass of that or one glass of Grange, you'd take the Grange. People at all these tastings, are still drawn to tasting Grange. Even people that have had it many times before, are still drawn to trying it. The quality is very good, and the idea is in our psyche..and just the different experience is worth something...
Grange is not great value...neither are any of these super expensive wines...not one of them represents great value....They do represent something different though....I don't see myself spending 800 on a bottle of wine anytime soon and even less so if it is Grange...but I do know if I thought about value for every wine purchase I've made, I'd be missing out on a lot of great stuff. And if I only thought about value, I don't know if I'd ever spend more than 30ish a bottle.
As far as the Coravin - It does extend the enjoyment of that one bottle..but depends on how you drink. If you drink an entire bottle in one night then yeah, it might not be useful. But if you like trying many different things, being able to stretch that expensive bottle over years (or more than a year) can really change your buying....Like for me, I want one really good glass of wine I can enjoy over a period of time...the 2nd and 3rd glass of the same wine in the same evening has huge diminishing returns for me and essentially they're a waste..but if I can get that one glass experience several times over the course of the year, what I'd be willing to spend on a bottle changes dramatically.
Re: How much for Grange?
I think we're on the same page regarding the importance of Grange etc in the Australian wine pantheon.
As for coravin, well, you have bought the wine, doesn't matter whether you taste it over one night or six imo.
As for coravin, well, you have bought the wine, doesn't matter whether you taste it over one night or six imo.
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Re: How much for Grange?
mjs wrote:I think we're on the same page regarding the importance of Grange etc in the Australian wine pantheon.
As for coravin, well, you have bought the wine, doesn't matter whether you taste it over one night or six imo.
Yeah..so the Coravin is not for you
. For me, because of how I end up drinking wine...I can see it completely changing my buying....Probably double my average bottle price...and cut in half my volume...
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Waiters Friend
- Posts: 2784
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 4:09 am
- Location: Perth WA
Re: How much for Grange?
Surely the question of age comes into it. Given that they don't come into their 'drinking window' until 20 years of age, buying current vintage for drinking in the future is pointless, when you can get older vintages on the secondary market at about half the current retail.
I haven't bought a current release Grange since the 1990 vintage, and the half dozen Granges I have are 1990 or older. All now into 'the window' and the 1986s are fabulous. But, if 1996 or 2006 turn out to be the next 'fabulous' vintages, I'll pick them up at auction as special occasion wines, and closer to their window. No point in buying 2010 (current and allegedly also 'fabulous') now if I may not be around in 20 or more years to open it.
I haven't bought a current release Grange since the 1990 vintage, and the half dozen Granges I have are 1990 or older. All now into 'the window' and the 1986s are fabulous. But, if 1996 or 2006 turn out to be the next 'fabulous' vintages, I'll pick them up at auction as special occasion wines, and closer to their window. No point in buying 2010 (current and allegedly also 'fabulous') now if I may not be around in 20 or more years to open it.
Wine, women and song. Ideally, you can experience all three at once.
Re: How much for Grange?
I think the issue I have with older Grange is it is one of the few premium wines where half of them are probably stored in less than desirable conditions.
For most other wines, the secondary market I think is relatively safe...I think Aussies that buy them actually do take reasonably good care of them. Grange, on the otherhand, is probably the exception to that. Since it is THE iconic Australian wine, plenty of people with little or no knowledge of wine have them and store them in the worst possible ways.
Penfolds Clinic Granges go for a good premium...whereas the rest of the ones out there reflect market value + risk.
For most other wines, the secondary market I think is relatively safe...I think Aussies that buy them actually do take reasonably good care of them. Grange, on the otherhand, is probably the exception to that. Since it is THE iconic Australian wine, plenty of people with little or no knowledge of wine have them and store them in the worst possible ways.
Penfolds Clinic Granges go for a good premium...whereas the rest of the ones out there reflect market value + risk.
Re: How much for Grange?
Unfortunately I am old enough to have purchased many cases and consumed very many bottles of Grange, although my last full-case purchase was the 1992 vintage at $100/bottle. Since then, I have been gifted cases of 95,96 and 2004.
In the 60's/70's and early 80's, Grange was one of the greatest bargains in the wine world. An outstanding, world-class wine at an incredibly modest price. It was very easy to acquire, often left sitting on the shelves even in the 1980's. Every wine lover in Australia my age or older has exactly the same story, as they do for Hill of Grace. You could walk into any wine shop, even some bottle shops, and see one or more vintages sitting there awaiting purchase..
However, that "history" lesson is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Since the 1990 shot to fame upon release, Penfolds made the smart, and correct, decision to "adjust" the pricing to market demands. Grange is no longer simply a wine, it is a luxury product. Like a Ferrari, a Rolex, or Petrus, it is as much about the label as what is actually contained in the bottle.
That is a simple fact of life, and there is nothing the wine lover can do about it. It sells out every year, and I feel confident in 20 years time people will think that $700 a bottle was indeed the "good old days".
Is Grange or HoG worth $700? From purely a "wine perspective", absolutely not. Anyone who thinks so is utterly kidding themselves, and there are a raft of psychological studies and experiments that purport to "prove" that. Indeed, there is a thread over on wine berserkers at the moment discussing exactly that. But this is not confined to Grange, HoG or any other Aussie wine, it is a world-wide wine phenomenon, particularly including the FG's, Burg supers, and Cali Cult Cabs.. When you purchase Grange, you are paying as much for the label as you are the wine. Is that a bad thing? Not really, studies show that our pre-conceptions of what a wine will taste like are as important as the taste of the actual wine itself in the pleasure the wine gives us. In other words, put a Grange in a Bin 28 bottle, and people will love the wine, but not as much as when they saw the same stuff poured from a Grange bottle. I heard Parker speak at an exhibition in Aspen back in the mid-90's, and he said exactly that about Petrus.
But, surely, there is a valid price to be paid for a bit of vinous history.... the mere fact that a wine-lover "owns" and 'drinks" a bottle of Grange is a premium many, myself included, think worth it. I purchased a case for each of my oldest three sons birth years (the youngest gets 2014 Mouton) not because it was the "best" wine going around, but simply because it is "Grange", and perhaps the Shangri-La for Aussie wine lovers.
Would I drink it outside a "special occasion"... well, if i was paying, not on your life!!! In fact, over the years, I have been at many blind tastings where a Grange has been amongst the group, and rarely is it the WOTN. Australia is blessed with many fantastic shiraz wines, including Grange, but there are a host of producers whose quality is minimally behind Grange but whose cost is a fraction of the price of Grange.
For $700, there are now just too many great wines out there, world-wide, and 3-4 bottles of great Burg or Bordeaux is where my money would go. But if I was celebrating something very special, then a bottle of Australia's most famous wine would most certainly enhance the occasion.
In the 60's/70's and early 80's, Grange was one of the greatest bargains in the wine world. An outstanding, world-class wine at an incredibly modest price. It was very easy to acquire, often left sitting on the shelves even in the 1980's. Every wine lover in Australia my age or older has exactly the same story, as they do for Hill of Grace. You could walk into any wine shop, even some bottle shops, and see one or more vintages sitting there awaiting purchase..
However, that "history" lesson is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Since the 1990 shot to fame upon release, Penfolds made the smart, and correct, decision to "adjust" the pricing to market demands. Grange is no longer simply a wine, it is a luxury product. Like a Ferrari, a Rolex, or Petrus, it is as much about the label as what is actually contained in the bottle.
That is a simple fact of life, and there is nothing the wine lover can do about it. It sells out every year, and I feel confident in 20 years time people will think that $700 a bottle was indeed the "good old days".
Is Grange or HoG worth $700? From purely a "wine perspective", absolutely not. Anyone who thinks so is utterly kidding themselves, and there are a raft of psychological studies and experiments that purport to "prove" that. Indeed, there is a thread over on wine berserkers at the moment discussing exactly that. But this is not confined to Grange, HoG or any other Aussie wine, it is a world-wide wine phenomenon, particularly including the FG's, Burg supers, and Cali Cult Cabs.. When you purchase Grange, you are paying as much for the label as you are the wine. Is that a bad thing? Not really, studies show that our pre-conceptions of what a wine will taste like are as important as the taste of the actual wine itself in the pleasure the wine gives us. In other words, put a Grange in a Bin 28 bottle, and people will love the wine, but not as much as when they saw the same stuff poured from a Grange bottle. I heard Parker speak at an exhibition in Aspen back in the mid-90's, and he said exactly that about Petrus.
But, surely, there is a valid price to be paid for a bit of vinous history.... the mere fact that a wine-lover "owns" and 'drinks" a bottle of Grange is a premium many, myself included, think worth it. I purchased a case for each of my oldest three sons birth years (the youngest gets 2014 Mouton) not because it was the "best" wine going around, but simply because it is "Grange", and perhaps the Shangri-La for Aussie wine lovers.
Would I drink it outside a "special occasion"... well, if i was paying, not on your life!!! In fact, over the years, I have been at many blind tastings where a Grange has been amongst the group, and rarely is it the WOTN. Australia is blessed with many fantastic shiraz wines, including Grange, but there are a host of producers whose quality is minimally behind Grange but whose cost is a fraction of the price of Grange.
For $700, there are now just too many great wines out there, world-wide, and 3-4 bottles of great Burg or Bordeaux is where my money would go. But if I was celebrating something very special, then a bottle of Australia's most famous wine would most certainly enhance the occasion.
Re: How much for Grange?
Polymer wrote:I think the issue I have with older Grange is it is one of the few premium wines where half of them are probably stored in less than desirable conditions.
For most other wines, the secondary market I think is relatively safe...I think Aussies that buy them actually do take reasonably good care of them. Grange, on the otherhand, is probably the exception to that. Since it is THE iconic Australian wine, plenty of people with little or no knowledge of wine have them and store them in the worst possible ways.
Penfolds Clinic Granges go for a good premium...whereas the rest of the ones out there reflect market value + risk.
agree 100%. Buying single bottles of older Grange is a huge risk, likely to have sat in the wardrobe having received it as a gift from a client or colleague.
Re: How much for Grange?
So.....what wines have beaten Grange blind over the years? (obviously this is totally subjective....)
Re: How much for Grange?
You back from Indonesia Alex?
For anyone who didn't see it, here is my take on my first Grange experience. It was a pretty epic one.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14496&p=123277&hilit=2002+giaconda#p123277
Whilst I concluded that Grange was not great 'value' in that thread, I don't think you can value high end wine as value. There is a diminishing return as prices go up, especially in this day and age where sub $50 wines can be so good. However, both with the iconic status and the fact that it is, well, really good wine, the value proposition becomes less important. This was a wonderful evening with friends that I will remember for a long, long time. I still think of it fondly. I wish it had gone longer. Will I collect Grange? Not really. Will I stash away the odd bottle hoping to share another evening like this with friends? Definitely.
Would I rather drink 50 Chalambars or a really high end Burgundy that I might remember for the rest of my life? No brainer. I reckon once you get to a certain price, say $100, a wine may only get 10% better for each extra $100 you spend on it, whereas from $20 to $40, $40 to $80, it may be nearly twice as good. But, if you can afford it, or have rich friends, who doesn't want that 40% or 50% better wine, as an experience?
For anyone who didn't see it, here is my take on my first Grange experience. It was a pretty epic one.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14496&p=123277&hilit=2002+giaconda#p123277
Whilst I concluded that Grange was not great 'value' in that thread, I don't think you can value high end wine as value. There is a diminishing return as prices go up, especially in this day and age where sub $50 wines can be so good. However, both with the iconic status and the fact that it is, well, really good wine, the value proposition becomes less important. This was a wonderful evening with friends that I will remember for a long, long time. I still think of it fondly. I wish it had gone longer. Will I collect Grange? Not really. Will I stash away the odd bottle hoping to share another evening like this with friends? Definitely.
Would I rather drink 50 Chalambars or a really high end Burgundy that I might remember for the rest of my life? No brainer. I reckon once you get to a certain price, say $100, a wine may only get 10% better for each extra $100 you spend on it, whereas from $20 to $40, $40 to $80, it may be nearly twice as good. But, if you can afford it, or have rich friends, who doesn't want that 40% or 50% better wine, as an experience?
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Re: How much for Grange?
mjs wrote:As for coravin, well, you have bought the wine, doesn't matter whether you taste it over one night or six imo.
I disagree. To Polymer's point, the law of diminishing marginal returns is relevant - at least to me. I would much rather have 1 or 2 glasses on a number of occasions of something ultra rare / ultra expensive than have the whole bottle in one sitting.
Each to their own,
Mike
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Re: How much for Grange?
ticklenow1 wrote:
I have a funny habit of every time I try an expensive wine, I think how many bottles of Basket Press could I buy for that. If I drink a $200 bottle of wine I think would I rather have 3 bottles of BP.
Funny you should say that.... I used the same equation for 20+ years !
Re: How much for Grange?
swirler wrote:So.....what wines have beaten Grange blind over the years? (obviously this is totally subjective....)
Plenty, a decade ago I was in a wine group of six that met monthly and the host showed totally blind wines, so you did not have any idea of what was being presented until the end of the night (and hours of discussion) That method is a real eye-opener, it is much, much harder to pick Grange blind than you might think. Any multi-regional blend is extremely difficult to nail down. Mature Barossa shiraz is always much easier to pick, they all have that basic sameness (in a good way!!)
I do recall one evening when the WOTN turned out to be a 1991 Old Block Shiraz, and there was a 1982 Grange in the bunch. But there are many other instances of 'lesser" wines trumping the king.
I have also often noticed that mature Grange can often look pretty simple when seen alongside a high-class Hermitage.
Do not mis-interpret what i am saying, Grange is a great wine, no doubt, and it is worth $700/bottle. (obviously, otherwise we would see stacks of the stuff sitting on the shelves)
B
This phenomenon is not confined to Grange, I have been at many blind tastings when a lesser growth has triumphed over a Latour or a Mouton. Many times.
Re: How much for Grange?
oh, and i have said this before.... in the very early 80's, both Wolf Blass Black Label and LEAS Chardonnay were more expensive than Grange.