Starting a cellar

[waistcoat]

So I'm looking to build my own cellar under the stairs which I think should hold maybe 50ish bottles comfortably (by the time I'm looking to expand hopefully we'll be ready to buy our own house). I'm after your advice as to what I should put in it, as in specific brands/labels/vintages. The varietals I'd be looking at would be:

Riesling
Semillon
Chardonnay
Shiraz (making up the majority of the reds)
Cabernet sauvignon (just a few to try really, not a huge fan of the varietal)
Pinot? (I've never tried a pinot with any age to it, not sure how age changes it)
Any other red you might suggest.

Price range is anywhere up to $100 per bottle, but obviously the cheaper the better. I'm also on the lookout for anything that's already been cellared for just a little while and still reasonably priced (anything from 2000 onwards I guess) so I'm that much closer to being able to drink it. Ideally what I'd like is a few that will be in their prime after 20 or so years, a few at the 15 year mark, but mostly those which will be in their prime within the next ten. Cheers.

[Craig(NZ)]

One piece of advice

Even though you are not a huge fan of cabernet sauvignon I would advise out of your 50 bottles you put away half a dozen of these.

1) Your palate WILL change, and I can guarantee as you move forward in your wine experience you will appreciate this style more and more
2) It is a style that isn't so trendy in Australia and NZ and for the money there are some good options around
3) I think from my experience it cellars/ improves in the cellar more than shiraz

I am a little short on totally up to date knowledge on Aussie Cabernets but

2009 Wynns John Riddoch
Look at some WA stuff eg Moss Wood for something really classical. Guys here could advise vintage or check out langtons vintage charts

From NZ Te Mata Coleraine is a good sub $100 option (05,07,09,10) and should be drinking well perhaps a little earlier than most top aussies (10-15 years from vintage)

French stuff is a little problematic at the moment with some very good/ outstanding but very highly priced vintages on the shelves. Personally i think it is hard to find a $50 Bordeaux that competes with a NZ/Aussie at that price point. They seem overpriced. There may be the odd exception which perhaps other folks herre may highlight for you.

Buy em and forget about them for 10 years

[DJ]

50 bottles is only about 4 dozen so one of the most important things will be to have other things to drink while you wait for them to age. I solved this by having my wine under my parents place 150km away when I started. You might consider using professional storage so it is off site. I wouldn't be thinking round the $100 mark when starting out - I'd be thinking under $50 as a rule. Have you tried any aged wines and do you know what you like?

Core cellar starters in Australia have been things like Wynns Coonawarra Cab Sav (Black Label), Penfolds Bin 389 and Penfolds Kalimna Bin 28. Not as cheap as they once were but have the history and are a great place to start.
Shiraz I would add things like Turkey Flat, get on the mailing list for Marius.

I'd think about the regions I like, especially for certain varieties
Cabernet - I'm on a Margaret River kick at the moment, Woodlands, Voyager, etc, and while unfashionable I love the Barossas such as Mamre Brook and Turkey Flat
Semillon - the Hunter is obvious, Tyrrells (especially Vat 1) and McWilliams Mt Pleasant, look out for Meerea Park. My problem with Semillon is I really think it only really begins to go great at 10 to 15 years old
Riesling - Clare & Eden Valleys are a good start but look out for Victoria, WA, Tassie and Canberra (and Alsace and Germany - well perhaps one day), St Helga, Steingarten, Seppelt Drumborg, Pikes, Petaluma and of course if the budget stretches that far Grosset - too many other good ones to name, on special Jim Barry and Richmond Grove Watervale are astonishing value.
Chardonnay - where to start? Margaret River? Voyager, Woodlands and for a little less well know Happs. Yarra Valley, Mornington, Geelong, Adelaide Hills and I even like the odd Hunter.

2010 and 2012 for South Australia is a great place to start. Find a vintage chart from some one like Langtons or James Halliday to give you an indication of which regions for which years. Have fun - but be warned it can suck up a lot of the cash flow - having a budget is quite a good idea. Think about how many bottles you drink over a year and how many of those you want to be aged.

Look out for the good value wines that age pretty well: d'Arenberg Footbolt Shiraz and d'Arrys Original Grenache Shiraz at 5 to 10 years after vintage. Peter Lehmann Barossa Cab Sav say 3 to 10 years after vintage. Houghtons White Classic (the old Houghtons White Burgundy) is great at about 8 to 9 years old

[daz]

Riesling is such a versatile white variety. The Clare region is the most renowned, its sub-regions producing variations on a theme, one of the lesser-known wineries being Wilson Vineyard Estate at Polish River that produces excellent riesling though I lean more to Watervale and Eden Valley with more approachable styles when young. But there are others such as Great Southern WA (Forest Hill Vineyard, Howard Park, Plantagenet) producing rieslings to rival the best from Clare. My first experience of Best's Great Western (Grampians Vic) was the 2011, a stunning wine that just about did my head in with its intense varietal fruit with some sweetness but a drying citrus finish; such was its difference from the style of riesling to which I was accustomed. The 2012 is very similar but not as intense, a new winemaker's first vintage. I think the only Tassie riesling I've tried was Bay of Fires Tigress that was very good so Tassie may be worth looking at.

Chardonnay is another versatile variety with a diversity of styles. Margaret River is WA's premier region but rather expensive. Frankland River, more paricularly Great Southern produce chards that approach, if not equal, the best from MR. Yarra Valley and Mornington Peninsular produce some excellent chards, the former offering generally more affordable qpr. There are a number of other Vic regions producing good chard. In NSW, Orange, Hilltops and Canberra can produce some worthwhile chards and although I've not tried any Hunter for a long time, there are some well-regarded examples. Tasmania, again, reportedly is worth investigation too.

Shiraz!?? There's more to choose of this variety than any other in Australia, well, if combined NZ and Aussie sauv blanc is excluded. I'll back DJ's recommendation of Turkey Flat from Barossa. Teusner is innovative, the wines I've had have all been at least very good, The Riebke a bargain, almost regardless of vintage. Grant Burge Filsell is a favourite in good vintages, can be found for about $24-$28. There are just so many! Thorn Clarke Shotfire is often better than its price. In SA there's also Clare, Langhorne Creek, Eden Valley. McLaren Vale also has many excellent shiraz including D'Arenburg, as mentioned by DJ and Marius has a very good reputation but again, there are just so many. Never really been into Coonawarra shiraz. Not into Hunter reds but there are some well-regarded shiraz wines from there. Victoria produces some excellent cool climate shiraz, Grampians being one of my favourite regions, from the garagiste The Story to Mount Langi Ghiran and Seppelt. Heathcote is reknowned for its shiraz, the Yarra Valley with a good reputation for the variety too though I tried little shiraz from there. I have had plenty of Tahbilk and since the turn of the millenium has turned a corner for most of its wines after a mostly ordinary decade over the 1990s. A couple of bottles of 1986 Shiraz at 20 or so years age was memorable but it was a very good vintage in SE Australia and Tahbilk vintage quality is variable, the best seeming to be 2002, 2004 and 2006 recently, echoes of the Barossa.

Cabernet Sauvignon is almost as versatile as shiraz. The Barossa is less recognised for its cab than shiraz but one of the more memorable cabs I've had was Turkey Flat 2003 from a lesser shiraz vintage. The contestants for best cab are generally considered to be Margaret River and Coonawarra but Great Southern can produce very good cabs as can the Yarra Valley. Never tried any Mount Mary Cabernets but Coldstream Hills Reserve 2000 was memorable. So was Polleters Moonambel 2005 from the Pyrenees. Tahbilk cabernet, particularly the Eric Stevens Purbrick can be excellent from the better vintages. I had a couple of bottles of the standard 1981 around when I had the 86 shiraz, it was perhaps a bit tired but still interesting with some fruit remaining.

Never been into Pinot but Mornington Peninsular and Tasmania seem to be the best Aussie regions. Unzud apparently produces some good ones along with very good, expensive shiraz as well as oceans of cats' piss.

[AndrewCowley]

Here's your vintage chart.

http://www.langtons.com.au/Tools/VintageChart.aspx

Useful when you are buying from older vintages where tasting notes and reviews are less plentiful. Can also help to identify too good to be true deals on back vintages from poor vintage years.

[dlo]

Also think about subscribing to a quality review website like The Wine Front - http://www.winefront.com.au/ for good tasting notes and plenty of healthy feedback from members. Although their scores a mostly a bit on the high side, after a while you'll be able to read between the lines, so to speak, and work off their written word and quality/price ratio to work out what to buy. They best thing about Campbell, Gary and Mike - they possess very reliable palates and have been producing excellent tasting notes/reviews/reco's for many years now and their credibility is intact, unlike many others (who I won't mention here) who chronically overscore/overrate the wines they review.

Brian Handreck's Red Wine Buyer's Guide could also be worth checking out - http://redbigot.info/RBG.htm

Lastly once you've decided on what to buy and roughly how much you're willing to pay, always give our generous site owner, Gavin Trott, a chance to help you with his eclectic range. I'm sure he'll help you with some good suggestions. Just click on the Auswine box in the top left-hand corner of any page on this site to check out what he has on offer.

Good hunting!

[dave vino]

Here is my 2 cents worth for a good 50 bottle starter cellar, I've tried to keep them in the $20-$35 range, no point blowing big money on something you find you don't like. Most of these have more expensive options in their line-up if you wish to 'see what's around the corner'

There is no right answer, so I've tried to keep it All Aussie, easy to get, representative of most varietal specific regions. And most importantly ones I've tried and liked myself. Some have good cellaring potential, the Tahbilks are renowned for their longevity, along with the Wynns Cab Sav.

Get to some tastings, that's the best way to be exposed to numerous wines without shelling out a heap of money.

[rens]

Some excellent points posted by those above.
Reading it reminds me of when I started with my 50 bottle wine fridge. Be careful, I could fill the fridge 10 times over and still have a few spare to drink-wine cellaring is addictive.
You mention in you post about acquiring some wines with some age on them. There are a few ways to get these.
The first is from the winery. Most will periodically release aged stock. Some like Tahbilk have aged releases all the time and at very good prices. Tahbilk aged releases are a great way to see what their wines can do.
Some of the chain stores have aged release programs and you can find a few goodies there at OK prices.
Option 3 is Auctions. Langtons is by far the biggest. The only issues at auction is you do not know what the provenance of the wine is. Probably the one auction house that does examine the provenance of the wines it sells is Wickmans. Although you can not buy with 100% certainty Wickmans gives a good degree of reassurance that what you are buying has been stored appropriately.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Be prepared, you might have to struggle between having to buy a bigger than expected house to store your new addiction versus having already spent most of your money on those wines.

Lots of good suggestions but I must say that your starting premise of the reds being mostly shiraz is boring, and if you develop your interest in wine you are likely to see that. You haven't lived until you taste a well matured cabernet sauvignon or a Bordeaux blend, not to mention other aged examples. I just had a '96 d'Arenberg 'The Custodian' Grenache and it was fantastic, for one taster, it was better than a '90 Pavie Macquin, a St Emillion Grand Cru from Bordeaux. Even if you don't buy imports these days you can get Australian-grown Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Mouvedre, etc.

Just my advice as I started without pre-conceived notions and have never regretted cellaring wines from obscure varietals and regions, in fact I wish I had cellared more of them.

Cheers............................Mahmoud.

[daz]

Here is my 2 cents worth for a good 50 bottle starter cellar, I've tried to keep them in the $20-$35 range, no point blowing big money on something you find you don't like. Most of these have more expensive options in their line-up if you wish to 'see what's around the corner'

There is no right answer, so I've tried to keep it All Aussie, easy to get, representative of most varietal specific regions. And most importantly ones I've tried and liked myself. Some have good cellaring potential, the Tahbilks are renowned for their longevity, along with the Wynns Cab Sav.

Get to some tastings, that's the best way to be exposed to numerous wines without shelling out a heap of money.

Dave, in your list, what's the difference in the sparklers you list as Bay of Fires and Arras? Before being renamed Bay of Fires, the Arras name was a Hardy's label. It's my understanding that Bay of Fires has since been renamed House of Arras, at least for the sparklers. So I'd replace the Bay of Fires on your list with the best available vintage of Freycinet Radenti, preferably 2001. And I'd also specify Arras Grand Vintage, preferably 2004. There are a couple of other Arras labels including Brut Elite Charonnay Pinot Noir NV, EJ Carr Late Disgorged vintage and, of course, Grand Vintage.

This is Halliday's brief history of Bay of Fires:

Hardys purchased its first grapes from Tasmania in 1994 with the aim of further developing and refining its sparkling wines, a process that quickly gave birth to Arras. The next stage was the inclusion of various parcels of chardonnay from Tasmania in the 1998 Eileen Hardy, then the development in 2001 of the Bay of Fires brand, offering wines sourced from various parts of Tasmania. The winery was originally that of Rochecombe, then Ninth Island, and now, of course, Bay of Fires. Its potential has now been fully realised in the most impressive imaginable fashion. Exports to all major markets.

Cheers

daz

[waistcoat]

Wow, I really have to say that you guys rock. So much great advice freely given makes a newbie like me feel welcome. It's really appreciated believe me.

Craig - Your point about my palate changing is well made and I'll definitely take that advice and include more cab sav.

Dave - Thanks a heap for that full list, really appreciate it!

Mahmoud - Point taken about the other varietals, I might take dlo's advice and ask Gavin what he can give me along those lines.

I definitely want to include at least 1 bottle of port in there, any thoughts on that? And finally, I've never tasted an aged sparkling white (I don't like it enough to drink very often, but I'll take a punt and put 1 bottle away) chardonnay, or pinot noir. What can I expect?

[TiggerK]

I most certainly agree with Craig in that your palate will change over time. I think it's fair to say that many of us have started out with a shiraz (or maybe chardonnay) focus, loving plenty of oak and that big, rich, fruity, sun-in-a-bottle aussie yumness. And also fair to say that many of our palates have changed over time as we experience other styles, varietals and particularly aged wines. There's always a soft spot for a big shiraz, no question of that, and with a bit of age on them, even better in most instances! But your growing appreciation of Pinot Noir, Cabernet, Aged Riesling and so on I would say is more likely than not over time. Probably the biggest thing I've learnt in my ten or so years as a wine obsessive is that any wine of quality and/or pedigree will improve substantially with age, and that most good wine is probably drunk too young. Of course many young wines can be fantastic too, and with a small cellar waiting to age, you certainly get to have a lot of fun finding them!

No arguments with my good friend Dave Vino's list, plus I'd throw in a few overseas wines for future tasting moments. Guarantee you won't regret it. Spanish Rioja, NZ Pinot Noir/Syrah/Cab Merlot, German Riesling, Italian Reds, French Rhone Reds, maybe even a modest Bordeaux or two if feeling patient, and up for a bit of research. Let us know if you're looking this way, no doubt there'll be plenty of suggestions! For me as a Kiwi, I'd be biased towards a couple of big name NZ Pinots like Felton Road, Ata Rangi or Martinborough Vineyards would never go astray with at least 5+ years of age on them (08, 09,10 all decent vintages). And maybe a Hawkes Bay Syrah from the 09 or 10 vintage as well, Te Mata Bullnose comes to mind, as well as Craggy Range or Church Road.

Also other varietals as mentioned, Turkey Flat Mourvedre 08 or Teusner Dog Strangler 2010 both very good wines. S.C. Pannell Grenache, Charles Melton Nine Popes etc etc

And don't forget the whites!! My biggest regret is having far too many reds in the cellar and nowhere near enough Champagne, Riesling, Semillon or Chardonnay. Even a few extra years age can make so much difference....

Enjoy the journey and Cheers!
Tim

[Polymer]

I guess I'll be the one with a bit of a different opinion...

If you're on the early end of your wine journey, I'd probably say don't worry about cellaring at this point. If you're geeked out about wine enough to have found forums and started reading/posting on it, you will probably be trying quite a bit, reading quite a bit and your opinions about wine will probably change quite a bit or you may find it doesn't change at all. Most likely you'll develop a fondness for aged wine but you might not....Another thing to consider is if you have a budget for your wine expenditure, you're far better off spending it on stuff you can try now rather than investing on stuff you may or may not like in 10-20 years. If you spent say 40/bottle and you bought 50 bottles..that's 2k. I'd argue you could use that same money for tasting events or even that rare wine dinner to really get a different experience. With auction sites, it isn't too hard to find back vintages to catch you up...or you may find instead of a lot of a single older vintage you'd rather spend your time trying to get verticals of a particular wine so you can compare/contrast them...

There have been a lot of good suggestions here...so I don't really know if you can go wrong...but still, wine is a personal thing..what might be good to 90% of this board might not be right for you..and part of the enjoyment is figuring that out. You definitely don't have to dive to the cellaring part right away...

[daz]

On Polymer's comments, I totally agree that ready-to-drink-now wines are a way to explore varieties, find what you like and extend from there into wines that you would like to try when more mature. It seems you've already started that by listing your preferred varieties but haven't really given any detail of your experiences of them. I am jingoistic, have had a South American red many years ago, a French commercial Chardonnay recently but am content to explore Australian wines given the diversity of, for want of a better term, "terrior" and vintage variability, the latter being a major consideration in any wine-producing region across the world. Quite some years ago I was vacillating whether to have one of the venue's cleanskin sauv blanc or riesling to accompany my meal. The wait person offered to give me a taste of each, I sniffed them and she was amazed that I was able to identify which was which. My comment on the the slatey minerality of the riesling was probably lost on her. Think I went for the riesling on that occasion because it was a fish/white meat main course I'd ordered.

[waistcoat]

I've had a few aged shiraz (Peter Lehmann, Penfolds and a basket press) and a semillon (not sure the label or year, it was 10ish years old and my dad gave it to me because he doesn't like aged whites). Those wines are pretty much the reason I want to get into cellaring. They pretty much all blew my mind with what they did to my palate. It was a few years ago so I had other life concerns at the time and cellaring wasn't on my radar despite the experience. Granted most of them are shiraz, but as I've said in the other thread, until the last year or so that was mostly all I've drunk for the last 5 or so years. Now that I'm a bit more settled, just over 30 and wanting to drink more aged stuff that this is the perfect time for me to start cellaring, albeit on a small scale. All the wines on my list I've drunk a decent amount of except for riesling which I've only just started drinking (and incidentally I finally get what all the fuss is about). I've also been exposed to a few of the other red varietals like durif, grenache, temperanillo etc and don't remember not liking any of them. Not being a wine geek at the time though I was just content to enjoy them and not think any more of it.

[Polymer]

What did you like about the aged wines you had?

My friends that like big wines but like aged ones tend to like that the tannins have softened significantly...so it tastes "smooth". While others still don't like them because most of the fruit is gone.

I was going to mention earlier that Semillon and Riesling you have easy access to now..or at least ones that have started developing nicely....I think Australian Semillon and Riesling are both very underrated globally....

[damonpeyo]

you should look up some of Tahbilk's Marsanne, they can age pretty well and they don't blow the wallet if you want something different of other whites.

[waistcoat]

Polymer, you're definitely right about the tannins softening, but what I really liked about the aged wines I had were the flavours that had developed. Until then I had no idea a red wine wasn't all about the fruit. I could still taste the fruit, but added were all these deep savoury flavours like leather, tobacco and earthiness for lack of a better word. It's just...I don't know. Reading what I just wrote almost doesn't seem to do it justice when I think how utterly transcendent the experience was. With the semillon I had absolutely no idea what to expect since I wasn't much of a white drinker at the time. The mellow fruit, honey and nuts still with some acidity was absolutely sublime. I remember thinking to myself at the time that my father was certifiably insane for not liking this style of wine and just giving it to me. As they say, one man's trash is another man's treasure!

[griff]

I think you did very well in describing those wines waistcoat. I would concur with others in buying up riesling and semillon for the whites as they are great QPR. Hoddles Creek and Mike Press are two go to wineries that are worth cellaring despite the value pricing. Miss those wines over here!

cheers

Carl