Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Polymer · Post by **Polymer** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:46 pm

So what do you think of Brett in a wine?

Some people like a little...some like a lot..some can't stand any...some feel they can't stand any but don't realize they're enjoying a little bit...Does it matter on what type of wine you're drinking? Do you feel certain areas you're more ok with it than others? Or certain types of brett that you enjoy/dislike more than others?

Purely a wine fault? Sort of a wine fault? Is it a reflection of the area or purely winemaking?

griff · Post by **griff** » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:43 pm

You already know my opinion I think. A wine fault that at very low levels indeed can add complexity to young wine that is in the primary phase.

cheers

Carl

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:45 am

Akin to TCA for me. Any brett and the bottle goes down the sink

Polymer · Post by **Polymer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:11 am

I guess that begs the question, are you sure there aren't plenty of ones with some brett but you're not detecting it as such?

I find that people have their own opinions about what constitutes brett..and there are different types...but generally there are certain ones they hate..and certain ones people don't associate with brett but technically they are...

You're even seeing brett introduced into a lot of craft beers now (Sours) purposely.

rossmckay · Post by **rossmckay** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:01 am

I'm with Carl, good strains of Brett at low levels in a younger wine can add complexity and similarly with Polymer's statement about knowing it is there. When you look at the Brett Aroma wheel and you have the smoky, fruity, spicy, floral, earthy, wood, savoury aromas, bring it on. The putrid, chemical, earthy, not so much. Hell, the dairy aromas sound the same as the descriptors I've heard when tasting most whites with malo fermentation.

I've had plenty of wine which was damn fine when young, a Chapoutier Cote Rotie this week comes to mind, which a few years later as the sulphides diminished, became undrinkable. This makes me think that perhaps next time, I'll try the young chardonnay trick for a day or two rather than tipping it down the sink. Just for the sake of science.

maybs · Post by **maybs** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:04 am

I don't mind low levels especially where it comes through in leathery or spicy notes, but the whole composty, barnyard, chicken poo type thing puts me write off. I also find I tolerate the smell better than the taste.

I also suspect I am one of those who probably drinks a few wines with Brett and doesn't even realise.

TiggerK · Post by **TiggerK** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:04 am

I always get upset when the blanket statement of 'I hate brett' is made. As many have said here, brett has so many forms, both good and bad, although of course the type and amount of it is critical in order for it to be 'good brett'.

Brett flavour wheel here.. http://palatepress.com/2013/01/wine/revelations-about-brettanomyces-in-wine/brett-aroma-wheel/ (refresh if you get a silly compression error msg)

Article about the making of the flavour wheel here http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=news&content=114296

Metallic and band-aid brett are probably the most common ugly brett flavours I come across, but when a bit of barnyard/leather/cigar/coffee/pencil shaving/smoked meat appears, I'm not going to complain, whether it's actually derived from brett or not.

The 'Earthy' part of the wheel could also be TCA, that's curious.... almost as curious as the question of when Polymer actually sleeps. 3am teleconference?

ufo · Post by **ufo** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:43 am

griff wrote:You already know my opinion I think. A wine fault that at very low levels indeed can add complexity to young wine that is in the primary phase.

cheers

Carl

+1

Mike Hawkins · Post by **Mike Hawkins** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:12 am

TiggerK wrote:I always get upset when the blanket statement of 'I hate brett' is made. As many have said here, brett has so many forms, both good and bad, although of course the type and amount of it is critical in order for it to be 'good brett'.

Brett flavour wheel here.. http://palatepress.com/2013/01/wine/revelations-about-brettanomyces-in-wine/brett-aroma-wheel/ (refresh if you get a silly compression error msg)

Article about the making of the flavour wheel here http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=news&content=114296

Metallic and band-aid brett are probably the most common ugly brett flavours I come across, but when a bit of barnyard/leather/cigar/coffee/pencil shaving/smoked meat appears, I'm not going to complain, whether it's actually derived from brett or not.

The 'Earthy' part of the wheel could also be TCA, that's curious.... almost as curious as the question of when Polymer actually sleeps. 3am teleconference?

Sorry Tigger, but I really hate brett.... In any of its forms! :cry:

TiggerK · Post by **TiggerK** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:16 am

Mike Hawkins wrote:Sorry Tigger, but I really hate brett.... In any of its forms!

Even leather/cigar/coffee/pencil shaving/smoked meat ?? Of course these may or may not be brett derived, but it could well be that you like something but don't associate it as brett, when it actually is.

Polymer · Post by **Polymer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:16 pm

griff wrote:You already know my opinion I think. A wine fault that at very low levels indeed can add complexity to young wine that is in the primary phase.

cheers

Carl

Carl,

So do you think as it ages that Brett will only bloom and get worse? Or do you feel it is possible for it to still add to the complexity as the wine ages?

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:32 pm

TiggerK wrote:
Mike Hawkins wrote:Sorry Tigger, but I really hate brett.... In any of its forms!

Even leather/cigar/coffee/pencil shaving/smoked meat ?? Of course these may or may not be brett derived, but it could well be that you like something but don't associate it as brett, when it actually is.

I'm with Mike here, have a very low tolerance for it and have probably sinked many bottles over the years that others may well have enjoyed.

Polymer · Post by **Polymer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:53 pm

Barney wrote:I'm with Mike here, have a very low tolerance for it and have probably sinked many bottles over the years that others may well have enjoyed.

Well, what I'm getting at is, when people say that, they are making a blanket statement about all brett. In reality, most people are enjoying certain things that ARE brett they just don't realize it or they're not calling it that.

So if you had to describe what it is when you taste brett, or what you're calling brett or what type of brett puts you off, what would it be? For example, a lot of people dislike band aid and metallic...

rossmckay · Post by **rossmckay** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:53 pm

Polymer wrote:
griff wrote:You already know my opinion I think. A wine fault that at very low levels indeed can add complexity to young wine that is in the primary phase.

cheers

Carl

Carl,

So do you think as it ages that Brett will only bloom and get worse? Or do you feel it is possible for it to still add to the complexity as the wine ages?

Sulphides keep Brett in control, when the free sulphides diminish with age, Brett blooms

Polymer · Post by **Polymer** » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:32 pm

But when is that? Does that mean a wine with some brett can't age? I've had older ones with some brett and they seemed fine. I've also had older ones that were terribly bretty to the point where I just didn't want to drink them...

Post by **sjw_11** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:39 am

I dont know why you all keep picking on Brett, it doesnt seem a very nice thing to do... I am not sure what Brett did to upset you all, but give the poor guy a chance.

:lol:

rossmckay · Post by **rossmckay** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:15 am

sjw_11 wrote:I dont know why you all keep picking on Brett, it doesnt seem a very nice thing to do... I am not sure what Brett did to upset you all, but give the poor guy a chance.

I wonder how difficult it would be for a winemaker named Brett you get a job?

Polymer wrote:But when is that? Does that mean a wine with some brett can't age? I've had older ones with some brett and they seemed fine. I've also had older ones that were terribly bretty to the point where I just didn't want to drink them...

Good point, I've experienced the same. I found a reference to a study that said "the presence of other compounds, such as isobutyric and isovaleric acids, created a sort of Ã¢â‚¬Å“masking effectÃ¢â‚¬Â that basically Ã¢â‚¬Å“hidÃ¢â‚¬Â any Brett character that one would expect to be there based on the wineÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s ethylphenol levels" and another reference to a different study (concerning methods of detection) that said "a strain of Brett that does not produce much ethyl phenol could potentially be present in very high concentrations and still not spoil the wine, while another strain of Brett that has the ability to produce exorbitant levels of ethyl phenol only needs to be present in small numbers before spoiling the wine it inhabits". This same article also referred to the study citing masking organisms 'it is very difficult to completely isolate Brett from other yeasts, bacteria, or other cells, so it is possible that the cultures of these 8 samples were not completely Ã¢â‚¬Å“cleanÃ¢â‚¬Â and contained other organisms that effectively Ã¢â‚¬Å“hidÃ¢â‚¬Â the Brett'.

An interesting side note is that using cellulose polymers in fining can apparently reduce the levels of 4-ethylphenol and 4-ethylguaiacol in Brett infected wines.The three compounds produced by Brett yeast are:
-4-ethylphenol - farmyard, bandaid
-4-ethylguaiacol - bacon, spice, cloves smoky
-isovaleric acid - cheese, rancidity, sweaty saddle
I'm unsure as to whether cellulose polymers are currently used as apparetly they also produced major reductions of phenol and anthocyanen which would change the fundamental character of the wine.

In summary it seems that the reasons for different levels and detectability are:
-the amount of free sulphides keeping Brett in check
-the fining or brett reduction agents used
-the strain of Brett and what compounds it produces
-the masking effects of other compounds and/or organisms
-the interaction between Brett and other yeasts
-the tolerance and personal preference of the taster

What I couldn't find was references to the change in mouthfeel and the effect this has on aroma perception.

BTW, thanks for asking these questions, I much prefer this sort of study over revision of 184 stinking pages by next week

rens · Post by **rens** » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:51 am

At low levels in young wines when it is the smokey, bacon clove variety. don't mind a little earthy barnyard in a Pinot though.

griff · Post by **griff** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:13 am

There are two reasons why I don't like brett in mature wine. The first is as you say it can bloom with age and temperatures over 20 degrees. Less of an issue with many using active cooling storage in Australia these days.

The second reason is a palate preference. I believe that brett as it contributes to secondary aromas can be a complexing agent that may mask tertiary aromas of mature wine. This is less of an issue with wines that have yet to gain tertiary aromas i.e. purely primary. Perhaps like another winemaking influence like too much oak

cheers

Carl

rossmckay · Post by **rossmckay** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:41 pm

griff wrote:
The second reason is a palate preference. I believe that brett as it contributes to secondary aromas can be a complexing agent that may mask tertiary aromas of mature wine. This is less of an issue with wines that have yet to gain tertiary aromas i.e. purely primary. Perhaps like another winemaking influence like too much oak

cheers

Carl

That's not a bad point, I like the way you're thinking

mjs · Post by **mjs** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:37 pm

Certainly do not like the metallic band-aidy Brett that strips the fruit out. I accept that there probably are many instances where other forms are present in low levels adding something that seems like complexity. But, once you have it, you can't rid of it. I think I'm fairly sensitive to both Brett and TCA, so not a fan of Brett at all really.

sparky · Post by **sparky** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:53 am

Interestingly, I've found that many of our winemakers put a bit of historical context to brett as well.

I've frequently heard them comment that what was an acceptable level and style in a wine from years gone by is now deemed not acceptable, and I don't think that's just in relation to development in the bottle. Tastes have changed (as a gross generalization).

Personally I don't mind a little bit, but at the point that it's reminiscent of a horses arse covered in Elastoplast I lose interest.

pstarr · Post by **pstarr** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:39 am

Never had a bretty wine I thought wouldn't have been better without it.

phillisc · Post by **phillisc** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:08 pm

I know that a few here have suggested that some of the Henschke Mount Eds 'suffered a bit' from Brett, but I am really struggling with the concept.
I get the metallic blue nib type of taste, just last week or so a 99 RSW had this, but I thought it was a beautiful wine by the way, but clearly my tolerance is high or my exposure to overtly bretty wines has been low.

Sure learn a hell of a lot on Auswine

Cheers
Craig

mjs · Post by **mjs** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:10 pm

Craig,

Similarly, I was at a tasting in the winery at Seppelts Great Western some years ago and most of the reds we tasted seemed bretty to me to a certain extent. That said, I have had some great St Peters and other labels before and since that didn't show that. Just on the day, the wines we tried seemed affected. Didn't spoil the evening's black tie dinner in the drives of course

cheers
Malcolm

dingozegan · Post by **dingozegan** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:24 pm

I hate Brett-affected wines where the nose is subdued and smells medicinal, and the palate is stripped and tastes metallic.

I love when Brett lends a wine a nose complexed by aromas reminiscent of meat, animal, leather, or farmyard (particulary those with lots of cow shit around - I am actually serious about that

). I see this in wine way more than what is (for me) "bad" Brett (I apparently seem to have a low aroma-concentration threshold and a high tolerance for Brett-derived aromas like 4EG and 4EP). But what works no doubt depends on the wine style, the strain(s) of Brett and their growth.

There seems to be more consumer awareness of Brett now than there was 20 years ago (or even 10 years ago), but I am suspicious the average Aussie consumer's attitude is (or was) more influenced by the industry than by personal tastes. In Australia, Brett tends to get more negative press - it's at least accepted (sometimes appreciated) more widely elsewhere. Different cultures see it differently. IMO, too many Aussie winemakers are fearful of Brett to the point of paranoia.

Polymer · Post by **Polymer** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:49 pm

I generally like a bit of brett but it depends on what kind....

Rotting meat, metallic, band aid..not a big fan......Meat, leather, a bit of barnyard..pooey is ok....too pooey is maybe a bit much for me. I like it when it adds a bit of complexity and interest...but I don't like when it dominates a wine...

I do think most wine drinkers dislike brett..at least as far as they want a clean, ripe, "smooth" (I hate that description but if people know why they'll know why I used it). Nothing wrong with a very clean wine...they're very good...but unless they're exceptional, they can just get a bit boring...

TiggerK · Post by **TiggerK** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:15 pm

Polymer wrote:I generally like a bit of brett but it depends on what kind....

Rotting meat, metallic, band aid..not a big fan......Meat, leather, a bit of barnyard..pooey is ok....too pooey is maybe a bit much for me. I like it when it adds a bit of complexity and interest...but I don't like when it dominates a wine...

I do think most wine drinkers dislike brett..at least as far as they want a clean, ripe, "smooth" (I hate that description but if people know why they'll know why I used it). Nothing wrong with a very clean wine...they're very good...but unless they're exceptional, they can just get a bit boring...

Couldn't agree more.

So many people saying 'I dislike all brett' on this thread. But it seems to me that what they mean is 'I hate all forms of what I think of as brett'. I.E Metallic, band aid, maybe poo or barnyard.

I would lay money on the fact that many of these people have enjoyed a wine that contained some brett, they just didn't associate that flavour as being in the brett spectrum because their brett spectrum is limited to the flavours in my previous sentence.

Yeah, it's just one study, but seems pretty well scientific to me. See anything nice on this wheel?? Woody, savoury, fruity, floal, spicy categories? I most certainly do, and in subtle amounts, those nice things gotta be a good things, who can argue with that? Here it is again! http://palatepress.com/2013/01/wine/revelations-about-brettanomyces-in-wine/brett-aroma-wheel/

Cheers
Tim

odyssey · Post by **odyssey** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:12 pm

I'm also in the pro-leathery, meaty category, especially in old school Hunter Valley Shiraz, some old Vic Shiraz, and southern Rhone, and particularly find they compliment slightly lower alcohol and/or savoury styles.

pstarr · Post by **pstarr** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:39 pm

TiggerK wrote:
Polymer wrote:I generally like a bit of brett but it depends on what kind....

Rotting meat, metallic, band aid..not a big fan......Meat, leather, a bit of barnyard..pooey is ok....too pooey is maybe a bit much for me. I like it when it adds a bit of complexity and interest...but I don't like when it dominates a wine...

I do think most wine drinkers dislike brett..at least as far as they want a clean, ripe, "smooth" (I hate that description but if people know why they'll know why I used it). Nothing wrong with a very clean wine...they're very good...but unless they're exceptional, they can just get a bit boring...

Couldn't agree more.

So many people saying 'I dislike all brett' on this thread. But it seems to me that what they mean is 'I hate all forms of what I think of as brett'. I.E Metallic, band aid, maybe poo or barnyard.

I would lay money on the fact that many of these people have enjoyed a wine that contained some brett, they just didn't associate that flavour as being in the brett spectrum because their brett spectrum is limited to the flavours in my previous sentence.

Yeah, it's just one study, but seems pretty well scientific to me. See anything nice on this wheel?? Woody, savoury, fruity, floal, spicy categories? I most certainly do, and in subtle amounts, those nice things gotta be a good things, who can argue with that? Here it is again! http://palatepress.com/2013/01/wine/revelations-about-brettanomyces-in-wine/brett-aroma-wheel/

Cheers
Tim

There is also the issue that brett can strip fruit character. Not just about what it 'adds' to wines and whether you like those things or not.

The Auswine Forum

Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?

Re: Brett - Yes, No, Good, Bad?