Thanks, its been really interesting.I still have 04 and 05 Langi waiting, as well as 02 and 04 Seppelt St Peters.
Some wines just demand time, if opened they are just shut and reveal nothing.
Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Ozzie, you started all this. Thanks, its been really interesting.
I still have 04 and 05 Langi waiting, as well as 02 and 04 Seppelt St Peters.
Some wines just demand time, if opened they are just shut and reveal nothing.
Thanks, its been really interesting.I still have 04 and 05 Langi waiting, as well as 02 and 04 Seppelt St Peters.
Some wines just demand time, if opened they are just shut and reveal nothing.
When not drinking a fine red, I'm a cardboard claret man!
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
I thought I'd post an update as there has been some huge news for me on the aged wine front. I had an opportunity to purchase some aged reds from Best's Great Western. I've had a couple bottles over the past 2 weeks which have been the epiphany I've been seeking.
First one was a 1992 Best's Pinot Meunier. This was full of vibrant strawberry and cherry. Long and smooth finish. I couldn't believe this was 22 years old.
Second one was a 1992 Best's Bin 0. This was just fabulous. It had the full fruit profile of a young Bin 0 with blackberry and plum, but with something extra. It had transformed into something truly amazing. Wow!
So in conclusion, I do like aged wines - I was just drinking the wrong aged wines. Thanks once again for everyone's comments and advice. Let the journey continue!
First one was a 1992 Best's Pinot Meunier. This was full of vibrant strawberry and cherry. Long and smooth finish. I couldn't believe this was 22 years old.
Second one was a 1992 Best's Bin 0. This was just fabulous. It had the full fruit profile of a young Bin 0 with blackberry and plum, but with something extra. It had transformed into something truly amazing. Wow!
So in conclusion, I do like aged wines - I was just drinking the wrong aged wines. Thanks once again for everyone's comments and advice. Let the journey continue!
-
Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Hi Ozzie,
I read this post a while ago and wasn't sure when or where to step in so I didn't post. There were so many different issues to address I didn't know where to start. Today, while looking for something in the search engine, I stumbled upon it once again and read the last few posts. I see that you have had an epiphany and found some older wines you liked. Now I feel ready to saying something.
My first inclination, when I first read your post, was to say that the wines you first considered old were not old at all and hence it was incorrect for you to say you were drinking the "wrong" wines. Wines take time to age and mature and each wine has a different timeline - I think a few posters alluded to that. Five to ten years does not make a wine old - they may have a few years under their belt but they are not old. The reason you may have not liked these so-called old wines is because they weren't old at all but rather in a dumb phase. The dumb phase refers to the transition between youth and maturity. It where youthful exuberance of primary fruit gives way but the mature character of ripe fruit and tertiary notes have yet to show itself. Hence the wine seems dumb or muted, nothing of significance has replaced the fruit so all you get is an attenuated wine. What is really required is more time - or patience.
As for the issue of "the right wine" I'm not sure what is meant by it except that an unbalanced or simple wine without the requisite fruit, structure, and tannin, is the wrong wine to age. Among the wines that do age the question is for how long. Some wines will age a few years, others require a bit longer, while some will need a whole lot more. It all has to do with the depth of fruit (not to be confused with fruitiness), structure, tannin, and the balance between them. The more there is of everything the longer the wine will last. I've had a experience with two Australian wines that represent what I might call opposites - too much tannins vs too much fruit.
The '82 Tahbilk (Chateau Tahbilk back then) was extraordinarily tannic when I tasted it in its youth - purple, intense, and mouth puckeringly dry from all the tannins but it had a deep seated intensity borne of fruit so I bought quite a number of bottles to cellar. The label suggest cellaring the wine for 8-10 years so that's when I started drinking them, a bottle every year or so, and much to my dismay I found them tannic and dry and devoid of fruit. I thought to myself "Well, there you have it, a wine without sufficient fruit to support the tannins and now the wine is dead and gone." This continued till about when the wine was 20 years-old when suddenly, supposedly out of nowhere, the wine softened and ripe fruit appeared - it was lovely. Now I'm not saying that all Tahbilk Cabernets will do the same as today much of the fruit ends up in the premium lines.
I had the opposite experience with the 1990 Eileen Hardy Shiraz. When it was young I thought it was delicious, plenty of intense but vibrant fruit as well as structure and ripe tannins - I thought it was a wine with potential so a few bottles went into the cellar. When it was about a dozen years old I opened a bottle and found it to be almost cloying, sweet fruit and little in the way of structure and finish - there appeared to be no tannins. Again, I thought I had made a mistake in cellaring the wine. Fast forward another decade, to about a couple of years ago, and a friend of mine served me a bottle. I found this wine to be much better, that the fruit was not so sweet, that it had developed some signs of tertiary ripe flavours, and that the wine was no longer flabby. I now believe that there is hope for this wine and look forward to trying another one when it is 25 years-old. I now believe that good Australin Shirazes do age - give it the time.
I also want to say something about vintages. Like other people I too used to swear by vintage charts but, over the years, I have come to understand that they do not mean all that much. A reputable producer will make a good wine regardless of the vintage. The only difference is that in terms of aging it will mature sooner than the bigger vintages. A 1989 Koonunga Hill, from a relatively weak vintage was delightful when almost 15 years old. But a 1996 Koonunga Hill, from a fabulous vintage and at almost the same age was still young and reserved. Do consider buying the so-called off vintages, if they're wines by top producers you can be assured of quality, the only difference being that the wines will have a different but shorter aging profile.
As a final note I must say I have enjoyed people's posts and in particular your epiphany. What I want to emphasize to you is to note that your appreciation of old wines started with the oldest wines you tasted. I think that is something worth considering.
Welcome to the addiction, your cellar will never be same.
Cheers..........................Mahmoud.
I read this post a while ago and wasn't sure when or where to step in so I didn't post. There were so many different issues to address I didn't know where to start. Today, while looking for something in the search engine, I stumbled upon it once again and read the last few posts. I see that you have had an epiphany and found some older wines you liked. Now I feel ready to saying something.
My first inclination, when I first read your post, was to say that the wines you first considered old were not old at all and hence it was incorrect for you to say you were drinking the "wrong" wines. Wines take time to age and mature and each wine has a different timeline - I think a few posters alluded to that. Five to ten years does not make a wine old - they may have a few years under their belt but they are not old. The reason you may have not liked these so-called old wines is because they weren't old at all but rather in a dumb phase. The dumb phase refers to the transition between youth and maturity. It where youthful exuberance of primary fruit gives way but the mature character of ripe fruit and tertiary notes have yet to show itself. Hence the wine seems dumb or muted, nothing of significance has replaced the fruit so all you get is an attenuated wine. What is really required is more time - or patience.
As for the issue of "the right wine" I'm not sure what is meant by it except that an unbalanced or simple wine without the requisite fruit, structure, and tannin, is the wrong wine to age. Among the wines that do age the question is for how long. Some wines will age a few years, others require a bit longer, while some will need a whole lot more. It all has to do with the depth of fruit (not to be confused with fruitiness), structure, tannin, and the balance between them. The more there is of everything the longer the wine will last. I've had a experience with two Australian wines that represent what I might call opposites - too much tannins vs too much fruit.
The '82 Tahbilk (Chateau Tahbilk back then) was extraordinarily tannic when I tasted it in its youth - purple, intense, and mouth puckeringly dry from all the tannins but it had a deep seated intensity borne of fruit so I bought quite a number of bottles to cellar. The label suggest cellaring the wine for 8-10 years so that's when I started drinking them, a bottle every year or so, and much to my dismay I found them tannic and dry and devoid of fruit. I thought to myself "Well, there you have it, a wine without sufficient fruit to support the tannins and now the wine is dead and gone." This continued till about when the wine was 20 years-old when suddenly, supposedly out of nowhere, the wine softened and ripe fruit appeared - it was lovely. Now I'm not saying that all Tahbilk Cabernets will do the same as today much of the fruit ends up in the premium lines.
I had the opposite experience with the 1990 Eileen Hardy Shiraz. When it was young I thought it was delicious, plenty of intense but vibrant fruit as well as structure and ripe tannins - I thought it was a wine with potential so a few bottles went into the cellar. When it was about a dozen years old I opened a bottle and found it to be almost cloying, sweet fruit and little in the way of structure and finish - there appeared to be no tannins. Again, I thought I had made a mistake in cellaring the wine. Fast forward another decade, to about a couple of years ago, and a friend of mine served me a bottle. I found this wine to be much better, that the fruit was not so sweet, that it had developed some signs of tertiary ripe flavours, and that the wine was no longer flabby. I now believe that there is hope for this wine and look forward to trying another one when it is 25 years-old. I now believe that good Australin Shirazes do age - give it the time.
I also want to say something about vintages. Like other people I too used to swear by vintage charts but, over the years, I have come to understand that they do not mean all that much. A reputable producer will make a good wine regardless of the vintage. The only difference is that in terms of aging it will mature sooner than the bigger vintages. A 1989 Koonunga Hill, from a relatively weak vintage was delightful when almost 15 years old. But a 1996 Koonunga Hill, from a fabulous vintage and at almost the same age was still young and reserved. Do consider buying the so-called off vintages, if they're wines by top producers you can be assured of quality, the only difference being that the wines will have a different but shorter aging profile.
As a final note I must say I have enjoyed people's posts and in particular your epiphany. What I want to emphasize to you is to note that your appreciation of old wines started with the oldest wines you tasted. I think that is something worth considering.
Welcome to the addiction, your cellar will never be same.
Cheers..........................Mahmoud.
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Waiters Friend
- Posts: 2784
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 4:09 am
- Location: Perth WA
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Mahmoud, I must compliment you on your post. I could not have said i better, and with such oratory and logic. Excellent work, and a good read for all of us.
Cheers
Allan
Cheers
Allan
Wine, women and song. Ideally, you can experience all three at once.
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Thanks so much Mahmoud. Your post was very insightful. I still have so much more to learn and experience.
My cellar is starting to take shape. I'm putting lots of wines in there that I think will age well, but it'll be many, many years before I reap the rewards of my patience. I've got a few cases of the same wines in there as well, so I plan to drink one a year to see how they age over time. So much to learn... if only I caught the wine bug in my early 20's instead of late 30's I'd have a ~15 year head-start on my cellar.
In the meantime, I just take every opportunity I can to try aged wines. At the last Melbourne Offline, I had 3 aged reds which I thoroughly enjoyed:
1996 Rosemount Balmoral McLaren Vale Syrah
1994 Bannockburn Geelong Shiraz
1991 Bests Great Western Pinot Meunier
Let the journey continue...
My cellar is starting to take shape. I'm putting lots of wines in there that I think will age well, but it'll be many, many years before I reap the rewards of my patience. I've got a few cases of the same wines in there as well, so I plan to drink one a year to see how they age over time. So much to learn... if only I caught the wine bug in my early 20's instead of late 30's I'd have a ~15 year head-start on my cellar.
In the meantime, I just take every opportunity I can to try aged wines. At the last Melbourne Offline, I had 3 aged reds which I thoroughly enjoyed:
1996 Rosemount Balmoral McLaren Vale Syrah
1994 Bannockburn Geelong Shiraz
1991 Bests Great Western Pinot Meunier
Let the journey continue...
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Mahmoud Ali wrote:Hi Ozzie,
I read this post a while ago and wasn't sure when or where to step in so I didn't post. There were so many different issues to address I didn't know where to start. Today, while looking for something in the search engine, I stumbled upon it once again and read the last few posts. I see that you have had an epiphany and found some older wines you liked. Now I feel ready to saying something.
My first inclination, when I first read your post, was to say that the wines you first considered old were not old at all and hence it was incorrect for you to say you were drinking the "wrong" wines. Wines take time to age and mature and each wine has a different timeline - I think a few posters alluded to that. Five to ten years does not make a wine old - they may have a few years under their belt but they are not old. The reason you may have not liked these so-called old wines is because they weren't old at all but rather in a dumb phase. The dumb phase refers to the transition between youth and maturity. It where youthful exuberance of primary fruit gives way but the mature character of ripe fruit and tertiary notes have yet to show itself. Hence the wine seems dumb or muted, nothing of significance has replaced the fruit so all you get is an attenuated wine. What is really required is more time - or patience.
As for the issue of "the right wine" I'm not sure what is meant by it except that an unbalanced or simple wine without the requisite fruit, structure, and tannin, is the wrong wine to age. Among the wines that do age the question is for how long. Some wines will age a few years, others require a bit longer, while some will need a whole lot more. It all has to do with the depth of fruit (not to be confused with fruitiness), structure, tannin, and the balance between them. The more there is of everything the longer the wine will last. I've had a experience with two Australian wines that represent what I might call opposites - too much tannins vs too much fruit.
The '82 Tahbilk (Chateau Tahbilk back then) was extraordinarily tannic when I tasted it in its youth - purple, intense, and mouth puckeringly dry from all the tannins but it had a deep seated intensity borne of fruit so I bought quite a number of bottles to cellar. The label suggest cellaring the wine for 8-10 years so that's when I started drinking them, a bottle every year or so, and much to my dismay I found them tannic and dry and devoid of fruit. I thought to myself "Well, there you have it, a wine without sufficient fruit to support the tannins and now the wine is dead and gone." This continued till about when the wine was 20 years-old when suddenly, supposedly out of nowhere, the wine softened and ripe fruit appeared - it was lovely. Now I'm not saying that all Tahbilk Cabernets will do the same as today much of the fruit ends up in the premium lines.
I had the opposite experience with the 1990 Eileen Hardy Shiraz. When it was young I thought it was delicious, plenty of intense but vibrant fruit as well as structure and ripe tannins - I thought it was a wine with potential so a few bottles went into the cellar. When it was about a dozen years old I opened a bottle and found it to be almost cloying, sweet fruit and little in the way of structure and finish - there appeared to be no tannins. Again, I thought I had made a mistake in cellaring the wine. Fast forward another decade, to about a couple of years ago, and a friend of mine served me a bottle. I found this wine to be much better, that the fruit was not so sweet, that it had developed some signs of tertiary ripe flavours, and that the wine was no longer flabby. I now believe that there is hope for this wine and look forward to trying another one when it is 25 years-old. I now believe that good Australin Shirazes do age - give it the time.
I also want to say something about vintages. Like other people I too used to swear by vintage charts but, over the years, I have come to understand that they do not mean all that much. A reputable producer will make a good wine regardless of the vintage. The only difference is that in terms of aging it will mature sooner than the bigger vintages. A 1989 Koonunga Hill, from a relatively weak vintage was delightful when almost 15 years old. But a 1996 Koonunga Hill, from a fabulous vintage and at almost the same age was still young and reserved. Do consider buying the so-called off vintages, if they're wines by top producers you can be assured of quality, the only difference being that the wines will have a different but shorter aging profile.
As a final note I must say I have enjoyed people's posts and in particular your epiphany. What I want to emphasize to you is to note that your appreciation of old wines started with the oldest wines you tasted. I think that is something worth considering.
Welcome to the addiction, your cellar will never be same.
Cheers..........................Mahmoud.
Perfect. Very well said Mahmoud.
Cheers
Peter Houghton
Peter Houghton
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
A very informative and articulate post Mahmoud. Thanks.. from a guy in a similar position to the OP – just figuring it all out.
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toofastdriving
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:04 pm
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Mahmoud Ali wrote:The '82 Tahbilk (Chateau Tahbilk back then) was extraordinarily tannic when I tasted it in its youth - purple, intense, and mouth puckeringly dry from all the tannins but it had a deep seated intensity borne of fruit so I bought quite a number of bottles to cellar. The label suggest cellaring the wine for 8-10 years so that's when I started drinking them, a bottle every year or so, and much to my dismay I found them tannic and dry and devoid of fruit. I thought to myself "Well, there you have it, a wine without sufficient fruit to support the tannins and now the wine is dead and gone." This continued till about when the wine was 20 years-old when suddenly, supposedly out of nowhere, the wine softened and ripe fruit appeared - it was lovely. Now I'm not saying that all Tahbilk Cabernets will do the same as today much of the fruit ends up in the premium lines.
Great post. My purchasing strategy has been to cellar 2-4 bottles of something I like and that I think will age, and up to 8 bottles for some things that are reasonably priced that might be ok to try and keep for longer to try at intervals (Best's Bin 1 for example). The problem I have is choosing which wines I take the punt and get extras of for this purpose, sadly I can't have dozens for everything I buy. Any thoughts on styles or regions that might show more in this 'experiment' - need to plan 20 years in advance
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
toofastdriving wrote:Great post. My purchasing strategy has been to cellar 2-4 bottles of something I like and that I think will age, and up to 8 bottles for some things that are reasonably priced that might be ok to try and keep for longer to try at intervals (Best's Bin 1 for example). The problem I have is choosing which wines I take the punt and get extras of for this purpose, sadly I can't have dozens for everything I buy. Any thoughts on styles or regions that might show more in this 'experiment' - need to plan 20 years in advance
I'm in a similar predicament to you. I'm buying 2-3 bottles of wines I like for cellaring with a just a few others in larger quantities to drink at yearly intervals to see how they develop. I'm hoping that by drinking at yearly intervals I'll learn how long I like my different styles of wines to be aged, so I'll know when to open the ones in smaller quantities. I'm also using the drinking windows on CellarTracker and The Wine Front as a guide.
Wines that I've got 6-12 bottles of are:
* 2013 S.C. Pannell Syrah Adelaide Hills
* 2013 Best's Great Western Shiraz Bin No 1
* 2012 Mount Langi Ghiran Shiraz Cliff Edge
* 2013 Mayford Tempranillo Porepunkah
I'm on a few mailing lists now so I'm planning to add some larger quantities (6-12) from Marius, Head and Standish with their next offerings.
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
Ozzie W wrote:* 2013 Mayford Tempranillo Porepunkah
A bit off topic, but I have been looking for these in single lots. Any ideas where I might get some? (I have checked Gavins site in case anyone objects)
Re: Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?
ads_11 wrote:Ozzie W wrote:* 2013 Mayford Tempranillo Porepunkah
A bit off topic, but I have been looking for these in single lots. Any ideas where I might get some? (I have checked Gavins site in case anyone objects)
PM Sent