Halliday 2014

[Phil H]

A topic that generates a lot of discussion, especially when you include Penfolds in the same topic. Despite becoming a sceptic on his ratings, I could not resist in obtaining the latest edition. Being in the top 10 Book List at David Jones, I received a 30% discount, paying under $30. I can say I was surprisingly pleased. Quickly flicking through the pages, and reading comments on the wineries and wines I know, I appreciate that overall he has got it right. Once again there is not a great variation in the scores - 90 to 95 with most of the wines. However when you read Best of the Best by Variety, if you wish to invest in establishing your cellar this is a good starting point.
Another resource to be utilised if visiting a wine region which if not familiar points you in the right direction.
Bringing up the topic of Penfolds, having tried and thoroughly enjoyed the 2009 RWT, I thought it interesting he rated this 1 point above the 2010 RWT, despite being a better vintage.

[Chuck]

Agee his ratings are a little generous with too many good but not great wines in the 92-94 range but I do rely on his vast tasting notes when buying older wines from auction. Once you get used to his ratings they are generally reliable.

Carl

[Ddavew]

some of halliday reviews mention wines that are still under cork are "disappointments" and some have strongly stated that it is under "screwcap"which is a big plus for him, to me it looks like he gave wines that has screwcap "higher ratings" than others.

[AndrewCowley]

Saw it today for $39. Have bought it for many years now, but not so sure this year. I'd pay $25.

Incidentally, the Robert Geddes 'gold' book is also out.

Is Jeremy Oliver doing a book this year?

[Chuck]

some of halliday reviews mention wines that are still under cork are "disappointments" and some have strongly stated that it is under "screwcap"which is a big plus for him, to me it looks like he gave wines that has screwcap "higher ratings" than others.

Its a simple fact that wines under SC are just so consistent. Every bottle tastes the same. I'm so over cork. I recently bought 9 bottles of a 97 Clare riesling under cork from auction from a cellar of know provenance. Have had 3 so far and 2 were cork affected.

Carl

[rens]

Saw it today for $39. Have bought it for many years now, but not so sure this year. I'd pay $25.

Incidentally, the Robert Geddes 'gold' book is also out.

Is Jeremy Oliver doing a book this year?

Yes Jeremy Oliver is releasing his book again this year. Read it in an article/advertorial last week

[dave vino]

Halliday has painted himself into a corner with his scoring.

[dan_smee]

You can generally lop a good 2-3 points off most wines and have a good indication. He seems to call anything 88 and below as boring, not flawed, but unexciting, almost bad wine.

I see an 88 as a really solid example, consistent, value for money, but just not offering anything beyond that.

You do know if he rates it a 95 or above that it will be very very good though. He is consistent, just consistently high. I think I buy the book each year because it looks good on the shelf more than anything.

[Red Bigot]

There is a nice non-correlation of prices and point scores:
96 pt Cabernet Sauvignon range from $22 to $323, 97 pt Shiraz range from $35.95 to $443 street prices.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm so over cork.

I'm so over points...................Mahmoud.

[dan_smee]

There is a nice non-correlation of prices and point scores:
96 pt Cabernet Sauvignon range from $22 to $323, 97 pt Shiraz range from $35.95 to $443 street prices.

Let's kick the arse out of the industry then. If someone can produce a 97 point wine for 36 bucks, which morons are paying 323 for 'inferior' wine?

[phillisc]

There is a nice non-correlation of prices and point scores:
96 pt Cabernet Sauvignon range from $22 to $323, 97 pt Shiraz range from $35.95 to $443 street prices.

Let's kick the arse out of the industry then. If someone can produce a 97 point wine for 36 bucks, which morons are paying 323 for 'inferior' wine?

The morons who buy 707, Block 42 and then the morons like me who might buy the occasional greenock creek RR C/S, or John Riddoch, or MM Quintet.

Agreed, for a product that is give or take 86% H2O and 14% C2H5OH seems pretty stupid really and I agree with you.

Cheers
Craig

[dan_smee]

There is a nice non-correlation of prices and point scores:
96 pt Cabernet Sauvignon range from $22 to $323, 97 pt Shiraz range from $35.95 to $443 street prices.

Let's kick the arse out of the industry then. If someone can produce a 97 point wine for 36 bucks, which morons are paying 323 for 'inferior' wine?

The morons who buy 707, Block 42 and then the morons like me who might buy the occasional greenock creek RR C/S, or John Riddoch, or MM Quintet.

Agreed, for a product that is give or take 86% H2O and 14% C2H5OH seems pretty stupid really and I agree with you.

Cheers
Craig

I just read my comment back, and I tihnk the senitment was lost a bit when I typed it. While the basic point I was making stands, I was being semi-facetious - in that I do pay that occasionally. Also, despite what everyone says, sometimes the label IS part of the experience. I was also being semi-facetious in that this is just Halliday's opinion, and I may value a Greenock Creek RR, or a Brokenwood Graveyard more highly than he does, and more highly than the Mistletoe Shiraz he gave the same score to and 100's less RRP.

If people only bought wine based solely on QPR, there would be no market for any wine above $50. I think though, after 50 bucks the cost to quality ratio is much higher, in that there are less bad wines for every good wine at the price point. Paying 250 for an RR on release means you are essentially guarenteed quality, barring TCA, storage etc.

I suppose the point is that there is an artificial base line built into premium reds that don't relate to COGS or 'quality'. I mean, how much can it cost to make the most meticuluos bottle of wine? I'm talking individually selected and sorted grapes a-la d'yquem, best vineyard management, hand picked, all the winery trimmings, how much can all that cost per bottle?

[sjw_11]

Well Torbreck has talked about paying over $12,000/tonne for some of their top grapes (almost unheard of levels), and Kilikanoon is about to release a new challenger to the Granges/HoG level wines to be matured in a barrel made from a tree which was sold for €37K...

So lets assume you buy the BEST and more expensive fruit (and assume concentrated low yielding fruit so say 120 gallons per tonne source: Cornell), hand picked, hand sorted, mature it in a rare and endangered tree, bottle in the largest, heaviest and most expensive glass under the very finest cork...

Hmm if you really go for it you can spend more per bottle than I thought!

Fruit 12,000 Per Torbreck
Oak 5,000 Assumes only the finest
Picking 500 10 transients for 1/4 day
Sorting 500 Similar to picking
Winemking 3,960 2hrs/day for 2wks then 1hr/mth for 3 yrs at $60/hr all in
Overheads 1,000 Including consumables e.g. fining agents
Bottles 7,260 $12/bottle for 605 bottles
Corks 2,420 $4/cork for 605 bottles
Total 32,640
Yield 605.0 bottles (assumes 120 gallons from a tonne of grapes)
Cost/bttl 53.95

And this is ignoring holding costs for the space to store and interest cost on the investment until available for sale!
There is a reason every winery should produce riesling and/or sav blanc (in and out again in a matter of weeks, no oak, no storage!!)

[dlo]

Fruit 12,000 Per Torbreck
Oak 5,000 Assumes only the finest
Picking 500 10 transients for 1/4 day
Sorting 500 Similar to picking
Winemking 3,960 2hrs/day for 2wks then 1hr/mth for 3 yrs at $60/hr all in
Overheads 1,000 Including consumables e.g. fining agents
Bottles 7,260 $12/bottle for 605 bottles
Corks 2,420 $4/cork for 605 bottles
Total 32,640
Yield 605.0 bottles (assumes 120 gallons from a tonne of grapes)
Cost/bttl 53.95

sjw,

you forgot two things - labels and the cost of buying Seppeltsfield ..... "clink" ..... decimal point moves one place to the right .....

[dan_smee]

Well Torbreck has talked about paying over $12,000/tonne for some of their top grapes (almost unheard of levels), and Kilikanoon is about to release a new challenger to the Granges/HoG level wines to be matured in a barrel made from a tree which was sold for €37K...

So lets assume you buy the BEST and more expensive fruit (and assume concentrated low yielding fruit so say 120 gallons per tonne source: Cornell), hand picked, hand sorted, mature it in a rare and endangered tree, bottle in the largest, heaviest and most expensive glass under the very finest cork...

Hmm if you really go for it you can spend more per bottle than I thought!

Fruit 12,000 Per Torbreck
Oak 5,000 Assumes only the finest
Picking 500 10 transients for 1/4 day
Sorting 500 Similar to picking
Winemking 3,960 2hrs/day for 2wks then 1hr/mth for 3 yrs at $60/hr all in
Overheads 1,000 Including consumables e.g. fining agents
Bottles 7,260 $12/bottle for 605 bottles
Corks 2,420 $4/cork for 605 bottles
Total 32,640
Yield 605.0 bottles (assumes 120 gallons from a tonne of grapes)
Cost/bttl 53.95

And this is ignoring holding costs for the space to store and interest cost on the investment until available for sale!
There is a reason every winery should produce riesling and/or sav blanc (in and out again in a matter of weeks, no oak, no storage!!)

53.95 is far less than i expected. Very interesting! Thanks for that.

So on the 33/33/33 principle of retail (I know it doesn't directly translate) NO bottle should be worth more than 150ish?

[sjw_11]

53.95 is far less than i expected. Very interesting! Thanks for that.

So on the 33/33/33 principle of retail (I know it doesn't directly translate) NO bottle should be worth more than 150ish?

Actually, these numbers also ignore tax... so remember there is a WET of about 28% of the value add plus a 10% VAT/GST (though your cost may include some input credits)... so if you sell for say $150, there is going to be a taxman cut of ~$60ish (ignoring income tax on any profits!!)

And most wine is sold through a distributer who also wants a cut... A wine you have spent $50 to make is therefore probably low to mid $200s in minimum RRP on the shelf in Australia...

Bear in mind though that paying $12,000/tonne of grapes is extremely atypical (compare e.g. Henscke which own their vineyards as a very low legacy cost as in the family for generations - they make this diff as extra profit), as I am sure would be spending $5K on brand new oak every year per single tonne of grapes!! Thats a pretty expensive couple of barriques!! I was more trying to set a "high water mark"

Below is my guess for producing a "reasonable to good quality" wine rather than the Taj Mahal, again assuming for simplicity you were to buy in the fruit:

Fruit 1,000 1 tonne reasonable quality fruit not in a drought year
Oak - Assumes old oak or steel only (in the overhead charge)
Picking 200 Machine
Sorting - Machine sorted
Winemking 600 Much less intensive
Overheads 500 Including consumables e.g. fining agents, lower as less time intensive
Bottles 2,420 $4/bottle for 605 bottles
Corks 303 $0.50/cork or other closure
Total 5,023
Yield 650.0 better yield as fruit less concentrated
Cost/bttl 7.73

Checking the net, avg red wine grap prices are sitting around $600/tonne (Riverland fruit c$300/tonne!)... if you allowed $2,000/tonne instead that lifts the estimate to $9.27.

[phillisc]

Sam, I am lost with all the figures but not surprised that Kilikanoon want to push the boundaries a bit...the MOST expensive wines in Clare bar the Armagh ( which has a bit of cred).

Wines like HoG and Grange also incur 5 years of excise, the greedy government want their coin for every year a litre of ethanol is in bond.

I don't know where I sit with all this...but my income dictates my purchases...I feel the pain of buying $100 bottles for a fair while...if I was on a big 6 figures or even 7 a year then it would not matter and is clearly very much the case for some.

When Peter Gago trotted out that line to Philip White many years ago "A Grange costs about $25 bucks to make"...well it leaves me wondering in very poor years like 1995, 2000, 2011 is it really worth anymore than that?

Still I am forever grateful that Wendouree remains in safe hands...a winery like that in the open market operated by the bean counters at Martin place would see a zero added to the price per bottle.

Cheers
Craig

[Cloth Ears]

I grab Halliday from the library (advantages of having a wife who works there) whenever I want to look something up. Yes, his actual scores don't seem to reflect a real range, but very often comparing one of his 94's with one of his 95's does show a definite difference. Also, I think (with Halliday) that you have to take longevity into account for some of his scoring. While a wine that's only going to survive 5 years (even with screwcap) may get the same 95 as a wine that's built for the long-term, his scoring does not take that into account. Whereas others do include this in their scoring process.

Had a bottle of '05 Kilikanoon Oracle Shiraz the other night, and I'd stack that up against the Armagh any day of the week. Not saying either is better, but both in the same class. But then, I preferred the Oracle to the Attunga, from the latest vintage, when we were there last year - so maybe it's my tastes...!

[Nick11]

Well Torbreck has talked about paying over $12,000/tonne for some of their top grapes (almost unheard of levels), and Kilikanoon is about to release a new challenger to the Granges/HoG level wines to be matured in a barrel made from a tree which was sold for €37K...

So lets assume you buy the BEST and more expensive fruit (and assume concentrated low yielding fruit so say 120 gallons per tonne source: Cornell), hand picked, hand sorted, mature it in a rare and endangered tree, bottle in the largest, heaviest and most expensive glass under the very finest cork...

Hmm if you really go for it you can spend more per bottle than I thought!

Fruit 12,000 Per Torbreck
Oak 5,000 Assumes only the finest
Picking 500 10 transients for 1/4 day
Sorting 500 Similar to picking
Winemking 3,960 2hrs/day for 2wks then 1hr/mth for 3 yrs at $60/hr all in
Overheads 1,000 Including consumables e.g. fining agents
Bottles 7,260 $12/bottle for 605 bottles
Corks 2,420 $4/cork for 605 bottles
Total 32,640
Yield 605.0 bottles (assumes 120 gallons from a tonne of grapes)
Cost/bttl 53.95

And this is ignoring holding costs for the space to store and interest cost on the investment until available for sale!
There is a reason every winery should produce riesling and/or sav blanc (in and out again in a matter of weeks, no oak, no storage!!)

53.95 is far less than i expected. Very interesting! Thanks for that.

So on the 33/33/33 principle of retail (I know it doesn't directly translate) NO bottle should be worth more than 150ish?

Except that on top of that $150, there is one more factor from economics....

called supply and demand.

[Michael R]

...there is one more factor from economics....
called supply and demand

+1 !!
(visualise 'ring the bell' emoticon here)

[damonpeyo]

I see an 88 as a really solid example, consistent, value for money, but just not offering anything beyond that.

+ 1 - argeed

[phillisc]

First time in 15 years will not be purchasing JH's "bible". Of the many wineries that I follow, reviews the SAME as last year or no new releases.
Same with gourmet traveller wine, after 13 straight years of buying the quality has dropped off and the level of advertisements have gone up.....6 page ad for wynnsday.....sheesh

Get everything I need from the well informed here at Auswine...Cheers Gav


Craig.

[tarija]

JH Bible is good for travelling in wine regions, or finding out about new wineries. For these 2 purposes, there is nothing remotely close in Australia...and for these purposes, Halliday's book is a bargain.