Getting into French wine

[waistcoat]

I'm still quite thoroughly exploring everything Aus has to offer, but I'm starting to get curious about Bordeaux and Burgundy. Any ideas on where I should start? Looking particularly for stuff under $30 a bottle.
What sort of difference can I expect between their wines and ours? I guess I'm after what your experiences are and what you think. Are French wines overrated? Underrated? Just different?

[KMP]

Are French wines overrated? Underrated? Just different?

All three. Some of the best and worst wines I've had have been French; certainly the worst wine. I can't comment on what's available in Oz but in the US $30 would just buy you a reasonable bottle of either Bordeaux or Burgundy, double it and you are starting to talk quality. Here in the US all the fuss at present is about 2010 Burgundy. The few bottles I have had of the 2010's back that up. Well worth spending money on.

Mike

[Panda 9D]

2009/10 gave plenty of nice, cheap Bordeaux and Burgundy but if you really want to know what all the fuss is about, be prepared to cough up much more than $30. You might get a passable Bordeaux for $30 but you won't know "ahhh THAT'S what Pomerol tastes like, that's what Paulliac tastes like". Same goes for Burgundy.

Good Cru Beaujolais are possible to get for under $30 (I think?). Whites from Alsace. $30 will almost always get you a better Australian wine though (assuming you live in Australia). Instead of getting 3 $30 bottles, I'd get one $100 bottle if you want Bordeaux or Burgundy.

[dlo]

Probably not the best time to start delving into French wine. Prices for the really good reds have gone through the roof over recent years with the secondary market for back vintages similarly overheated. Perhaps wait until the proverbial bubble bursts, but there's only cracks around the edges presently, no meltdown in sight. Demand for anything French worth seeking out is still outstripping supply in many of the top appellations.

The points made above about dollar value (QPR = Quality/Price Ratio) are valid and well worth careful consideration before venturing into the French wine minefields!

But overall, my best advice is to read, research, then read a lot more and keep on reading and researching until you have a grip on the regions, makers, vintages and especially the different styles of wine and, particularly in the better years (not too hot and/or too wet). I did this for many years before I started buying European wines ad nausuem, circa early 90's. I only buy odd bottles these days and virtually nothing of the high end stuff. Invest time and money in knowledge before you start spending heaps on the wine.

Good luck!

[Matt]

Try Mouton Rouge Cadet for around $11/$12. Really decent quaffer however lacks a sustained finish. Good entry level Bordeaux imo. Have been stung spending more.

[Polymer]

It is getting better but there aren't really any good values, French wine wise, in Australia...

In a competitive market place, you can indeed find very good Bordeaux at 30..and a little more and you're well into a large chunk of the growths...

With some of the lesser known areas, you might find some better deals in Australia...but really you end up with so little outside of Bordeaux/Burg and maybe some Rhone...and even with those you end up with only a handful...the selection is just far too limited.

This doesn't even get into the people that have it in their heads that French wine > Australian no matter what....they start gushing over some 50 dollar Bordeaux when in reality, you can buy that same Bordeaux in a competitive market place for 13 dollars...and why is that important? Because if it was really that great it wouldn't be 13 dollars...

Don't get me wrong, stylistically I enjoy French and Italian wines a bit more than Australian but that's when I can buy in a competitive market place. In Australia you get far better drinking value out of Australian wine..

[dingozegan]

I almost never bother buying Burgundy or Bordeaux under A$30 in Australia - Australia's wine taxation regime just means it's not worth it IMO (better to save on two or three $30 bottles and spend $60 or $90, as Panda 9D similarly suggested). The range of French wines available in Australia isn't too bad (considering), it's just that the prices are painfully high relative to other countries and to Australian-made wine.

However, I think good value can be found sub-$30 in wines from French regions other than Burgundy or Bordeaux (e.g., Beaujolais, the Loire and Alsace). For the money, some French "natural" wines (as in the "natural wine" movement) can offer particularly good value, assuming you enjoy the style.

Another aspect of this whole issue is stylistic preference. If you appreciate subtler/lighter/more astringent/less "ripe" wines, as a generalised example, you might find many $60 French wines more preferrable to many $60 Aussie wines.

I'd echo David L's recommendations to research regions and producers, then buy single bottles and see what you enjoy.

[dave vino]

I agree with Dingo maybe look to Beaujolais and Cote du Rhone wines for good value French. Les Courtilles Cotes du Rhone is about $18-$20 a bottle and is a great drop for the money.

For whites look to Chablis instead of Burgundy, and Loire for Vouvrays (Chenin Blanc) which are always a good qpr wine. (Marc Bredif Vouvray ages superbly)

[GraemeG]

Yep, polymer and dingozegan have it right.
Prices here are laughable, and that's even with the current exchange rates.
shame.
GG

[Polymer]

However, I think good value can be found sub-$30 in wines from French regions other than Burgundy or Bordeaux (e.g., Beaujolais, the Loire and Alsace). For the money, some French "natural" wines (as in the "natural wine" movement) can offer particularly good value, assuming you enjoy the style.

Another aspect of this whole issue is stylistic preference. If you appreciate subtler/lighter/more astringent/less "ripe" wines, as a generalised example, you might find many $60 French wines more preferrable to many $60 Aussie wines.

I'd echo David L's recommendations to research regions and producers, then buy single bottles and see what you enjoy.

The sub 30 dollar Beaujolais I find to be ok here. In other countries, there is a price point around 16/17 dollars where the quality of Beaujolais jumps quite a bit...And you start getting into the top Beaujolais...and more so as you reach into the 20s..with only a handful getting close to 30. Here the sub 30 dollar ones tend to be the 12-14 dollar type Beaujolais (sorry to keep referring to normal type pricing). What I've seen in Australia is the upper tier Beaujolais seem like they start around 40ish..which I guess too too bad...I guess to be fair, they still represent reasonably good value...even if you pay 2.5times what you should...

I agree that stylistically you might prefer an overpriced 60 dollar French bottle to a 60 dollar Aussie one...I can think of many examples of which I'd rather drink..but I doubt I'd call them a better wine...Or maybe that is just the way I think of it..what I prefer to drink and what I consider a better wine (quality wise) I consider different..

[Mark Carrington]

For value in Bordeaux try Fronsac, Côtes de Bourg, Côtes de Bordeaux (merger of several minor left bank appellations from 2009), Graves. Or from just outside the region. Bergerac
As an alternative & usually VFM try Cab Franc from Loire- some growers to seek out: Amirault, Bernard Baudry, Villeneuve.
Good value in Burgundy is a lite trickier. Assuming it's red you're after, Cote Chalonnaise (ie Mercurey or Givry) offers relative value. I'd recommend buying Hugh Johnson Pocket Wine Book - last year's edition should suffice & follow recommended growers.
The up & coming region is Languedoc-Roussillon. Recommendations are difficult: change has been rapid & remains dynamic.
Happy hunting.

[daz]

Why bother? The range of terroir in Australia is far greater than in France and there are many more older vines here than there. The only French wine other than an occasional champagne that I've tried, on a whim at 1st Choice, was a very ordinary chardonnay that I thought very poor qpr.

[waistcoat]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I was a bit confused regarding the prices - I didn't realise that a $30 French wine in Aus is actually only worth half that or less, now it all makes sense. I really love Australian wines so I might even leave the French stuff for a while, I just see/hear so much talk about them that I feel like I have to try them...

[AndrewCowley]

Why bother? The range of terroir in Australia is far greater than in France and there are many more older vines here than there. The only French wine other than an occasional champagne that I've tried, on a whim at 1st Choice, was a very ordinary chardonnay that I thought very poor qpr.

This.

[Polymer]

Why bother? The range of terroir in Australia is far greater than in France and there are many more older vines here than there. The only French wine other than an occasional champagne that I've tried, on a whim at 1st Choice, was a very ordinary chardonnay that I thought very poor qpr.

Certainly there is no point with the selection and pricing in Australia....

But in a global sense...Australian wine is having a hard time competing..especially with the high AUD....At most given price points (outside of Australia) they're getting beat up pretty bad...with many making it into the closeout bin...

I've bought a good amount of Australia wine overseas but it is always like

Rockford BP at around 30
Grant Burge Meshach 30 dollars
Shaw and Smith M3 Chard 9 dollars

The old vines are irrelevant...

[dingozegan]

Thanks for all the advice guys... the French... I just see/hear so much talk about them

I would encourage you to do so, but to choose wisely.

Why bother? The range of terroir in Australia is far greater than in France and there are many more older vines here than there. The only French wine other than an occasional champagne that I've tried, on a whim at 1st Choice, was a very ordinary chardonnay that I thought very poor qpr.

Why bother? Because there are a fair few French wines that have no peers in terms of style, and there are a fair few French wines that are amongst the best (if not the best) examples of their style in the world.

As much as Australia has a variety of different climatic and geological conditions, in terms of the variety of actual wine styles (and grape varieties) in simply cannot compete with the range that's available from France.

In other countries, there is a price point around 16/17 dollars where the quality of Beaujolais jumps quite a bit...And you start getting into the top Beaujolais...and more so as you reach into the 20s..with only a handful getting close to 30... What I've seen in Australia is the upper tier Beaujolais seem like they start around 40ish.... they still represent reasonably good value...even if you pay 2.5times what you should...

Yes, I find the same thing as the above, though I guess it depends on the countries we're talking about as to the exact price points. In France, many of the best of Beaujolais can easily be purchased for A$15, but in other countries in Northern Europe the same wines often sell closer to A$25.

I agree that stylistically you might prefer an overpriced 60 dollar French bottle to a 60 dollar Aussie one...I can think of many examples of which I'd rather drink..but I doubt I'd call them a better wine...Or maybe that is just the way I think of it..what I prefer to drink and what I consider a better wine (quality wise) I consider different..

Are you saying you would often prefer the $60 French wine to the $60 Aussie, but would consider the $60 Aussie to be a "better" wine (whatever "better" means here?)?

[bob parsons]

I agree with Dingo maybe look to Beaujolais and Cote du Rhone wines for good value French. Les Courtilles Cotes du Rhone is about $18-$20 a bottle and is a great drop for the money.

For whites look to Chablis instead of Burgundy, and Loire for Vouvrays (Chenin Blanc) which are always a good qpr wine. (Marc Bredif Vouvray ages superbly)

+1.....`09/`10 Beaujolly is superb. CdR is still a good price, many QPR there, at least here in Alberta. Do not forget the Jura either, if available in your area.

[bob parsons]

I agree with Dingo maybe look to Beaujolais and Cote du Rhone wines for good value French. Les Courtilles Cotes du Rhone is about $18-$20 a bottle and is a great drop for the money.

For whites look to Chablis instead of Burgundy, and Loire for Vouvrays (Chenin Blanc) which are always a good qpr wine. (Marc Bredif Vouvray ages superbly)

+1.....`09/`10 Beaujolly is superb. CdR is still a good price, many QPR there, at least here in Alberta. Do not forget the Jura either, if available in your area. Best to avoid that Mouton Cadet

[Polymer]

In other countries, there is a price point around 16/17 dollars where the quality of Beaujolais jumps quite a bit...And you start getting into the top Beaujolais...and more so as you reach into the 20s..with only a handful getting close to 30... What I've seen in Australia is the upper tier Beaujolais seem like they start around 40ish.... they still represent reasonably good value...even if you pay 2.5times what you should...

Yes, I find the same thing as the above, though I guess it depends on the countries we're talking about as to the exact price points. In France, many of the best of Beaujolais can easily be purchased for A$15, but in other countries in Northern Europe the same wines often sell closer to A$25.

Well, France isn't necessarily the best place to buy the wine either in some cases...When I talk wine prices I'm talking specifically a competitive market place which to me generally means something like the US, HKG or even the UK. Granted, I haven't really looked hard for Beaujolais in France...not when most of the stuff I want I can find for 17-24 dollars..with a few exceptions...

I agree that stylistically you might prefer an overpriced 60 dollar French bottle to a 60 dollar Aussie one...I can think of many examples of which I'd rather drink..but I doubt I'd call them a better wine...Or maybe that is just the way I think of it..what I prefer to drink and what I consider a better wine (quality wise) I consider different..

Are you saying you would often prefer the $60 French wine to the $60 Aussie, but would consider the $60 Aussie to be a "better" wine (whatever "better" means here?)?

If we're talking AUD in Australia...Stylistically I can see myself or others preferring the French wine...mainly because there are still some styles in Australia that I'm sure I wouldn't prefer to drink..not that I don't appreciate the wine but they're just too big...But at the same time, that doesn't mean I don't think the Australian wine is of higher quality...It just means I would prefer a more medium bodied (In global terms) wine to a very super full bodied fruit bomb one. It also doesn't mean that I'd prefer it that way every day..some days I don't mind having that big big wine.. I'm sure there are some cases where even the 20 dollar Bordeaux selling for 60+ here I might even think is better quality wise but that can happen even if you're comparing OZ to OZ. It can also happen in reverse where the cheaper Australian wine I think is of better quality than a more expensive French wine (in global terms). I'm just stating on average, the 60 dollar French bottle here in Australia is actually a pretty low end bottle in other places...and while some can be quite good and quite enjoyable, they're just not selling on a level playing field.

[Dave Dewhurst]

[I'm just stating on average, the 60 dollar French bottle here in Australia is actually a pretty low end bottle in other places...and while some can be quite good and quite enjoyable, they're just not selling on a level playing field.

Yup, agreed. I have been bringing stuff back from the US for a while now that is $40-50 over there and $150-200 here for the same bottle, same vintage.

Cheers

Dave

[Polymer]

Yeah...I will say that some prices have dropped...The two big boys are starting to bring more stuff in and prices have dropped a bit. I actually saw some competitive prices on some Burgs which was surprising, it was good to see. I also think that Italian wine seems to be priced far better. Someone told me Italian wine had a bad reputation in Australia many years ago which is why it isn't priced as high...

I do think Australian winemakers need the competition to push them..I think Australian consumers need to have real choice. I think a bit of a rough patch for the industry will allow the industry to come back stronger..better cost basis..and in a better position to compete globally...I'm not sure that happens the right way with the way the industry is protected. I still don't understand how NZ wine is more expensive in AU number wise than in NZ (so a 40 NZD wine might be 60AUD in Australia).

[tonym]

I bought a bottle of Ch Belrose Moncaillou, which was quite drinkable with very soft tanins for the sum of $16 at Dans. I have tried a few of the budget priced Bordeaux and this is one of the nicest so far. This is classified as a Grand Vin De Bordeaux from the appellation of Bordeaux Superieur I think to get the real feel of French wine you need to get a wine from Pomerol or Pauillac or the Haut-Medoc maybe a 5th growth that would keep the price around $60 or so.just my opinion as I am relativly new to the wine scene and am not prepared to spend that amount on a single bottle yet as I tend to see a lot more value in Australian wine at the $20 to $40 range.

[milky]

When I lived in Adelaide, I drank Aussie wines... plenty to keep you interested & occupied. And, cheaper (= value!)
I remember I've only ever drank 3 French wines there: E. Guigal, MonRedon & Delas Frere (all Cotes du Rhone)

Now, living in Singapore, I still drink a lot of Aussie wines, with plenty of French, Italian & Spanish wines thrown in.
Reason: pricing for all are somewhat more level-playing.
A fair proportion of French wines I've tasted are not comparable to Aussie wines at the same price point, imo.
But, they are just so different. Each country's wines are different.

So, in conclusion:
- When in Aust, drink mainly Aussie wines & buy other countries' wines only when a good deal is spotted
- When travelling overseas, drink non-Aussie wines for exposure
- In all, just drink as widely as possible to bring depth & breadth to your personal wine education!

Cheers!

[Boyeah]

When I lived in Adelaide, I drank Aussie wines... plenty to keep you interested & occupied. And, cheaper (= value!)
I remember I've only ever drank 3 French wines there: E. Guigal, MonRedon & Delas Frere (all Cotes du Rhone)

Now, living in Singapore, I still drink a lot of Aussie wines, with plenty of French, Italian & Spanish wines thrown in.
Reason: pricing for all are somewhat more level-playing.
A fair proportion of French wines I've tasted are not comparable to Aussie wines at the same price point, imo.
But, they are just so different. Each country's wines are different.

So, in conclusion:
- When in Aust, drink mainly Aussie wines & buy other countries' wines only when a good deal is spotted
- When travelling overseas, drink non-Aussie wines for exposure
- In all, just drink as widely as possible to bring depth & breadth to your personal wine education!

Cheers!

Well said!
cheers
Boyeah