Fantastic Viewing

[felixp]

Last Friday, the US TV series "American Greed" finally aired the episode on Rudy Kuniawan. (season 9, episode 11 on You Tube: Vintage Wine Fraud)

absolutely compelling and riveting viewing for any wine lover. Made even more incredible if you have access to the Wine advocate web site, where you can read the thread started recently by RPJ and the number of associated threads, dating back to 2004. Indeed, the 2004 thread, posted by Kuniawan, is five pages of absolutely startling reading, highlighting the naivety, snobbery and simple stupidity so many of us wine lovers display. I posted a few months back that I stopped my subscription to a (currently flavour-of-the-month) Burgundy wine critic on the "gossip" from a mate in Burgundy, and if you read the 2004 thread you will have a pretty good idea why In that 2004 thread, you even have a few Aussies kow-towing to the bloke, when it seemed pretty obvious from the start that a 25 year old who had been drinking for 5 years knew FAR too much to be genuine. I even remember reading the thread at the time, and, like many on that board, called BS from the start.
this is most certainly a conspiracy, which I believe involved many, many players, but the FBI only got Rudy. Just exactly who were the players will never be known, but if you read that 2004 thread and watch the episode, I am pretty sure your conclusions won't be too different from mine.
anyway, if you have a spare 45 mins, watch it on You Tube. Absolutely compelling stuff.

[Polymer]

Yeah good stuff...as much as we saw it on the forums back then..it was cool to see it on video..

[michel]

yeah watched it already
it is amazing
anyone know a website to work out how to identify forged wines ?
Margaret Downey will do it for a fee

[JamieBahrain]

Thanks, enjoyed the show whilst enjoying a glass of modest Jadot 1er Cru which I'm sure nobody would fake.

After my experience last year in Piedmont doing detective work on fake Barolo it's extraordinary the extent of the fraud and how it extends well beyond high end Burgundy & Bordeaux.

[phillisc]

Yes and all over something thats about 85% water.

I love wine as much as the next bloke (or lady) but will never be in the position to seriously consider dropping massive coin on a case of La Tache, but can clearly see how there is enormous scope for fraud exploitation and deception.

You could say that when the average punter walks through the door it happens anyway...but perhaps it doesn't cost them 10 grand.

Cheers
Craig

[felixp]

the "American Greed" thread on the RPJ forum is starting to name names, interesting considering the libel laws over there.
just fascinating reading, again, and I am so glad I stopped my subscription and ignore scores from a "critic" who clearly cannot tell a cheap fake from real bottles of Burgundy's greatest wines, and who clearly had an "interesting" relationship with a (now) convicted criminal.
Won't stop the retailers of this world flashing his scores around though!!!!

[Gavin Trott]

the "American Greed" thread on the RPJ forum is starting to name names, interesting considering the libel laws over there.
just fascinating reading, again, and I am so glad I stopped my subscription and ignore scores from a "critic" who clearly cannot tell a cheap fake from real bottles of Burgundy's greatest wines, and who clearly had an "interesting" relationship with a (now) convicted criminal.
Won't stop the retailers of this world flashing his scores around though!!!!

yes it will!

.

[rens]

Listened to it on my daily commute. Enjoyed it. Although some of the tasting note descriptors were interesting to say the least

[felixp]

the "American Greed" thread on the RPJ forum is starting to name names, interesting considering the libel laws over there.
just fascinating reading, again, and I am so glad I stopped my subscription and ignore scores from a "critic" who clearly cannot tell a cheap fake from real bottles of Burgundy's greatest wines, and who clearly had an "interesting" relationship with a (now) convicted criminal.
Won't stop the retailers of this world flashing his scores around though!!!!

yes it will!

.

well, I guess you know who I mean. Heard a lot of stories about the man, totally separate to this whole fiasco. Makes you wonder just how he actually rose to his current position of journalistic power!!!!!

[Croquet King]

This was a very interesting video.
I'd be interested in how he got the wine to at least taste close to what it was meant to. Understand that he used variability but I'm guessing he'd oxidise the wine as part of the blending process.

He never got picked up for the quality of the wine, only the mistake of creating fictitious vintage / wine combinations.

[dave vino]

This was a very interesting video.
I'd be interested in how he got the wine to at least taste close to what it was meant to.

Not many people know how a bottle is 'meant' to taste. Most people can't even get a blind tasting 50% right with all the extra factors at play (provenance, wine making influence, vintage etc) can affect how it tastes/smells.

Hell we've had the exact same wine from a magnum come out blind in different flights and people didn't pick it (Thanks Dan ) so how do you remember a wine years apart if you struggle hours apart. And the old chestnut of there are no good vintages of wines over 30 years of age only good bottles. (or whatever it is) puts even more spin on it.

I conducted a Good, Better, Best tasting and that had fairly seasoned wine drinkers struggling to rank wines that they were probably familiar with. So picking out a cheap fake if done thoughtfully is not so cut and dried especially on aged wines.

[felixp]

yes, I can see it would be difficult for most of us. But if you can't see it is fake, in the case of the 61 Romanee Conti, and then go on to describe it as "a huge wine, immensely powerful, rich and deep" (as in the quotes from the 2004 thread) when DRC RC is supposed to be quite the opposite in terms of body, (this is apart from the cringe-worthy notes such as orgasmic etc) then you are a double fool. It might, IMO, be easier to fake an old Bordeaux, but to fake old DRC is pretty daunting, especially if you are using Marcassin pinot as a blender!!!!
hilarious in the thread where there is a description of one of the most famous Burg critics enthusing over an old magnum of Ponsot when no such wine ever existed!!!
Bad enough to mistake a fake wine, but shocking that a supposed world-expert did not even know the broad history of one of the region's most famous producers. I only wish the had given it a score!!!!!
PS, you gotta wonder how stupid some people are. How in the world would anyone believe a 25 year old man could possibly have intricate tasting knowledge of virtually every vintage of every famous wine the world has ever produced in the space of 5 years? Do they really think he tasted the required 20-30 famous wines every day for five years, only to have the ability to recall every last wine he saw?
Even in the current thread, one author describes his amazing palate (despite already knowing what a crook this bloke is) and his ability to nail four different vintages of Grange. yea, right, I bet Halliday has drunk 100 times the Grange this guy has, but would struggle to do it. OTOH, if you slipped $500 to the sommelier to give you the answers before-hand, even I might manage that!!!

[dave vino]

After reading the Billionaires Vinegar, I can sort of see where the herd mentality comes from. Not questioning the experts esp when it is the likes of Broadbent et al. I see wine as very similar to Hifi in how people can wax lyrical about how a cable can make such a difference yet when asked to do a ABX test come up with all these criteria as to why it is impossible to do (line levels, source, components yadda, yadda) - if it is as night and day as you say, it shouldn't be a problem!!

[Polymer]

yes, I can see it would be difficult for most of us. But if you can't see it is fake, in the case of the 61 Romanee Conti, and then go on to describe it as "a huge wine, immensely powerful, rich and deep" (as in the quotes from the 2004 thread) when DRC RC is supposed to be quite the opposite in terms of body, (this is apart from the cringe-worthy notes such as orgasmic etc) then you are a double fool. It might, IMO, be easier to fake an old Bordeaux, but to fake old DRC is pretty daunting, especially if you are using Marcassin pinot as a blender!!!!
hilarious in the thread where there is a description of one of the most famous Burg critics enthusing over an old magnum of Ponsot when no such wine ever existed!!!
Bad enough to mistake a fake wine, but shocking that a supposed world-expert did not even know the broad history of one of the region's most famous producers. I only wish the had given it a score!!!!!
PS, you gotta wonder how stupid some people are. How in the world would anyone believe a 25 year old man could possibly have intricate tasting knowledge of virtually every vintage of every famous wine the world has ever produced in the space of 5 years? Do they really think he tasted the required 20-30 famous wines every day for five years, only to have the ability to recall every last wine he saw?
Even in the current thread, one author describes his amazing palate (despite already knowing what a crook this bloke is) and his ability to nail four different vintages of Grange. yea, right, I bet Halliday has drunk 100 times the Grange this guy has, but would struggle to do it. OTOH, if you slipped $500 to the sommelier to give you the answers before-hand, even I might manage that!!!

It could be Rudy had a great palate...he was able to blend wines to make something passable...Or it could be it was all just a setup to make it look like he was great at blind tasting (he already knew the wine).

Either way, it is easy for us to look at the notes and think WTF because we're not in the moment or connected to the situation...We have a clear head without any outside influences...But if you had numerous fantastic wines from a person who has been gradually building their credibility and he brings several different unicorn wines (that you feel are accurate) and brings another one and is telling you it is legit (and remember he's already established his blind skills at this point)....are you going to question it or are you just going to enjoy the moment? I'm sure we've all had wines that were not what we would have expected...old wines that tasted decades younger than they were..

Or what if someone is just taking off vintages and passing them off as the great ones? Becomes really hard to spot fakes...

[camw]

It is really easy to look back and say how obvious it all was and how funny it is that people got tricked but there were plenty of factors that made it easier to go along with (that have been covered by many articles and discussions previously and which I'm not super interested in going over again).

For what its worth, plenty of Wine Advocate reviewers, past and present have been involved in tastings and publishing notes on wines and glowing words for various counterfeiters over the years, you could start by looking at Parker and tastings held by Rodenstock during the mid 90s - perhaps it isn't just some Burgundy reviewers that you should cancel your subscription to.

[Chris H]

Thanks for the link to the video Felix. Fascinating isn't it.

In retrospect there are many punters who enjoyed the "largesse" of Rudy at various dinners and are keeping their heads down because of the embarrassment in hindsight. Easy to get caught up in it all at the time I suspect though - plenty of comments about people being in denial during the whole time period. Too good to be true but probably had too good a time to want it to be untrue. The fraudster group on the other hand though - despicable. And some of those fraudulent wines have now spread out across the world through offloading from some of the rich buyers.

[felixp]

It is really easy to look back and say how obvious it all was and how funny it is that people got tricked but there were plenty of factors that made it easier to go along with (that have been covered by many articles and discussions previously and which I'm not super interested in going over again).

For what its worth, plenty of Wine Advocate reviewers, past and present have been involved in tastings and publishing notes on wines and glowing words for various counterfeiters over the years, you could start by looking at Parker and tastings held by Rodenstock during the mid 90s - perhaps it isn't just some Burgundy reviewers that you should cancel your subscription to.

.... some good points Cam. However, it seems with the Rodenstock tastings, most were the genuine article when seen by the experts, with the exception of two tastings, where HRH and Morris were fooled by fake wines. RPJ, it seems, escaped, and Coates claims he thought the burgs he tasted were clearly not "right". Like RK, Rodenstock gained credibility with genuine tastings, but then it seems many of the RK tastings soon became wines he "supplied", even with experts present. (and I certainly don't count the "gang of 12 as experts!!!) Could restaurant "Cru" be in on this? It is not out of the question!!
..... in addition, the general drift of the threads on both WB and WA forums would suggest that RK's deception was both incredibly intricate and widespread. It seems many, many players were involved, with RK the only FBI target (the FBI team break-up and the statute of limitations "saving" the rest in light of RK's refusal to name names.)
..... thirdly, at least Rodenstock faked wines that actually existed, whereas RK fooled one, possibly two, Burg experts with wines that never, ever even existed. I would have expected a better knowledge of the region's more famous producers, and was really surprised by that.
..... if you read both threads and associated notes, you will have covered over 450 pages!!!! exhausting, but for me it is like the most fascinating of novels, and extremely hard to put down!!! The 2004 RPJ thread, before the deception was discovered, is absolutely riveting stuff!!!

[felixp]

Thanks for the link to the video Felix. Fascinating isn't it.

In retrospect there are many punters who enjoyed the "largesse" of Rudy at various dinners and are keeping their heads down because of the embarrassment in hindsight. Easy to get caught up in it all at the time I suspect though - plenty of comments about people being in denial during the whole time period. Too good to be true but probably had too good a time to want it to be untrue. The fraudster group on the other hand though - despicable. And some of those fraudulent wines have now spread out across the world through offloading from some of the rich buyers.

......... especially in HK circa 2011-2013. Many stories of opening wines and finding them to be obviously fake, but once opened, there is basically no returns. Mind you, if they found a fake label after drinking the stuff, I would have thought there is some recourse available.

[Polymer]

......... especially in HK circa 2011-2013. Many stories of opening wines and finding them to be obviously fake, but once opened, there is basically no returns. Mind you, if they found a fake label after drinking the stuff, I would have thought there is some recourse available.

I would think in HK there would be a lot of Rudy's running around...

[camw]

However, it seems with the Rodenstock tastings, most were the genuine article when seen by the experts, with the exception of two tastings, where HRH and Morris were fooled by fake wines. RPJ, it seems, escaped, and Coates claims he thought the burgs he tasted were clearly not "right".

My understanding is that there is considerable doubt over the 1921 Petrus magnum that Parker gave 100 points (with Petrus saying they were never produced) and that has to cast some doubt on the other wines he tasted through various events with Rodenstock and Royal Wine Merchants (who were heavily linked into Rodenstock).

There were a number of genuine bottles presented by Rudy as well (including from wine lists at restaurants) that would have helped him with initially gaining credibility. The empty genuine bottles were kept by Rudy, no doubt to be used as part of future forged wines. In a number of reports Rudy would bring out "big gun" magnums later in the night, so if you've been primed on some genuine wines and bottles from other people and are presented with something that is not entirely right I can see the combination of generosity and consumed alcohol easily clouding your judgement. Even if you are sceptical or have doubts, you may give the person the benefit of the doubt and think that they bought a counterfeit at auction rather than necessarily being the producer of the fake.

Ultimately it was the vintages that never existed that did Rudy in but it is scary to think of the counterfeiters out there keeping a low profile, sticking to known vintages and wines and just going about their business with a greater degree of safety.

[Polymer]

If he stopped after the Ponsot episode, he probably would've been safe...They nabbed him within the statute of limitations for that but I think it was that these wines continued to keep coming out and out and more people started talking about it and knew where it was coming from...

But I agree, if he didn't actually screw up and was just slightly less aggressive (greedy) he probably would've gotten away with it. I'm convinced he was just spending so much money he had to start coming out with crazy quantities of rare wine just to help pay for his lifestyle... and that's what started raising so many eyebrows...but scary that people might be out there doing this but just in far smaller amounts and they'll never get questioned..

[felixp]

Cam, Petrus in 1921 had multiple Belgian bottlings, where it was popular. I recall (but happy to be corrected) that pre-war, Petrus was only 50-60% chateau bottled. The score in question was from a Belgian bottle, and supposedly this is where the confusion lay. However, you are correct in that several famous critics have been fooled, makes you wonder why anyone would buy such treasures!!!!! Still, never underestimate the power of the mind!!! (millions of anorexics will testify to that)

[dave vino]

Coravin and carbon dating should sort out the pre-1950's bottles

[felixp]

If he stopped after the Ponsot episode, he probably would've been safe...They nabbed him within the statute of limitations for that but I think it was that these wines continued to keep coming out and out and more people started talking about it and knew where it was coming from...

But I agree, if he didn't actually screw up and was just slightly less aggressive (greedy) he probably would've gotten away with it. I'm convinced he was just spending so much money he had to start coming out with crazy quantities of rare wine just to help pay for his lifestyle... and that's what started raising so many eyebrows...but scary that people might be out there doing this but just in far smaller amounts and they'll never get questioned..

haha, yea, I was highly amused by the 1966 DRC Montrachet story

the other scary thing is just how some auction houses behave. I googled Spectrum auctions in the USA, and was amazed it is still trading!!!!!! But not as amazed as to realise John Kapon is still head of Acker wines.... they are big in HK, and I wouldn't touch them with a three hundred foot barge pole.

[Polymer]

Yes..they're still trading....They're not far from where I grew up and have most of my wine but I'll never use them....

[swirler]

Polymer, sorry, were you referring to Spectrum or Acker (Hong Kong)?

[JamieBahrain]

......... especially in HK circa 2011-2013. Many stories of opening wines and finding them to be obviously fake, but once opened, there is basically no returns. Mind you, if they found a fake label after drinking the stuff, I would have thought there is some recourse available.

I would think in HK there would be a lot of Rudy's running around...

When I arrived in HKG 13 years ago I saw the recycling of Petrus, DRC bottles to name a few. It was prolific in Macau. Having done a number of party tricks with Hill of Grace bottles where the wine could be drunk, capsule removed and replaced with ease and refilled, it seemed obvious what I thought was a joke was going on in a grand commercial scale in Asia.

I have never, ever bought ultra-premium in Hong Kong or Asia. I have always bought from Europe direct and this hasn't been without incident!

[grapeobserver]

An interesting summary. I suppose an unasked question is whether we need to worry locally. The scale does seem alarming as do Ponsot's comments. Hopefully there are a few local Maureen Downeys casting a sceptical eye. Caveat emptor as always seems a sound rule of thumb.

[felixp]

much bigger problem in Australia is the presence of sub-optimal wines in the auction houses. There are rumours up here (HK) that a reasonably large consignment of high-level Bordeaux that was heat affected on route to HK from Europe made it's way to the Aus auction houses. However, that is certainly just a rumour and not substantiated. Having said that, my experiences with the wine purchased at auction has, touch wood, been fantastic.
logic would tell you that fake old vintage DRC and the like could appear anywhere, including Australia, but I haven't seen the really high end stuff at auction.
I guess on the fake wine front, it is quite possible to re-fill the bottles of old vintages of Grange pretty easily, and I for one would never purchase a single bottle of old Grange unless I had a pretty detailed provenance history.
I guess caveat emptor applies to any auction purchase.