2010 St Henri

[Broughy]

As an up front statement , I collect Penfolds wines and have done so for decades. I collect a lot of wines but I particularly enjoy Bin 389 and St Henri and have verticals of these wines. I believe they are good examples of the genre, they age extremely well and drink extremely well when they are ready.

I can contrast this this with a lot of wines and I have cellared, many that have a reputation for being small batch etc, that are no where near as good.

I find these wines good value for money because I know where they go long term and they are reliable.

Interesting to see that a lot of contributors to this forum bash Penfolds almost as a badge of honour, or the latest trend with the me too following. Interesting also to see the rush to purchase these wines in good vintages by the same folk.

These wines are what they are, the marketing by the distributors may not be to everyone's liking, but hey they do what they do to move stock. I can tell you the pricing on mainland Australia is light years away from Tas.

For mine I would be quite happy to take up the allocations of the Penfolds knockers. I paid $87 for my half doz, not because of a rating but my assessment of the vintage and likely outcome for the wine.

So if you like it buy it, if you don't then don't buy it, but don't grand stand on it because it is a commercial wine and you think small batch is better or somehow superior. These wines are good and often good value for money.

[Chuck]

Penfolds used to be a small well run wine business with many people working there sharing a passion. Whilst making profits was nice it wasn't it driving force. It liked to make wines that people enjoyed. Now it's part of a big ugly multi-national that is completely profit and share price driven. (both have plumeted) Whilst there is still a passion it's not widespread. I think it all started to unravel when the industrial conglomerate Rosemount did a reverse take over of Southcorp and let those Hunter Valley cowboys loose in an institution that didn't need help. Most of those with the passion left. Southcorp paid something like $1.2bn for Rosemount. I think it's been written down to around $300mil. That's a loss of around 75%. The restructured marketing team meant beer salesmen also sold Grange. Penfolds still make great wines but in my mind lack individuality. Bob Oatley is a shrewd businessman who sucked in chewed up and spat them oat. Like Macquarie Bank you never want to be on the other side of the transaction with Bob as if you are then you know you have lost.

Carl

[Polymer]

I can contrast this this with a lot of wines and I have cellared, many that have a reputation for being small batch etc, that are no where near as good.

Nothing about small boutique wines would suggest they're going to cellar as well as some that are made to do so...I think the attraction of a lot of boutique wines is they're different..whether that be because style or because it reflects a sense of place, when you're faced with many many good wines, you ones that tend to stick out in your mind are the very very exceptional ones or the ones that are different...

Interesting to see that a lot of contributors to this forum bash Penfolds almost as a badge of honour, or the latest trend with the me too following. Interesting also to see the rush to purchase these wines in good vintages by the same folk.

I haven't seen this at all. I've seen people bash Penfolds or be disappointed in their pricing (this mainly applies to the bin 389, 407, 128, 138, 28)...and I do it on here as much as anyone..but I haven't seen anyone then rush to buy them in a good vintage. The St. Henri pricing hasn't changed in quite awhile and I haven't seen anyone really bash it at all..it has very much just been hiding in the background...I've seen some people try to get some 2010 St. Henri because, let's face it, it was rated very very highly by a lot of different people (in different countries as well), and while it isn't showing well right now(IMO), it has really good structure, young fruit, and given the track record, it isn't a bad buy at 70 dollars for what a lot of people think is the best St. Henri in a long time (I bought one because I had a DM gift card)...and yet plenty of people here have passed on it.
Let's contrast that to the 2011 389 or 407. They both might be better than what most people expected out of 2011..but are they worth 70? I don't think they're worth anything near that. The 2010 389 a very good wine...probably a bit overpriced but still a very good wine. I think most people felt it was going to be very good and cellar well..Some people bought some just in case, some didn't get any at all. It sounds like (to me anyways) most people buy a lot less Penfolds than they used to. That might be because price or because they've moved on to other things they find more interesting...

To be fair, the 389 really is a good wine. I think some of the disappointment comes from the fact that it used to be a really good buy..something that was reasonably priced and you were able to cellar it for a long time...far better than its price would have suggested. The big price jump has really turned that on its head. Maybe the 2010 wasn't too poorly priced but the 2011 is...The 2009 was poorly priced as well...I'm sure there was a time when the Chinese market was helping make up some numbers but it looks like that has changed. A lot of very well known wine stores in the US have just stopped carrying Penfolds because it just isn't selling..not at all. They can't even sell out of 2009 389s at the Duty Free store at the Sydney airport.

We won't even touch the 128/28/138...

These wines are what they are, the marketing by the distributors may not be to everyone's liking, but hey they do what they do to move stock. I can tell you the pricing on mainland Australia is light years away from Tas.

I'm actually of the opinion they haven't jacked up the prices on the St. Henri because most people aren't going to enjoy drinking it young..and really, it isn't showing great right now. With the 389 you had least and dark brooding fruit and while you had big tannins, you still had a really gutsy wine that people might like. The St. Henri doesn't seem like that at all...it seems very awkward right now with really good structure but I don't know if it is actually that enjoyable to drink right now...in 20 years it'll very likely be fantastic...

So if you like it buy it, if you don't then don't buy it, but don't grand stand on it because it is a commercial wine and you think small batch is better or somehow superior. These wines are good and often good value for money.

I think my opinion on them is just as valid as yours (and yours is as valid as mine). If you think they're good value for money that's fair enough...I personally don't really think they are. Maybe in great years (2012 will probably be great as well) they are..in bad or average years they don't seem that way at all. The great thing about wine is people enjoy different things and everyone has a valid opinion about it. If someone is complaining about the value of say, Penfolds, and you don't agree, that isn't going to stop you from buying it and certainly you can disagree and express your opinion about how you enjoy Penfolds but I think telling people NOT to express their opinion is really anti forum....We are here for a discussion and the very nature of wine means there are going to be opinions (sometimes very strong ones) one way or another...I'd also add that Internet forums are probably not a good place to go if you're not ok with a dissenting opinion...

[Alan Foo]

The great thing about wine is people enjoy different things and everyone has a valid opinion about it. If someone is complaining about the value of say, Penfolds, and you don't agree, that isn't going to stop you from buying it and certainly you can disagree and express your opinion about how you enjoy Penfolds but I think telling people NOT to express their opinion is really anti forum....We are here for a discussion and the very nature of wine means there is going to be opinions (sometimes very strong ones) one way or another...I'd also add that Internet forums are probably not a good place to go if you're not ok with a dissenting opinion...

Well said

[phillisc]

Agreed, well said Polymer.
I think people are disputing the poor vintages and the way OTT pricing structures.
Is this not what they do in Bordeaux and this receives world wide attention, so why not for Penfolds.
They think they are a world player, so yes if they make a good wine in a good vintage then thumbs up.

If they make crap and attempt to pass it off as something good...then we have the right to comment and more importantly just won't buy.

Cheers Craig

[mucyx2007]

Quick update on my 2010 st henri order

The case has arrived this morning as a wooden box, haven't open yet so not sure if it's cork or screw cap.

heard that the 2010 st henri sold out most of the place and there are none left to sell
Peter Gago couldn't even get hold of one bottle - http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/st-henri-mania-hits-wine-scene-20140516-38ffh.html

not sure if this is real, however feeling lucky to cellar some.

Cheers

[wiggum]

"Peter Gago couldn't even get hold of one bottle"

May I say - Bull...t

[mucyx2007]

I would agree!

[wiggum]

Marketing at its best?

[Mike Hawkins]

Penfolds make up a greater % of my cellar than any other producer, and some of the best Australian wines I've ever had have been made by them (71, 86 Grange and some of the Special Bins are all-world in my opinion). My beef, as articulated previously, with Penfolds is....

1. they jack prices up in dud vintages. I have no issues with prices going up for the 04/10/12 vintages - indeed if I made a premium product in a premium year, I'd try to do the same. That said, if they can sell out in every year, they don't need my money or my opinion !

2. They clearly make some world class wines, but I'll never be convinced that Bin 128 and 407 are worth the price. Nevertheless, if the 2010 St Henri is as good as people say, $80 is more than acceptable.

3. Some of the grapes that used to go in to the likes of Bin 28 and 389 prior to circa 1996 now go in to more expensive labels (eg RWT). As such, Bin 28 and 389, while still nice wines, are not as good as the used to be IMO.

While I no longer buy as much Penfolds as I used to, I will still buy selectively in the 'good' years, and have no doubt they'll release some outstanding wines from the 2012 vintage. I believe that people who make a blanket ban on Penfolds are missing out on some fantastic wines, nothwithstanding their pricing policies.

Cheers

Mike

[dan_smee]

Just picked up a crate (empty) of the St Henri 2010 for the box panels, and posted a photo on instagram. Conversation ensues:

@dan_smee: #iwish @penfolds #sthenri 2010 - can't actually find any anywhere. The box, however looks great. Collecting for when I build my cellar in our #foreverhouse

@winebitches: You in Melbourne? Costco still has some

@dan_smee: Canberra - haven't been to Costco here to look yet, will have a look!

@garywalsh: Reckon 2004 St Henri better than 2010 by some margin

@dan_smee: It's one of the reasons I haven't tried too hard to find any. If I found a bottle for a decent price, I'd grab one - but a 100 point rating from someone who is essentially a Woolworths employee isn't convincing enough!

@garywalsh: Yes. It's a good St Henri for sure, but 100 #ahem#. No compulsion to buy in the slightest.

@penfolds: The 2010 St Henri received a 'perfect score' (20/20) from Matthew Jukes in the UK as well as Andrew Caillard MW in Australia. Stock has become increasingly difficult to obtain for those who are looking to buy.


So - couple of things about that Penfolds response:

1 - Careful words 'stock has become increasingly difficult to obtain' - not 'selling out', not 'overwhelming demand'. It is definitely difficult to obtain when you drip feed the market to fuel hype and expectation...

2 - I am wary of any 100 point wines, and even more so when the person giving the rating could easily stand to benefit from his employers by giving his endorsement.

3 - Do they really feel like they will change the hearts and minds by engaging with a nobody on social media? Seems like they are trying so hard to protect an image, but they are trying hard to justify unpopular and dodgy practices...

[Mike Hawkins]

Thanks Dan.

I know Matthew Jukes and will be at a dinner with him next month, so I look forward to getting his take on the wine. That said, I've already bought some, but may be convinced to buy more.

Mike

[phillisc]

Wouldn't be too worried about dear old pennies, it will all blow over next vintage.
Let me see May 2015 there will be 5 billion cases of St Henri on the floor and everything else made in that vintage...and this time Gago will really be out of town, he won't want to come back!!
Perhaps it will be a Californian stock write down
Agreed Mike..it will give them the excuse to push 2012 vintage prices into the stratosphere....Grange will be RRP 4 figures. The 71 at $800 looks a positive bargain!!

Cheers
Craig

[Polymer]

1. they jack prices up in dud vintages. I have no issues with prices going up for the 04/10/12 vintages - indeed if I made a premium product in a premium year, I'd try to do the same. That said, if they can sell out in every year, they don't need my money or my opinion !

Yeap..I'd actually have no issues w/ premiums in fantastic years....If they're selling out every year including dud years, more power to them...It doesn't look like that is the case though..

3. Some of the grapes that used to go in to the likes of Bin 28 and 389 prior to circa 1996 now go in to more expensive labels (eg RWT). As such, Bin 28 and 389, while still nice wines, are not as good as the used to be IMO.

Yeap...Their lower end bins used to be pretty good...nowadays, in some cases, they're actually pretty bad.

While I no longer buy as much Penfolds as I used to, I will still buy selectively in the 'good' years, and have no doubt they'll release some outstanding wines from the 2012 vintage.

If I think they match up well with what else is available, I'd still buy Penfolds...I don't think anyone has banned them but I think it is more they've made a value judgement and decided it wasn't worth buying when they could by ABC for less or spend X more and get Y. I agree with you on the 2010 St. Henri, if it is as good as they say it is a pretty good buy.

They obviously still move the needle in Australia...more so than any other wine company....

[Michael McNally]

Quick update on my 2010 st henri order

The case has arrived this morning as a wooden box, haven't open yet so not sure if it's cork or screw cap.

Interestingly enough, while you continue to leave the box unopened your bottles remain simultaneously sealed by screwcap AND cork. As soon as you open the box, they will become one or the other (unless you happened to get a mixed half dozen!).

Cheers

Michael

[bdellabosca]

.

[mucyx2007]

Quick update on my 2010 st henri order

The case has arrived this morning as a wooden box, haven't open yet so not sure if it's cork or screw cap.

Interestingly enough, while you continue to leave the box unopened your bottles remain simultaneously sealed by screwcap AND cork. As soon as you open the box, they will become one or the other (unless you happened to get a mixed half dozen!).

Cheers

Michael

Opened last night, took me 30 mins trying not to damage the box.
Lucky me, all screw caps with paper wrap.

Might try sourcing another case with cork closure to compare the taste after several years:)

Cheers

Sean

[alexc92]

Peter Gago didnt get a bottle!? Why do i find this very hard to believe...

[wiggum]

I know where there is another 6 waiting for a wealthy purchaser. Postmark if you want to know where in Melbourne.

[Sean]

deleted

[Sean]

deleted

[Mr_Cervelo]

I've got a couple bottles in my cellar, I might send one to Peter since the poor guy missed out.

I collect, drink and gift grange. It's like fashion for men. I tell my colleagues that I had a Chris ringland and they wouldn't have a clue. I tell them I polished off an 84 grange and they think I'm a god. Kudos to the penfolds marketing team!

[Mike Hawkins]

Thanks Sean. I read the note, and he makes some big calls, but I'm interested more in qualitative comparisons with other 20/20 wines. After all, in critic-speak, not all animals are (necessarily) equal. Some of his full-pointers in the past have underwhelemed me a tad.

If you ever get to meet him, he' a nice guy and is absolutely passionate about wine - including speaking about it at length.

Cheers

Mike

[wiggum]

Does anyone know what JO rated this wine?

[mjs]

Guess I find the bagging of Penfolds by many a little cynical. Lets face, like it or not, they have been responsible for some of the best wines made in Australia over the last 50 years or so. How could you bag 62 Bin 60A, Bin 7, 71 Grange, 82 389, 90 Grange, Bin 90A, Bin 920, 96 Block 42, etc. Not cheap, but these are equivalent to the pinnacle of Australian winemaking to which all should aspire (and my general preferred label is Wynns!!!!). 1990 Bin 90A currently at about $280 at auction is just drinking so beautifully at present its just not funny!! If these wines were not there, we would have poorer goals to which to aspire.

Get over it people, recognise the role of Penfolds in the market. (having said it that, I still quite can't come to terms with Bin 170 at $1800!! )

[mjs]

Oh, I managed to get what appeared to be the last two bottles of 2010 St H in Adelaide a couple of weeks ago!!

[dan_smee]

Guess I find the bagging of Penfolds by many a little cynical. Lets face, like it or not, they have been responsible for some of the best wines made in Australia over the last 50 years or so. How could you bag 62 Bin 60A, Bin 7, 71 Grange, 82 389, 90 Grange, Bin 90A, Bin 920, 96 Block 42, etc. Not cheap, but these are equivalent to the pinnacle of Australian winemaking to which all should aspire (and my general preferred label is Wynns!!!!). 1990 Bin 90A currently at about $280 at auction is just drinking so beautifully at present its just not funny!! If these wines were not there, we would have poorer goals to which to aspire.

Get over it people, recognise the role of Penfolds in the market. (having said it that, I still quite can't come to terms with Bin 170 at $1800!! )

To be fair mjs, I think a lot of the Pennies cynicism is due to the disappointment in recent actions BECAUSE of their great legacy. I don't think anyone is questioning their legacy at all. In fact, I recall a number of comments on this site about the Bin series wines not being what they used to be because of current practices.

Their role and legendary status is unimpeachable. What most (including myself) take exception to now is the blatant gouging in poor vintages - the 2009 Grange RRP is just laughable - and the ridiculous special bin wines, like the Bin 170 at $1800. The Penfolds of old wouldn't have done those things. Again, I don't recall it going much beyond people expressing their exasperation of these kinds of things, and then nominating wines that provide better value in their place. If I was Penfolds parents I would be saying to them "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed"

[dan_smee]

And when you contrast the 2008 Grange price hike, and then retaining prices for the vastly inferior 2009 to the practices of, say, Rockford or Greenock Creek - Basket Press is, what $59 at the cellar door? I found it in my local bottle shop for $130, and I thought that was cheap! Back vintages in most bottle shops are close to $200. They would make bucketloads by jacking the prices up to 90-100 bucks, but they don't. Greenock Creek are the same. The 2008 Roennfeldt Road Cabernet sold out within a week - I bought 2 bottles - for $192. I saw it on Langton's the next week for DOUBLE that price. I had half a mind to order 6 bottles next year, sell 3 and pay off the total price. 3 free bottle of Roennfeldt Road? I digress - some companies squeeze every last dollar from their customers, others respect that it is the customers that buy the goods, and repaying loyalty gets returned to you in spades.

[fts70]

Worth mentioning from a European perspective is that there are four blue-chip wines that you can always find cheaper here than at cellar door: The Laird, Grange, Hill of Grace and Mount Edelstone. On the other hand I have never seen a Greenock Creek sell for less than twice the price at CD!

Greetings from Europe / fts70

[phillisc]

Malcolm,
I get where you are coming from and its well known here I am quite fond of Wynns too (can't wait for the outrage when the soon to be released 2012 BL will have an RRP of $50!!).

However, I have to go with Dan here and pennies "deserve" everything they get.
Without getting rocks chucked on the roof again, I like many other have been seduced by 100 points and have joined the trophy hunter brigade....it is my first current pennies release purchase in nearly 10 years.
I source a bit of St Henri, Magill and 28 on the secondary market, and thankfully through a third party was able to source some of the 2010 at a sharp price.

The main issue I have with this brand is they have effectively disenfranchised the domestic market and I don't want to tell you so...but its bitten them in the arse....job losses anyone. Yes i am cynical...cynical that i can not get a wine at the quality or the price point of the 1986 Bin 28 anymore. Cynical that i can buy most of the range cheaper overseas, cynical that the great Chinese push has fallen over at the expense of the Australian market, cynical that the new Kraft cheese man chief objective is to pour millions into....marketing a handful of brands primarily to off shore customers...WTF, that will really work..as good as Joyce grounding the fleet.

As I wish to get a few cases of Wynns each year...and it is getting harder and harder, I completely understand how loyal yearly Penfolds buyers feel really pissed at the marketing practices. The company clearly does not understand this, they actually don't care about the local punters nor as it seems do they need to.

Inevitably, people vote with their feet. Unless there are amazing 2012 releases at reasonable prices then the ride for most will be over.

Dan, your point about smaller makers is relevant. They have to stay focused towards their customer base or they die. In remaining focused towards this, both sides of the fence remain happy, safe to say that both sides of the fence (in relation to above company and its once large customer base) are not.

Cheers
Craig.