The problem with screw caps...

The place on the web to chat about wine, Australian wines, or any other wines for that matter
sjw_11
Site Admin
Posts: 1939
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:10 pm
Location: London

The problem with screw caps...

Post by sjw_11 »

I cannot help but wade again into these shark infested waters... 8) BUT finally there has emerged a study which at least goes some way to supporting the main concern I have with screw caps: that I always feel they are much more likely to be damaged in handling and transit than with corks, and you may not even be able to tell if this has happened until too late (at, say, the 2033 Sydney Offline)...

"Damaged screwcaps are an even bigger problem for wine quality than cork taint, according to research by one of Australia’s newest masters of wine.

The level of physical damage to screwcaps found in retail outlets was a shocking 26 per cent, while the level of damage severe enough to cause loss of quality in wine was 8.2 per cent – a level higher than generally acknowledged for cork taint.

Much of the damage results from handling in retail outlets. Bottles in presentation racks had the highest level of damage, and large retail outlets were found to have higher levels of damage than small. Damage also occurs during application, packing, storage, transport and unpacking.
The research was done by Alison Eisermann-Ctercteko as part of her Master of Wine dissertation. She found decorated caps were the most susceptible to damage, presumably because the printing process involves heat which weakens the metal.

She also found that plastic-lined caps, such as Stelvin Luxe, are more sturdy, although more expensive. They can carry decorations, logos etc without being compromised. The study is published in Wine & Viticulture Journal Volume 28 Number 5."
Summary courtesy of Huon Hooke, Corkscore Newsletter

I would love to read the full article but its subscribers only, I will see if I can dig it up.
------------------------------------
Sam

Panda 9D
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:01 am

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Panda 9D »

I've always wondered about that. Great post.

WineRick
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by WineRick »

Also,under screwcap, how can you tell if the wine has had a good 'cooking'?

Panda 9D
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:01 am

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Panda 9D »

WineRick wrote:Also,under screwcap, how can you tell if the wine has had a good 'cooking'?


The cap is slightly domed if it has been thrashed.

Polymer
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:40 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Polymer »

I have a hard time believing those statistics though..1 out of 4 screwcaps are damaged? and 8% of the wine has been compromised? I dunno...that doesn't seem to fit right with what I see...

Maybe there are a ton of 5-10 dollar bottles no one cares about or notices that are skewing the results...Has anyone else seen this?

I do like the Luxe caps though..they feel nicer and seem a bit more resistant to damage...but someone told me they're not as consistent tightness wise? Not sure..

gap
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:28 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by gap »

I can't recall ever seeing a damaged screwcap in a retail outlet.

The only times I've ever seen damaged caps is once due to poor handling in transit and twice when I've belted the top of the bottle accidentally myself.

Why would anyone buy a bottle with a damaged screwcap anyway?

No one would buy a bottle showing any signs of a dodgy cork so why would a screwcap be any different?

Where is Ms Eisermann-Ctercteko getting this information? From the cork industry in Europe?

Polymer
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:40 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Polymer »

I dunno...but sounds like a made up dissertation to get her MW.....My guess is that her data is flawed...I don't think she made up her numbers..but the numbers she had told her something and she made a conclusion...but the flaw is probably her sampling...

timmspe
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:45 am

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by timmspe »

Interesting.

I have a couple of questions though :wink:

What constitutes a 'damaged' screw cap? What does it look like? How can you identify one? Why can't you (in some cases) identify it until it's too late?

Through what mechanism does a damaged screw cap affect the quality of the wine? And what is the effect that a damaged screw cap has on the quality of wine? Is it something analogous to 'cork taint' e.g. a component of the screw cap seeping in to the wine (a la dinted and rusted tinned food)? Or is it a damaged seal leading to accelerated oxidation? Or something else all together?

User avatar
dan_smee
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:02 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by dan_smee »

Ok, so how damaged does a screwcap have to be to effect quality? I'd imagine it'd need a significant whacking, but then if 8% are faulty because of it, I have to say 2 in 25 bottles I drink do not have noticeable damage to them - so my question is this:

For a wine to be negatively effected by a screwcap, does the damage have to be visible? I would imagine so. If this is then true DON'T BUY WINE WITH A DAMAGED SCREW CAP! simple. Fixed. When was the last time any of you SAW cork taint in a bottle shop?
www.vinographic.com

WineRick
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by WineRick »

Panda 9D wrote:
WineRick wrote:Also,under screwcap, how can you tell if the wine has had a good 'cooking'?


The cap is slightly domed if it has been thrashed.


And in winter, in a cold storage situation, that dome will be sucked backed in. So then pop into the Spring Auctions! Sorry for my cynicism but
I've seen, in many arenas of wine presentation, a large number of screw-capped wines looking 'dopey' when in the 'pop-and-pour' situation. I respect those winemakers who've got screw-caps down pat, but there are many who haven't, and perhaps over -use cu++.

Panda 9D
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:01 am

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Panda 9D »

I've seen my fair share of dented screw caps. I guess the further they travel, the greater the chance of damage is.

Polymer
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:40 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Polymer »

Panda: 1 out of 4 though?

I've seen dented screwcaps...but nothing like 1 out of 4..You figure if they're dented, they're probably not going to sell them...so they're much more likely to switch to Luxe if that was the case...

And 8% failure rate? As in something is wrong with it? I haven't heard/seen that either..by any wineries, stores, etc...

I can definitely see the argument that Stelvin can be damaged..but these numbers seem way off the charts....

I mean, how many bottles have people had from messed up screw caps in here? I rarely ever hear of it..I know it happens..I know it can happen....but we should be seeing a lot more reports of this if that was the case...

Panda 9D
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:01 am

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Panda 9D »

No, not one in four. I'm not necessarily agreeing with the numbers there.. but I have always wondered how much of a knock it takes to break the seal.

User avatar
dave vino
Posts: 1505
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:23 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by dave vino »

It's only $8.80 for the article (7 pages)

User avatar
ufo
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:36 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by ufo »

Just another smear attack at unstoppable takeover of screw cap over cork, total nonsense.
First of all, as one of the posts said, why would you buy a bottle from a shop if it has cap damage? If it is coming thru post and comes out of box with damaged cap, any decent winery will replace it. Besides, I had so many bottles with damaged cap delivered to me (lovely wine delivery service of AU Post) none what soever had any leakage or any compromise of the seal. Oldest ones I have are Marius 2002 Shiraz, for some reason entire dozen had scrapped/dented caps (Roger kindly offered to replace them all but I said I'll see how it goes), so far had 7 bottles out of 12, all of them kept the wine in pristine condition. If you are concerned in any way, just lay the bottle sideways for a while, if it is not leaking, seal is intact, that simple. I’ve just had some Coldstream wines delivered; one had a considerable dent on the cap, kept it sideways for a week, no leak, no problem, not a worry.
Of course I am not claiming that screw cap is un-destructible but most of the damage seen due to negligent handling has no effect on the integrity of the seal.
RIP cork, amen.

User avatar
ticklenow1
Posts: 1108
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 pm
Location: Gold Coast

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by ticklenow1 »

I find that wine fridges do as much damage as I'm trying to get bottles to fit. I have managed to dent a few, but like ufo, the dented caps have never given me any trouble wine quality wise. I've only ever had 2 dud bottles of screw capped wine and they were probably just that - dud bottles. That does happen.

About the only drawback with screw caps is the wine can be a bit reductive when it's young, but this does blow off with a good airing.

Crown seals on Sparkling wines should be the next crusade.......

Cheers
Ian
If you had to choose between drinking great wine or winning Lotto, which would you choose - Red or White?

sjw_11
Site Admin
Posts: 1939
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:10 pm
Location: London

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by sjw_11 »

Guys I am enjoying the debate as always, and agree in my view the extent of issues found seemed surprisingly large... but can we try and limit the remarks that tend to impugn the integrity of the author of the paper (especially in a situation where none of us have yet read the full methodology)?

Remember this is someone's 12,000 word MW dissertation, the high point of their professional training...
------------------------------------
Sam

burgster
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:15 am

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by burgster »

Obviously the 8.2% weren't actually sampled, the damage just looked significant enough to "potentially" cause problems.

And as people have mentioned, if the cap looks damaged just don't buy that bottle. There is no way of telling if a wine is potentially corked just by looking at the bottle.

I must have 500 screwcap bottles in my cellar and I have never pulled out one with a damaged cap or faulty wine.

User avatar
Scotty vino
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:48 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Scotty vino »

can someone please post a picture of a damaged screw cap? :P
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

sjw_11
Site Admin
Posts: 1939
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:10 pm
Location: London

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by sjw_11 »

This one appears to have been so damaged it has become completely separate from the bottle :lol:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
------------------------------------
Sam

Polymer
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:40 pm

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Polymer »

Well, that's just it though...If really there was 8% damaged that bad, surely that would cause some alarms for wineries that need to replace them? Or if 26% were damaged enough for people not to buy them, that in and of itself is a cause for concern.

Sam - It isn't her integrity...As I said, I don't think she made up numbers...but I do question her ability to understand statistics....Wine people aren't stats people...and maybe I'm completely wrong and 1 out of 4 bottles are damaged...but no one has seen any empirical evidence to support that....if 8% were possibly damaged enough to cause issues where the bottle would be replaced, wouldn't wineries be concerned about that? It isn't like they can take it back and reseal....It would, according to the summary, be an automatic for most places to go to Luxe given the costs of needing to replace 8% of their bottles...or even given the remainder of the 26%..some of which is damaged and buyers are ok..but like someone said, if you saw a damaged screwcap you wouldn't buy it...so if you take a stab at half of the damaged bottles are owned by end drinkers already...so half of 18% so 9%...and 9% are damaged in stores..and if you assume half of those get sold cause people don't know...that's still 4.5%...we're looking at 12%+ of their bottles that are "dead".

I fully admit, she could be right and we just don't know....it just seems like from most people's experience, the numbers aren't anything close to that...and certainly you'd have heard something about this before...

User avatar
Scotty vino
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:48 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Scotty vino »

sjw_11 wrote:This one appears to have been so damaged it has become completely separate from the bottle :lol:

ha. love your work. :wink:
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

User avatar
ufo
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:36 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by ufo »

sjw_11 wrote:Guys I am enjoying the debate as always, and agree in my view the extent of issues found seemed surprisingly large... but can we try and limit the remarks that tend to impugn the integrity of the author of the paper (especially in a situation where none of us have yet read the full methodology)?

Remember this is someone's 12,000 word MW dissertation, the high point of their professional training...

Does not matter what level of expertise she has, the prejudice will get her nowhere.

User avatar
ufo
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:36 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by ufo »

[quote="Polymer"]Well, that's just it though...If really there was 8% damaged that bad, surely that would cause some alarms for wineries that need to replace them? Or if 26% were damaged enough for people not to buy them, that in and of itself is a cause for concern.

Sam - It isn't her integrity...As I said, I don't think she made up numbers...but I do question her ability to understand statistics....Wine people aren't stats people...and maybe I'm completely wrong and 1 out of 4 bottles are damaged...but no one has seen any empirical evidence to support that....if 8% were possibly damaged enough to cause issues where the bottle would be replaced, wouldn't wineries be concerned about that? It isn't like they can take it back and reseal....It would, according to the summary, be an automatic for most places to go to Luxe given the costs of needing to replace 8% of their bottles...or even given the remainder of the 26%..some of which is damaged and buyers are ok..but like someone said, if you saw a damaged screwcap you wouldn't buy it...so if you take a stab at half of the damaged bottles are owned by end drinkers already...so half of 18% so 9%...and 9% are damaged in stores..and if you assume half of those get sold cause people don't know...that's still 4.5%...we're looking at 12%+ of their bottles that are "dead".

I fully admit, she could be right and we just don't know....it just seems like from most people's experience, the numbers aren't anything close to that...and certainly you'd have heard something about this before...[/quote]

Spot on.

User avatar
ufo
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:36 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by ufo »

Scotty vino wrote:can someone please post a picture of a damaged screw cap? :P


Here they are

IMG_2013.JPG


IMG_2011.JPG


See the dent on the left one. The shiny part on right which looks like flash reflection is actually a considerable scratch.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Scotty vino
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:48 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Scotty vino »

ufo wrote:
Scotty vino wrote:can someone please post a picture of a damaged screw cap? :P


Here they are

IMG_2013.JPG


IMG_2011.JPG


See the dent on the left one. The shiny part on right which looks like flash reflection is actually a considerable scratch.


is this just superficial damage to the cap or something more serious?
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

User avatar
ufo
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:36 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by ufo »

The small dent on the left one is quite deep. When I saw it I thought it would leak but kept it sideways for a week no leak at all. The other one is a deep scratch as if someone help angle grinder against it but again no leak.

User avatar
sparky
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:35 am
Location: Sometimes in Melbourne
Contact:

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by sparky »

Scotty vino wrote:can someone please post a picture of a damaged screw cap? :P


OK, try this for something a bit more obvious..
Image

User avatar
Scotty vino
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:48 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Scotty vino »

sparky wrote:
Scotty vino wrote:can someone please post a picture of a damaged screw cap? :P


OK, try this for something a bit more obvious..
Image


crikey that's a whack. Has that pierced through?
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

User avatar
Scotty vino
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:48 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: The problem with screw caps...

Post by Scotty vino »

ufo wrote:The small dent on the left one is quite deep. When I saw it I thought it would leak but kept it sideways for a week no leak at all. The other one is a deep scratch as if someone help angle grinder against it but again no leak.


no leaks is good. :D
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Post Reply