Cork vs Screwcap - Any Recent Comparisons?

[Chuck]

Reading a JH review today were the following comments that made me laugh "the cork a tribute to the flat earth American market". While in Hawaii and UK over the past year I was surprised to see cork as the predominant seal with some wine merchants defiantly displaying less than flattering signs on screwcap. It's been a long time since I've seen anything comparing the same wine under cork and stelvin and given it's been a while since stelvin came into widespread use in OZ I'd be interested in any recent comparisons. My only wine for comparison - 2005 Moss Wood Cabernet - is still way too young to open. All I can say on the subject is that with stelvin I know exactly how a wine will taste. The world is indeed round.

Carl

[Polymer]

Indeed the US market and Chinese market love corks...and the perception is that screwcaps are only on cheaper wine....

You can sort of see where this comes from though...Nearly every single expensive wine you see out there is under cork. That doesn't mean screwcap means it is cheap but nearly every expensive wine is under cork so some people have that perception. Wineries aren't sure what screwcap will do after 30, 40, 50+ years...Grange is still under cork..in Australia. You still have most of the Old World under cork...They know how it'll age, they know the risks...and while I believe the major players are all testing alternatives closures, I don't see a mass change to screwcap for quite awhile....I actually see the Ardea Seal being a more likely long term replacement with some players already using it...It also looks like a cork (although a Coravin won't work on it I don't think) and it looks like a quality insert unlike the cheap junky synthetics you might see on a cheap wine...I think it'll be easier for people to accept...

I am a screwcap fan btw..

[Chuck]

It's creeping in to the high end OZ market including Penfolds St Henri. From Ian's TNs of the recent Penfolds release only Grange, 707, and Magill Estate are under cork.

A hypothetical I keep banging on about. If wine was invented today and they asked for ideas on closures what would the reaction to the suggestion of bark of a tree?

[Polymer]

Hill of Grace is already on an alternative closure as well...No point in bringing up Australian Wines...I think most people in Australia are convinced the wine will age fine (as am I). There are some exceptions though..Rusden and Rockford for example...

If wine was invented today, I doubt they'd use cork..but no one would know how it would age..we probably wouldn't intend on aging it at first...and there is no saying we'd pick a closure that would allow for aging....I would guess they'd pick a closure that allows no oxygen at all in...would it still age fine? Maybe...I'm still not sure we know exactly why/how wine ages....I've seen arguments from both sides.

I do know, that if given a choice with what we know now..lets say cork magically disappeared from the planet....I'd pick something that performs just like very good corks as far as oxygen ingress but without the variability (and without the potential for TCA).

[Mick 1955]

The Old World/New World attitudes can be interesting. My wife and I were in Burgundy in September. During a tasting at Joseph Drouhin (name dropping !) we raised the Cork v. Screwcap debate and the “polite” response was along the lines that Screwcaps were not to be taken seriously. The day before at a little caveaux in Puligny we raised the same subject and they were even more derisive declaring that screwcaps were for “Vin Ordinaires” only.

Cheers
Mick

[Mahmoud Ali]

Reading a JH review today were the following comments that made me laugh "the cork a tribute to the flat earth American market".

I presume JH is James Halliday - is he relevant anymore? The continued use of cork is not entirely due to the US market. Many people are not convinced that screw cap is preferable to cork. For my own part I have no problem with screw caps and I think they are fine for most white wines and plenty of cheaper reds. But if push came to shove and I had to choose between a quality wine under cork or screw cap to be frank I'd choose cork. At the third bottle I'd try a screw cap.

Sometimes I wonder, flat earth or blind prejudice...........

Mahmoud.

[rossmckay]

I don't think I've ever seen a a blind comparative tasting (where the same wine was bottled under different closures) where the consensus was that the screw cap was preferable. If wine makers wanted to change seals they could change public opinion in a couple of years. Advocates for cork argue that the incidence of cork artefacts in wine is much less than in times gone by. One can only come to the conclusion that most of the world prefers the taste of wine under cork.

Most of the non-Australian wine I drink is under cork, most of the Australian is under screw cap. To eschew cork sealed wines would mean that I miss out on the vinous wonders that the world has to offer. I enjoy both and do not hesitate to buy either.

This is not to downplay the fact that many people, including me, have had problems with cork sealed wines, especially older wines. The 90% of people who drink the wine within a couple of days of purchase, probably less so.

[Dave Dewhurst]

About a year ago, I had the Petaluma Riesling 2002 under both cork and screwcap side by side. The cork version was a golden yellow, with lovely honey toasty notes, rounded acidity and very long. The screwcap version was lighter in colour (although definitely darker than the usual very pale young Rieslings), was developing those toasty notes but still had a dash of citrus and the acidity was a little more cleansing and refreshing. To me, it seemed the screwcap was perhaps just at an earlier stage of development but going the same way. I slightly preferred the screwcap version but both were very tasty in their own way.

Cheers

Dave

[Polymer]

I don't think I've ever seen a a blind comparative tasting (where the same wine was bottled under different closures) where the consensus was that the screw cap was preferable. If wine makers wanted to change seals they could change public opinion in a couple of years. Advocates for cork argue that the incidence of cork artefacts in wine is much less than in times gone by. One can only come to the conclusion that most of the world prefers the taste of wine under cork.

One can ONLY come to that conclusion? I'm not seeing a lot of people say they prefer the taste of wine under cork..I have seen some...I've seen some "blind" studies where it was preferred...I've seen some where the results were mixed..I've seen some where screwcap was preferred...

Your conclusion is as flawed as the Chinese and American consumers that think screwcaps are only for cheap wines...Thinking wines under cork mean people prefer the taste of wine under cork is not a proper conclusion...The observation of cork does not mean either of those two conclusions...

The reason I've seen quoted many many times by many different winemakers all over the world is that no one really knows what screwcapped wines will do over the long long term. They don't know if they will evolve properly because really, very little is understood how wines age...the only thing you would feel safe with then is a closure that will act the same as a very good cork but without the variability and potential for TCA.

[TiggerK]

Thanks Polymer, Ross's conclusion needed that exact reply.

Screwcaps aren't just one identical closure either, varying types with differing permeabilities and quality levels too. Corks can age wine nicely, as does screwcap, the main difference is that screwcap is so much more predictable. And that's what winemakers want and what consumers actually want, even if they don't like the stigma of screwcap. I can't provide immediate evidence, but I have certainly read various side by side comparisons where the screwcap had aged more slowly, but had still aged nicely. Some friends have talked about a Pewsey Vale Riesling 1979 they have enjoyed a bottle or two of under screwcap, which is aging magnificently and consistently. If only all my wines under corks could do the same, but I know around 10% of them will not be worth the effort I have put into cellaring them just because of the flawed bit of bark jammed in the end.

Not that it would happen, but I wonder... DRC announces tomorrow that after 20 years of secret testing, they are changing all their wines to a quality stelvin because they are convinced their wines will age just as well as cork, and the 5-10% failure rate will be brought down to 0.3%. Soon after, Leroy and Rousseau follow suit. They say they don't care what the authorities say, their wines will speak for themselves and they are fed up with TCA and cork related customer complaints. A total dream I know, but would people stop buying the wines, or would it start convincing the world that maybe screwcaps are not just for vin ordinaire and many others would follow suit?

Sadly, I doubt we'll see much of the Old World change much away from corks in our lifetime, such a pity. Happily some Old World bottlings heading for OZ are under screwcap, thanks importers!!

Lets just hope s**on br*wn doesn't show up. (berserkers joke)

[maybs]

It's a good point Tim. I'd like to see what happens if/when a major chateau switches. I can only hope it is DRC and that it scares most of the buyers off. I might actually be able to afford a few then!

It's true we know what we will get with cork. Wines that develop as we know they will and always have. Including seepage, oxidisation and good old TCA. Predictable, including in their failure and variability.

In the mean time producers don't care what I think as there is plenty of demand for wine under cork, so there is not enough incentive for change except from those producers who are prepared to change to at least try and improve the strike rate for their customers.

[Polymer]

I think one other thing that contributes to the rate of adoption of something else is, they don't feel the hurt needing to replace bottles. Premoxed White Burgundy? Are people getting refunds? No...TCA? End users might (most people never do) get their money back from someone but is it coming back to the Chateau? No..

Australian wineries are probably some of the best if not the best at replacing wine that have been impacted by cork..and it is probably also one of the main reason they were so quick to adopt screwcap.

The only thing I like about cork is you can use a Coravin...which you can't use with a screwcap and I don't think you can use with an Ardea Seal..

[rossmckay]

I don't think I've ever seen a a blind comparative tasting (where the same wine was bottled under different closures) where the consensus was that the screw cap was preferable. If wine makers wanted to change seals they could change public opinion in a couple of years. Advocates for cork argue that the incidence of cork artefacts in wine is much less than in times gone by. One can only come to the conclusion that most of the world prefers the taste of wine under cork.

One can ONLY come to that conclusion? I'm not seeing a lot of people say they prefer the taste of wine under cork..I have seen some...I've seen some "blind" studies where it was preferred...I've seen some where the results were mixed..I've seen some where screwcap was preferred...

Your conclusion is as flawed as the Chinese and American consumers that think screwcaps are only for cheap wines...Thinking wines under cork mean people prefer the taste of wine under cork is not a proper conclusion...The observation of cork does not mean either of those two conclusions...

The reason I've seen quoted many many times by many different winemakers all over the world is that no one really knows what screwcapped wines will do over the long long term. They don't know if they will evolve properly because really, very little is understood how wines age...the only thing you would feel safe with then is a closure that will act the same as a very good cork but without the variability and potential for TCA.

That's interesting. I'd love to read the comparative tastings you have read where the overall consensus was in favour of screw caps, can you point me towards them? No need to go to any trouble, two or three is heaps. Much appreciated.

BTW, the reference about people preferring the taste of wine under cork is directly related to the blind tastings in which people actually do prefer the taste of wine under cork.

[Redav]

I have certainly read various side by side comparisons where the screwcap had aged more slowly, but had still aged nicely.

It it were possible for perception of cork signifying it's a quality wine aside, I'd have thought that slower ageing would have been desirable. It might mean waiting longer for a particular bottle to get somewhere but surely that's not entirely a bad thing?

Mow many wineries of note are offering more than cork for the same wine? I've not looked however I think I noticed that Penfolds have done that with their St Henri?

[Diddy]

The Old World/New World attitudes can be interesting. My wife and I were in Burgundy in September. During a tasting at Joseph Drouhin (name dropping !) we raised the Cork v. Screwcap debate and the “polite” response was along the lines that Screwcaps were not to be taken seriously. The day before at a little caveaux in Puligny we raised the same subject and they were even more derisive declaring that screwcaps were for “Vin Ordinaires” only.

Cheers
Mick

I encountered the same attitude while traveling through the Napa Valley recently.

[felixp]

There are seal-failures with screw-caps, due to poor handling after bottling, but these are so rare that I doubt they should even be considered.
There are also failures in the sealing process, again very rare.
I have had an "off" bottle of Leeuwin Estate Chardonnay 2006 under screw-cap. No idea what caused it, as it was from a case where the others have been perfect (only about 2 to go)
I do not think the French are actually saying there is anything wrong with screw cap at this stage. But I suggest they have been bottling wine with corks for hundreds of years, and are there-fore wisely waiting until a full ageing cycle has occurred (let's say, 45 years for Bordeaux) before they make their judgement. If screw-cap turns out to age wine as well as we hope, I would be confident that the French will change to use it. I would think many of the major Chateaux have already small experimental batches of screw-cap to see how it fares.

[Polymer]

That's interesting. I'd love to read the comparative tastings you have read where the overall consensus was in favour of screw caps, can you point me towards them? No need to go to any trouble, two or three is heaps. Much appreciated.

BTW, the reference about people preferring the taste of wine under cork is directly related to the blind tastings in which people actually do prefer the taste of wine under cork.

Here's one...but you can research it yourself.
http://www.brokenwood.com.au/About-Us/Screw-Cap/

Screwcaps aren't all the same either..they're variable as far as ingress...and I think a key piece of completing that puzzle is figuring out what the ingress should be. I've seen some people say they're completely airtight..that doesn't seem to be correct from everything I've read.

Now, if your claim is the liner does damage to the wine or makes it taste funny..that's possible I suppose although so far there is no data on that...but it is probably one reason why I would prefer something completely inert like an Ardea...

I do not think the French are actually saying there is anything wrong with screw cap at this stage. But I suggest they have been bottling wine with corks for hundreds of years, and are there-fore wisely waiting until a full ageing cycle has occurred (let's say, 45 years for Bordeaux) before they make their judgement. If screw-cap turns out to age wine as well as we hope, I would be confident that the French will change to use it. I would think many of the major Chateaux have already small experimental batches of screw-cap to see how it fares.

That matches with everything I've read and discussed with people overseas...Most of them are experimenting but there is no rush to change because the risk to their business is too high. We will have a better idea down the line and I'm sure when a better alternative comes out with a predictable outcome, that'll be what they use..

It it were possible for perception of cork signifying it's a quality wine aside, I'd have thought that slower ageing would have been desirable. It might mean waiting longer for a particular bottle to get somewhere but surely that's not entirely a bad thing?

I don't think most people want wine to age slower...I think if anything, you want it to age faster (but in a proper way). If you could create a machine that would REALLY age a wine quickly where it aged as if it were under normal time..you'd be very rich...

[TiggerK]

That's interesting. I'd love to read the comparative tastings you have read where the overall consensus was in favour of screw caps, can you point me towards them?

Quality study in favour of screwcap.

https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=13650


Good info from an aussie screwcap convert

http://eldridge-estate.com.au/screw-caps


Showing that people can prefer the same wine under cork compared to SC, but really just because this particular cork (or batch of corks) had a higher permeability to oxygen, therefore gave the wine more 'aged' characters. (or more 'premature' aged characters, depending on your opinion or bias.)

http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=news&content=138398

Cork haters gonna hate, likewise screwcap haters. When I get a lovely aged wine under cork, I'm happy, but not because it's under cork....

[rossmckay]

That's interesting. I'd love to read the comparative tastings you have read where the overall consensus was in favour of screw caps, can you point me towards them?

Quality study in favour of screwcap.

https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=13650


Good info from an aussie screwcap convert

http://eldridge-estate.com.au/screw-caps


Showing that people can prefer the same wine under cork compared to SC, but really just because this particular cork (or batch of corks) had a higher permeability to oxygen, therefore gave the wine more 'aged' characters. (or more 'premature' aged characters, depending on your opinion or bias.)

http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=news&content=138398

Cork haters gonna hate, likewise screwcap haters. When I get a lovely aged wine under cork, I'm happy, but not because it's under cork....

Well, there you go, that US example is the only tasting I've ever seen where the same wine was tasted blind and the consensus view was in favour of the screw cap. Of course the other two examples aren't blind tastings so that's more opinions on superiority of the effectiveness of one type of closure over another.

Me, I think that beliefs are nothing to be proud of so I have no position on the taste superiority of X over Y type of closure. I have read every comparative tasting write up I've come across and notwithstanding that Plumpjack write-up, have no reason to change my earlier contention that the evidence points to people preferring the taste of cork over screw caps. I was quite surprised at the results as I expected the opposite but if one ignores evidence in favour of staunchly held beliefs then I might as well be a politician.

Effectiveness of seal is a completely different thing of course and all the evidence does seem to point to screw cap being better in that respect.

[paulf]

Lets just hope s**on br*wn doesn't show up. (berserkers joke)

Yes I saw that. That thread turned into a debacle pretty quickly.

I was at a riesling tasting last weekend and most of the German Rieslings were under screwcap. The importer did say that some are done for our market, which always surprises me as I wouldn't have thought that Australia (and probably NZ) would be a big enough market to warrant doing a different closure. I also got the feeling that some were bottled under screwcap for other parts of the world as well. I'll bet that there are plenty of German wineries doing trials right now and I think they are the most likely to come around to screwcap in the near future.

[Redav]

I don't think most people want wine to age slower...I think if anything, you want it to age faster (but in a proper way).

Possibly. What if it gave a longer drinking window at its peak?

If you could create a machine that would REALLY age a wine quickly where it aged as if it were under normal time..you'd be very rich...

Probably. There was a Kickstarter where some whisky aficionado's were offering the ability to age new whisky overnight and you had some control over its flavour.

[Polymer]

I was at a riesling tasting last weekend and most of the German Rieslings were under screwcap. The importer did say that some are done for our market, which always surprises me as I wouldn't have thought that Australia (and probably NZ) would be a big enough market to warrant doing a different closure. I also got the feeling that some were bottled under screwcap for other parts of the world as well. I'll bet that there are plenty of German wineries doing trials right now and I think they are the most likely to come around to screwcap in the near future.

Do you recall which ones? I've seen a few German rieslings under screwcap but most I still see under cork. Not really buying them locally so I guess that could be one reason. Would love to get them under screwcap though..

Me, I think that beliefs are nothing to be proud of so I have no position on the taste superiority of X over Y type of closure. I have read every comparative tasting write up I've come across and notwithstanding that Plumpjack write-up, have no reason to change my earlier contention that the evidence points to people preferring the taste of cork over screw caps. I was quite surprised at the results as I expected the opposite but if one ignores evidence in favour of staunchly held beliefs then I might as well be a politician.

As I've said..I've seen many of these...in a lot of cases, they're very inconclusive. Here's something to consider..If you feel there is only ONE conclusion, as in the evidence can only lead to one conclusion, then wouldn't these places have stopped their trials? Why bother going forward right? That isn't the case...So certainly they haven't come to a conclusion.

Possibly. What if it gave a longer drinking window at its peak?

Given that most people drink their wine soon after buying it...It isn't a major concern. As far as keeping wine...It would just mean you'd drink it earlier...Do I really want to age certain bottles for 10+ years? Or think they'll be great in 20+ years? I really don't...I doubt that is the plan for most people. If I knew I'd get the exact same experience in less time, I'd want it in less time.

I understand where you're going though...but if a closure were to slow the development of wine even further, there are some wines a lot of people would just never get to drink at their peak unless they bought it off of someone else that bought it at release or it was inherited from someone..

[rossmckay]

Me, I think that beliefs are nothing to be proud of so I have no position on the taste superiority of X over Y type of closure. I have read every comparative tasting write up I've come across and notwithstanding that Plumpjack write-up, have no reason to change my earlier contention that the evidence points to people preferring the taste of cork over screw caps. I was quite surprised at the results as I expected the opposite but if one ignores evidence in favour of staunchly held beliefs then I might as well be a politician.

As I've said..I've seen many of these...in a lot of cases, they're very inconclusive. Here's something to consider..If you feel there is only ONE conclusion, as in the evidence can only lead to one conclusion, then wouldn't these places have stopped their trials? Why bother going forward right? That isn't the case...So certainly they haven't come to a conclusion.

.

Yep, sure thing. That's a pretty illogical conclusion you've come up with there but I'm sure you think you are right.

However, arguing on the internet is just plain stupid so I'm out of here.

[Polymer]

You're right man...They're still trialing screwcaps and other alternatives because they'd want to pick a closure where the wine wouldn't taste better all to save that 5% of the wine that is bad because of corks...

Or maybe I should restate my opinion...They'd have stopped trialing screwcaps if wines under cork were tasting better than ones under screwcap...Is that an illogical conclusion? I'd like to understand why...

[ticklenow1]

Halliday did a comparison with some Rieslings a while back in his rag, sorry magazine. From memory it was a convincing win for the screw caps. But to be honest, I've always championed screw caps but I'm still not totally convinced. It's a good debate and there doesn't always need to be a winner.....

Cheers
Ian

[felixp]

I would love to sit down in 2040 and have a blind tasting of the top 20 Bordeaux houses in 2010 ( let's say Latour, Lafite, Mouton, Haut Brion, Margaux, Petrus, Ausone, Le Pin, Cheval Blanc, La Mission, Lafleur, Eglise Clinet, VCC, Montrose, Las Cases, Conseillante, Trotanoy, Angelus, Ducru Beaucaillou and Cos) with one bottle from cork and the other from screw cap. I think then you really would have a definitive study, given all have been cellared side-by-side in ideal conditions. Until then, silly articles like the one Halliday put up are totally meaningless.

Currently, screw-cap is ideal as a closure for wines that will be consumed upon purchase (which is over 90% anyway) because there is an extremely low incidence of dud bottles, and it is so easy to open, but any argument that it ages wine "better" has little scientific proof at this early stage of it's development.

Personally, I think screw-cap closure is great, but then again, I do not have a billion dollars a year totally depending upon a closure that no-one has seen in a premium bottle 30 years old.

[paulf]

I was at a riesling tasting last weekend and most of the German Rieslings were under screwcap. The importer did say that some are done for our market, which always surprises me as I wouldn't have thought that Australia (and probably NZ) would be a big enough market to warrant doing a different closure. I also got the feeling that some were bottled under screwcap for other parts of the world as well. I'll bet that there are plenty of German wineries doing trials right now and I think they are the most likely to come around to screwcap in the near future.

Do you recall which ones? I've seen a few German rieslings under screwcap but most I still see under cork. Not really buying them locally so I guess that could be one reason. Would love to get them under screwcap though..

It was most of the German Riesling that Cellarhand had available.
At the tasting they had Dr Loosen Dr L 2013, Gunderloch Fritz's 2012, Wittman Estate 2013, Villa Wolf Wachenheirmer 2012, Christmann Estate, Koehler-Ruprect Kallstadter Kabinett Trocken 2012, Donnhoff Estate 2013, Heymann-Lowenstien Schieferterrassen 2012. Most, but not all were in screw cap if I remember correctly but I'm no expert on German Riesling so I have trouble matching the names to the labels.
None of it is really high end stuff, but there were some nice wines among them. I preferred the Wittman (which I am fairly certain was under screwcap), and the Donnhoff (which I'm not sure about).

Bibendum had the Von Buhl, which I didn't try but that has been in screw cap in the past.

[rossmckay]

You're right man...They're still trialing screwcaps and other alternatives because they'd want to pick a closure where the wine wouldn't taste better all to save that 5% of the wine that is bad because of corks...

Or maybe I should restate my opinion...They'd have stopped trialing screwcaps if wines under cork were tasting better than ones under screwcap...Is that an illogical conclusion? I'd like to understand why...

With all due respect, you seem to be caught up in semantics and perhaps my first hypothesis could have been put better. The concept of my original statement was in reference to comparative tastings and in the places where corks are the seal of choice, blind tastings (almost) exclusively favour cork sealed wines. There could be a number of reasons for this but it is entirely reasonable and logical that wine drinkers may prefer the taste of wines that are sealed under cork over screw cap.

The tastings I am referring to are where people don't have a commercial interest or may be looking to justify a business decision.

I am not advocating any type of seal and can easily take any side of this debate. I have noticed though, that there are some who seem to take a position bordering on religious dogma i.e. a belief system and for whom no amount of evidence will allow them to concede that others have a point. Which brings us neatly back to arguing on the internet.

[maybs]

I don't see why it is semantics when your first post said there was only one conclusion available, you then suggest that no studies as referred to exist (with a heavy dose of sarcasm?) and one is then produced. Particularly when you accept that your first post was worded poorly (ie was wrong).

However I fully embrace your disavowal of arguing o the Internet. So I am going go go have a cold shower (thanks blackout), fly to Hong Kong and buy some wine. Probably under cork, because all the good wines are.

[rossmckay]

I don't see why it is semantics when your first post said there was only one conclusion available, you then suggest that no studies as referred to exist (with a heavy dose of sarcasm?) and one is then produced. Particularly when you accept that your first post was worded poorly (ie was wrong).

However I fully embrace your disavowal of arguing o the Internet. So I am going go go have a cold shower (thanks blackout), fly to Hong Kong and buy some wine. Probably under cork, because all the good wines are.

I'll take that as a statement