wines for more than 15 yrs

[sjw_11]

Hey llredwine this is a good question ... we had a discussion on this a little while ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13396&p=109123&hilit=what+quantity+do+you+buy#p108910 seems most forumites are now buying mid-sized quantities (3-6 bottles) to give some chance to watch development but also spread the love around rather than putting all eggs into just a few whole dozen baskets

Great observation as well Burgster, the only thing I would say is a lot of producers are quite happy for you to buy wines that are cheap to make and drunk immediately (say Sav Blanc or Riesling) as this provides a lot quicker turn over of cash flow! (Once the bottle is gone you HAVE to buy more wine... if its still in the cellar you MIGHT buy the next vintage, but you might forget given you already have XXXX bottles of wine stashed)...

[Polymer]

It's been an interesting discussion.

I do agree totally with Milan's point that one day you do have to be prepared to drink the wine.

Strange as it may seem, after collecting wines for many years it is easy to see them as trophies and not actually get around to drinking them until they are past their best.

The other point that I often ponder is this whole concept of a product that has to be stored for 10-15 years before you can actually use it.

Imagine buying a new car and having to park it in the garage for many years until you can use it. Perhaps getting it out at ten years of age and driving it around the block to see if it is working ok yet.

In many ways its a very cunning marketing ploy pushed on us by the wine industry. Open a wine too young and its your fault for not being patient enough, leave it too long and you should have drunk it a few years earlier when it peaked after 13.5 years in the bottle. Very cunning if you ask me, and what other industry could get away with it?

Well, there's no optimal drinking window...it is just one person's opinion. Plus bottles tend to have some variability so one might be drinking perfectly now..another might not. I think that is all the personality of the wine..the subjectivity, etc....

Some people feel wine should be ready to drink right away even with though it has the structure to last a long time...Not all wines are made like that, some are.

Either way, whatever your preferred drinking window is (where the wine is where you like it), it is a pretty broad window I think...it might not be a window of 10 years or 5 years (or it could be) but it is probably not a window of a few months and even if it was we'd never really know.

[Mahmoud Ali]

The other point that I often ponder is this whole concept of a product that has to be stored for 10-15 years before you can actually use it.

I don't think this is true at all. It is almost never claimed by any winery that a consumer NOT drink a wine upon purchase. They do suggest a time frame whereby the wine may improve, and on the back label it is almost always an underestimate because they fear that the buyer may not be able to store it properly. Wines do change with time in bottle and some people like this evolution. Young wines can be fun to drink, they are full of fresh vitality and young fruit. Some wines also have a firm structure and plenty of tannins, and these take time to ameliorate. It is your choice whether you want to drink them young or old.

Imagine buying a new car and having to park it in the garage for many years until you can use it. Perhaps getting it out at ten years of age and driving it around the block to see if it is working ok yet.

Your analogy of the new car is not quite right. If you want to make an analogy between a new car and wine then in reality there are two parts.

First, it is a product. When you buy a new car you know what brand it is, and that it will run, though you may not know how reliable or durable it will be in the long run. It is similar with the wine, when you buy it you know the producer and label, and you know what food you should drink it with but you may not know whether it will be a good match or whether you will like it.

Second, that of preserving it. If you don't open your bottle of wine you may not know how it was but it will become a rarity and increase in value. With your car, the same holds true, you will never know if it was a reliable or durable car but it too will be pristine and valuable to an automobile collector.

In many ways its a very cunning marketing ploy pushed on us by the wine industry. Open a wine too young and its your fault for not being patient enough, leave it too long and you should have drunk it a few years earlier when it peaked after 13.5 years in the bottle. Very cunning if you ask me, and what other industry could get away with it?

If the cellaring of wine is an industry ploy then it has failed miserably in Australia. From all I've read the wine industry has always reported that about 95% of all wines purchased in Australia is consumed within 24 hours (or is it 48?).

Each wine has an evolution of their own. First, they drink well when young as most people realize when they taste them at cellar door. As they age they enter a "dumb" phase where the primary fruit fades but the mature quality has yet to show, they appear closed and dull. As the tertiary character appears they enter their plateau, their drinking window if you will. This will last for some time before it starts to go downhill. Robert Parker once wrote about Bordeaux saying that if a particular red wine took 10 years to reach it's plateau, it would remain there for a further 10 before taking a another 10 to decline. I suspect that this formula may well apply to other wines in some way, shape or form, depending on the grape type and structure. For some wines it's 2-2-2 and for others it's 20-20-20.

Those who collect wines do so because they like older wines, they like the tertiary character, the mature flavours, and the mellow tannins. Then there are other who do it because it appears the done thing and having a cellar is more a matter of prestige.

Just my two cents.................................Mahmoud.

[Michael McNally]

It really depends on the individual. Just look at some of the varied reviews you see on CellarTracker, one person will say it hasn't entered it's drinking window, the next will say it's well past it. Which one is right? Probably both.

Sorry, but I disagree, they both cannot be right. Preferences may be subjective but there are informed opinions about quality and how a wine ages. It is intuitively clear that a wine cannot be both good and bad at the same time, nor too young and old. Each bottle may show differently over time because of storage but that is another story.

Mahmoud.

What if one person seriously prefers tertiary characters in their wine, while the other likes the primary characters? Is one more 'informed' than the other?

The first will say it hasn't entered its drinking window and the other might say it's past it. As long as each begins their assessment with "For me......", they are both right.

Vive la difference!

Cheers

Michael

[Mahmoud Ali]

Hi Michael,

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. You are right, some prefer their wines younger while other like them aged. There is no right or wrong. As I said these are preferences but, it has to be said, it is subjective, not a pronouncement about what is right or wrong. An informed drinker would know how a wine ages and can make their own decision about when they prefer to drink it, not state categorically that the wine is "well past it".

Robert Parker, in his seminal Bordeaux book, used to say that he preferred his wines on the younger side. He advised readers who preferred their wines older to drink them at the tail end of his predicted drinking window. Preference versus informed opinion. I quickly learned to drink Bordeaux past Parker's drinking window.

Cheers, and vivre la difference..........................Mahmoud.

[Michael McNally]

Cheers, and vivre la difference..........................Mahmoud.

Subtle! Nice pick up Mahmoud!

And a good response too. An informed person would not say, "it's past it" were it simply not their preferred drinking style.

Cheers

Michael

[daz]

I have just a few bottles of "trophy" wines I've held for more than 10 years, up to 17 years after vintage, all with cork seals, so it'll like Russian roulette when they're eventually opened for consumption.

[Michael McNally]

Not quite 15 years old but last night I had a 1999 Sevenhill Shiraz Touriga Malbec. It was simply a lovely, medium-weight aged red. Enough fruit for interest, but plenty of secondary and tertiary characters such as old camphor chest, tobacco and forest floor. Went really well with a simple tomato and parsley pasta sauce.

These wines are true gems when the lottery pays off.

Cheers

Michael

PS the back label said "age for four years"!!

[ross67]

Not quite 15 years old but last night I had a 1999 Sevenhill Shiraz Touriga Malbec. It was simply a lovely, medium-weight aged red. Enough fruit for interest, but plenty of secondary and tertiary characters such as old camphor chest, tobacco and forest floor. Went really well with a simple tomato and parsley pasta sauce.

These wines are true gems when the lottery pays off.

Cheers

Michael

PS the back label said "age for four years"!!

Nice job on this Michael.
I'm quite keen on Touriga. SC Pannell I think does a good one?
Do you know what the variety breakdown on this was?

ross

[Mahmoud Ali]

Not quite 15 years old but last night I had a 1999 Sevenhill Shiraz Touriga Malbec. It was simply a lovely, medium-weight aged red. Enough fruit for interest, but plenty of secondary and tertiary characters such as old camphor chest, tobacco and forest floor. Went really well with a simple tomato and parsley pasta sauce.

These wines are true gems when the lottery pays off.

Cheers

Michael

PS the back label said "age for four years"!!

Michael,

This is amazing, I believe that I purchased a couple of bottles of the '99 Sevenhill STM many years ago when I was at cellar door. Although a modestly priced wine I really thought it was quite tasty and enjoyed the unique blend as well as the structure. Unfortunately the bottles were consumed on the trip and never made it home. It's nice to know that the wine has gone the distance if you will and is still drinking well.

The best wine at cellar door that year was the 1987 Sevenhill VP. That made it home and a few years ago, when over 20 years old, was a real knockout, a virtual Portuguese port lookalike. It fooled all my friends.

Thanks for the memory. I may still have the STM label somewhere.

Cheers...............Mahmoud.