Aged Red Wines - what am I doing wrong?

[Ozzie W]

Hi everyone,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm after some advice from formumites who have a lot more experience than I do. I love my young Aussie reds -- Shiraz, Cab Sav, Pinot, GSM, warm climate, cool climate, whatever. Been drinking good stuff regularly with a mate once a week for about 4 years now. I've been to a few large wine tastings -- most recent was the Langtons event and prior to that was the Royal Melbourne Wine Awards late last year. I believe I have a good appreciation for top quality Aussie reds and I enjoy them immensely. My current favourite is 2012 Standish The Standish and standouts from this year have been 2012 Head Redhead, 2012 Sami Odi Baby Tui, 2010 Wynns John Riddoch, 2012 Bests Bin 0, 2012 Ashton Hills Reserve Pinot to name just a few.

I haven't had a lot of aged red wines, but what I have had have been major disappointments. Reading the posts on this forum and also on WineFront I can see so many people getting enjoyment from aged red wines and I'm at a loss to explain why my experiences have been so unremarkable. I want to experience the enjoyment that others get from drinking aged red wine. So in 2012, after never having any aged red wines, I thought I'd discover what it's all about. I purchased a bottle of 1998 Wendouree Shiraz and also a 2000 Mount Mary Quintet from a very reputable specialty wine store. Both were disappointing. Instead of being vibrant like the young reds I enjoy, they were both very mellow. I couldn't taste much fruit and "bland" is the best word I can use to describe them. Corks were in good condition and both wines were decanted for a few hours prior to serving. The young Wendouree's at Langtons a couple months ago were excellent, so this is certainly a style I like. Never had any young Mount Mary, so I don't have anything to compare with.

In 2012 I also bought a case of mixed aged red wines from Tahbilk, ranging from 1998 to 2004. They were all disappointing. Some were completely undrinkable. Others had that same blandness of the Wendouree/Mount Mary. All the above aged wines were consumed together with my regular drinking mate who has exactly the same negative impressions that I do. We both believe in the potential that properly aging a wine can bring, but have yet to experience that epiphany moment. Prior to the last 4 years, I was drinking "supermarket" reds until my mate bought a bottle of Dutschke Oscar Semmler which was so much better than anything we had been drinking before. It was a game changer for both of us. We didn't realise how good Aussie red wine could be until then. I've yet to experience that game changing moment with aged red.

Last month I finally had a somewhat aged wine that gives me hope. I had a 2005 Kays Block 6 Shiraz (courtesy of Gavin). I really enjoyed that. But it didn't really taste any different to the young wines I usually drink. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the few years in the bottle enhanced this wine, although without doing a vertical with a more recent vintage I can't be sure.

So what's going on here? Have my mate and I just been unlucky and got a bunch of bad bottles? Are we drinking the wrong aged wines? Or perhaps we both just don't like aged wines?

Looking forward to reading everyone's comments on this topic.

[shy180]

Simply put there is nothing wrong with not liking older wines.
Your palette will evolve over time as you drink and taste more wines and more widely.
Drink what you like and you may find in time that some of the older wines make more sense.
Hope that helps

[maybs]

Yeah look, it seems to me there are plenty of people that do not like aged red wine. I am still in the early stages of working out what I like from an aged perspective, but I have already worked out that with some wines I prefer a medium aged wine that retains forward fruit, but has started to develop secondary characteristics, rather than a wine that has gone fully past the fruit stage. Some aged wines can age for a long time and retain strong fruit characteristics, but I guess you would mainly be looking at really premium wines there, that is part of what you are paying for, that longevity.

Keep trying new things and see how your palate develops, but you can't force it. I certainly know plenty of people who enjoy both young red and young whites who do not get the same enjoyment out of aged versions of the same/

[Duncan Disorderly]

Instead of jumping in to 10+ year old wines you could try and buy comparatively younger wines you like (retailer or auction) from three or four consecutive vintages such as 2006 - 2010s from the Barossa or 2007 - 2011 from Margaret River and compare them. Alternatively maybe look at buying a case or a half doz of what you currently like and drink one every year to follow the progression and see if you like it. By doing this you can set some reference points and may get a better idea of the differences in the flavour profile as the the wine progresses from primary to secondary characteristics.

Back vintages of Wynns, Tyrrell's, Penfolds, Mount Mary, Wendouree, Cullens and/or Cape Mentelle are relatively easy to find and there are more and more pinot producers like Farr with wines consistently available in the secondary market.

At the end of the day I'd also echo the comments made by shy180 and maybs, I've bought some aged wines I wish I'd got to many years earlier (or possibly not at all). It's trial and error I suppose.

[ufo]

Simply put there is nothing wrong with not liking older wines.
Your palette will evolve over time as you drink and taste more wines and more widely.
Drink what you like and you may find in time that some of the older wines make more sense.
Hope that helps

I'll second above.

[Ddavew]

I purchased a bottle of 1998 Wendouree Shiraz and also a 2000 Mount Mary Quintet from a very reputable specialty wine store. Both were disappointing.

not too sure about aged wines but lots of younger wines do shine on the next day after its opened on the night before, if this happens again in the future you might want to leave it untouch and try it again the next day

[Brucer]

Hi,
I think you have put up a very interesting post. I will make some comments and try and help you.
Your current favourites are pretty much what I am into, and I agree with you, apart from Pinot, which I dont like much.
The older wines you mention, are pretty much not very good, and wont give you much enjoyment, if you like those style younger wines.
Being an old wine does not mean its good, as you have found out.
1998 Wendouree is made in the old style that needs years, and even then, you have to be lucky to get a fantastic bottle.
2000 Mount Mary was from an average year, and far from the young shiraz, like Standish. I dont buy wines from Yarra, as I have found that they are not too my liking.
Bland is a good word for these wines.
Tahbilk is not my sort of wine either. I find them lacking interest.
I think you just chose the wrong aged wines to drink.
Now, with the Dutschke you are getting on the right track. I have drunk more then a doz 2008 Oscar Semmlars, and they are brilliant. Wayne makes great wines, in my style.
The Kays is really the wrong wine for you as well. It is like Wendouree, but from McLaren Vale. They need years to come together, but they, like McLaren Vale are more spicy then Barossa.
Barossa has that richness, and chocolate that I like.
Great aged wines are hard to come by. I buy a lot of wine, and drink a lot of it in the 5-10 years from vintage. I also sell a lot of wine at Langtons that does not age well.
I am currently drinking 2004 and 2005s, as well as many 2008s. They are all drinking well now.
I am basically talking about Barossa and McLaren Vale shiraz here.
Its bloody hard to drink great wine, as many dont age as well as I think they would have, but when I open one, and its great, I just drink them.
Its hard to figure out how wines will age.
I tend to follow shows and wine writers.
The 2012 Standish is amazing, as is the 2003, which I still am drinking and rave about. Rockford Basket Press shiraz is old school and needs 10 years, but is a masterpiece.
I have been buying Sami Odi since 2008.
Then there is the cork problems associated with aged wines. But dont be put off.
Penfolds age really well. St Henri, RWT, 389 and 28 can all be very good after a few years.
cheers
Bruce

[Polymer]

I don't think he chose the wrong wines to drink...I think he doesn't like aged wine at this stage...

Whatever you like to drink is what you like to drink....There isn't a right or wrong answer there...Some people's palates change and if they started off not liking aged wine..they will..some people their palates will never change...and some people start off liking aged wine...

And by aged...that means many different things to many different people...For some, softening of the tannins and some secondary characters but still retaining that fruit is about as old as they'll want..for others it is when the fruit is way in the background if not almost gone and all of the tertiary characters start showing....with everything above and beyond all that and everything between...Different people will prefer different things...

My personal advice is buy what you like to drink...try not to buy too much of any one thing...try as many different things as you can even if that isn't the style of wine you like...

[catchnrelease]

I don't think he chose the wrong wines to drink...I think he doesn't like aged wine at this stage...

Whatever you like to drink is what you like to drink....There isn't a right or wrong answer there...Some people's palates change and if they started off not liking aged wine..they will..some people their palates will never change...and some people start off liking aged wine...

And by aged...that means many different things to many different people...For some, softening of the tannins and some secondary characters but still retaining that fruit is about as old as they'll want..for others it is when the fruit is way in the background if not almost gone and all of the tertiary characters start showing....with everything above and beyond all that and everything between...Different people will prefer different things...

My personal advice is buy what you like to drink...try not to buy too much of any one thing...try as many different things as you can even if that isn't the style of wine you like...

+1

For me, once a wine has lost most/all of it's fruit I consider it past its best - but that's based off my palate. Others may try it and think it's just coming into its peak drinking window!

[Ozzie W]

Thanks for everyone's comments and advice. It's been very interesting and useful reading.

The notion that my palate will continue to evolve over time is exciting. At the beginning of my red wine journey, fruit bombs and alcohol dominant styles didn't bother me. A few years later, I dislike those types of wine and now I prefer something with a bit more elegance and finesse. I love a good Pinot now too which I avoided in the past. I still don't get any enjoyment from white wines though, even the top notch stuff I tasted at Langtons didn't do anything for me.

Perhaps one day my palate will evolve further to the point where I prefer an aged red to a younger one. I understand that I don't have to ever like aged wines and there's nothing wrong with continuing to drink young wines. But when I see words like 'vinfanticide' often accompanying other people's tasting notes for the stuff I'm drinking now, it makes me feel like I should be liking aged wines, hence the motivation for my original post.

I do like Duncan's suggestion of putting a few bottles of something I really like away in the cellar and having one each year to see how it develops. That should help me figure out how much aging I like, if any.

[dan_smee]

I second Duncan's thoughts. Find something with pedigree, from a good vintage in a mid-price range so you can get more, and it will potentially develop well, but faster than the uber-expensive wines. Look at things like Greenock Creek Alice's Shiraz - $32 or so from the cellar door, and the 2012 (great vintage) is being released on their website this Septmeber. Buy a dozen, crack one open immediately, and I'd say 1 every 9 months, which will mean the bottle is about 10 years old when you finish them. Good price range for a wine that will tick a lot of boxes:

- Good Barossa producer
- Just moved to screwcaps - no bottle variation due to cork taint, randomoxidation etc
- A wine known to retain fruit for a while while developing secondary characters
- Not prohibitively expensive
- Will increase in value if after 6 bottles you just don't like it, you'd probably make your money back for the whole lot on the secondary market for such a low production wine from a great vintage.

I may add to this that different grapes and different regions are vastly different with bottle age. Try some Wynn's Black Label and John Riddoch with 10 years or so on it, try some By Farr Pinot's with 5-7 years, try shiraz from a variety of regions.

There's nothing wrong with not liking something at all, but you will definitely find that as your palate changes you are far more sensitive to certain aspects of wine. I am particularly sensitive to whole bunch fermentation, and can taste small percentages of stalkiness in wines, so people can't taste it at all. I am not sensitive at all to DMS and other 'faults' that others find unbearable. I used to hate Chardonnay, now I seek it out wherever I go. It may be that those secondary characters just aren't registering as clearly as they will do, or do for others. Things change, and I suppose my advice would be to keep at it and follow suggestions on here - when it does click (and I am confident it will), it will totally have been worth it.

[pstarr]

If it does turn out that, at the moment, what you like is young, rich, dark-fruited, Barossa-styled shiraz, there's nothing wrong with that. You have the bulk of the Australian wine industry competing for your attentions too, so lots of value on offer.

[griff]

I love a good Pinot now too which I avoided in the past.

As the expression goes, "All roads lead to Burgundy".

Just make sure you spend some time along the way

[rooman]

I will add a few more comments to the above:

1) i am not convinced warm region straight shiraz blends age into beautiful old wines. Most people I have known who started out collecting primarily shiraz eventually off loaded most of it on the secondary market.

2) if you want straight shiraz go for one from a cooler climate region. The Seppelts St Peters 1998 is awesome at present and affordable on the secondary market.

3) I adore old cabernet sav either straight or blended with shiraz. But you should aware well made top shelf cab sav can go into a drinking hole during which time it effectively shuts down. At 10 years, many good cab savs are in their dominant period when there's a cross over between the fading primary fruit and the emerging secondary flavour/structure. Repeatedly I have drunk wines out of a case and though they were shallow and empty only to have the last remaining few emerge as beautiful wines. I try (often without success) to hold the good cab savs for 14 years before cracking them open. Again try an example of Penfolds Bin 1998. This is drinking beautifully at present. Alternatively try a Moss Wood Cab Sav 1996.

4) When and how you open wines can be very important. I get good bottles out of the cellar the day before I want to drink them and stand them upright overnight. I then aim to pull the cork mid morning. This removes the need to decant the wine. I have found there is a massive difference between wines taken out of the cellar an hour or so before dinner and then opened v wines opened using the first method.

5) if you have only just started, whatever you are drinking now, it is highly likely your tastes will radically change over the years ahead and you will offload a lot of what you have currently purchased. Think long term. Riesling and Cab Sav need at least 10 years before hitting their straps.

6) Be a slut, only buy good wines from really good vintages. There is always a good vintage somewhere whether it is Margaret River, Hunter Valley, Piedmont, Mosel, Bordeaux. etc etc.

[rens]

I agree with roman's 1st point. I'm not convinced warm climate shiraz ages too well. I drink most of mine within the 1st 10 years.
For me I love Cabernet with about 20 years under the belt, I like mine somewhere between 15 and 25 years.
Try a well stored 1996 Penfold's bin 389 or even better, a 1991 Wynns Centenary. If you still think aged reds are not your thing, drink yours young.

[dave vino]

Where are you located? Best way to get more exposure to older wines is to hook up with one of the tasting groups I'm sure they'll love to have you along to try some older wines at a tasting and they can explain the why's of the wine. You might experience an epiphany upon trying one or you may walk away still scratching your head.

I'm in Sydney fwiw and happy to organise something (any excuse for a wine tasting )

[Ozzie W]

Where are you located? Best way to get more exposure to older wines is to hook up with one of the tasting groups I'm sure they'll love to have you along to try some older wines at a tasting and they can explain the why's of the wine. You might experience an epiphany upon trying one or you may walk away still scratching your head.

I'm in Sydney fwiw and happy to organise something (any excuse for a wine tasting )

I'm in Melbourne.

[Ozzie W]

Try a well stored 1996 Penfold's bin 389 or even better, a 1991 Wynns Centenary. If you still think aged reds are not your thing, drink yours young.

Where should I be looking to source bottles like these? Auctions?

[Mike Hawkins]

Rooman makes an excellent point about buying in the best vintages. Aussie produicers aren't like the Bordelais whereby prices are (generally) in proportion to the perceived vintage quality - they price every vintage roughly the same with a smallish annual increase. As such, I see no reason to buy 2009/11/13 in the Barossa when 2 vintages 'for the ages' are wedged in between.

Cheers

Mike

[Polymer]

I think it is good to buy the best vintages when they're current specifically for what Mike said...

BUT
If you're looking to buy older vintages at auction....I actually prefer the lesser vintages for several reasons:

They tend to be good to go earlier than the "best" vintages.
They go for a LOT less than the great vintages...
They often times are surprisingly great...from a good producer, a lesser vintage doesn't necessarily produce an inferior wine.

[Brucer]

[quote="Polymer"]I don't think he chose the wrong wines to drink...I think he doesn't like aged wine at this stage...
quote]

The wines that he chose to drink are wines that I dont like much at all either.
If I drank any of them , I would not be happy.
But I do like aged wines.
Its about which wines to age.

This is all very interesting.
I like big rich Barossa and McLaren Vale wines, but they still have to have balance and structure and tannins to let them age well.
Many of these are better drunk younger, but there are some that age really well, and can become astonishing.
Every wine is different.
I do think shiraz wines age well.
A 2002 Lehmann Stonewall shiraz opened recently was just so young still. 12 years old, and still needs years.
A 1986 Kays Block 6 drunk at 23 years old, was unbelievable.
Its a big learning experience.

[Brucer]

I keep the rant going.
My current favourite go to wine is 2010 Mollydooker Carnival Of Love shiraz, from McLaren Vale.
Its rich, ripe sweet, has balance and is just so good to drink.
Many would be horrified at this, but I love it.

But in the past couple of months, I have drunk some lovely old wines, that have aged perfectly.
My cellar revolves a lot, and any wine I have that is not going in the right direction, gets sent to auction.
Wines that are good, and show signs they will age well are kept.
Some wines I keep for a long time, they are generally the last couple from a dozen that I think has more to go.

A 1992 Henschke Mt Edelstone recently was fantastic. I have a few old one, and its always been a favourite.
1994 Houghtons Jack Mann, and a 1995 were both brilliant.
I have 1999 Jack there, and some old Mosswood cabernets, 1999,01 waiting.
The 1998 Penfolds RWT shiraz is something special.
Rockford Basket Press shiraz is a special wine. The 98s are fantastic, as the 96s, even the odd years of 01 and 03 are very good. Much more drinkable then Wendouree IMO.
cheers

[ticklenow1]

I love a good Pinot now too which I avoided in the past.

As the expression goes, "All roads lead to Burgundy".

Just make sure you spend some time along the way

Gee I hope my road is an extremely long one, as I don't think I could afford to become addicted to Burgundy!

Cheers
Ian

[rens]

Try a well stored 1996 Penfold's bin 389 or even better, a 1991 Wynns Centenary. If you still think aged reds are not your thing, drink yours young.

Where should I be looking to source bottles like these? Auctions?

Yes you can go to auction, some online retailers will have them. If you go to Auction I recommend Wickmans. He tells you about the storage history, so lessens the chance of a dud.
Rens

[Ozzie W]

Thanks for everyone's advice. There has been a wide variety of opinions on this issue which just goes to show there's so many variables in the aged wine equation. I never expected that my first post would generate so much interest. Keep the comments rolling in.

[Mick 1955]

What an interesting can of worms you have opened with this discussion Ozzie W! I have also been a long time “lurker” around this forum and one thing that has fascinated me has been the differences in various poster’s palates – particularly, as you have enquired, in regard to preference in levels of age and also perceptions of particular characters in wine. For instance some posters appears to be sensitive to oak and some others enjoy the same level of oak; some like wine with some age but retaining some fruit and others enjoy more tertiary flavours – and on it goes.
Personally my tastes are a bit eclectic, I enjoy both young wine (many 2012’s that are just so tempting !), and like some others I also enjoy some age but retaining some primary fruit. I enjoy warm area shiraz (particularly Hunter and McLaren Vale) and more recently I have relished some more refined cool climate shiraz and pinot noir. I love aged Hunter Semillon, but as I type this I am enjoying a young Semillon.
There are many educated and interesting palates on this forum - I’m no “spring chicken” (my name should give you a clue) and I continue to learn from some terrific discussions here.
Some wines, simply put, are built for the long haul – but when the balance is right there is something deliciously decadent about enjoying wine in a state of pristine primary fruit.
As has already been suggested, your palate and tastes in wine will more than likely develop and change over time - I guess the message is “drink what You like to drink” and enjoy the journey.

Cheers
Mick

[REDRUM]

I've only just really started buying wines to put away for years, and I'm just worried that I won't enjoy the age on them as much as I think! I haven't really drunk much aged wine to date ... but I'm finding more appreciation these days for wines that aren't so fruit-forward so that might be a sign that I'm not doing myself a disservice by sticking a few bottles away...

[TravisW]

My advice would be: Drink as widely as possible. Varietals, vintages, states and countries. Don't stick with what you like as there is SO much wine out there. Don't get hung up too much on why you don't like a particular wine, just keep "researching" and after a few years it will start to fall into place.

As someone has already said, enjoy the journey!

Cheers, Travis.

[Scotty vino]

My advice would be: Drink as widely as possible. Varietals, vintages, states and countries. Don't stick with what you like as there is SO much wine out there. Don't get hung up too much on why you don't like a particular wine, just keep "researching" and after a few years it will start to fall into place.

As someone has already said, enjoy the journey!

Cheers, Travis.

+1....Could not have written it better.

[Ozzie W]

Had a couple slightly aged wines tonight.

The first was a 2007 Mount Langi Ghiran Langi Shiraz. I found this wine impressive. It was so fruity despite a handful of years in the cellar. This isn't something I'm used to with aged wines. I really liked this. Better than a 2010 Langi I had about a year ago, and 2007 wasn't exactly a good vintage in Grampians. An eye opener for me.

The second was a 2006 Penfolds St Henri. Lovely wine, but I was expecting more. Perhaps 3 hrs in the decanter wasn't enough? The 2010 St Henri I had a month ago was better than this.