Intro and question

[Polymer]

All I can see there is AOC Bourgogne Dave - I thought Polymer only drank Cali and Oregon Chardonnay???

I love those!

We love them because they're similar to Burgundy ....or at least, while they are slightly different, they hit all the notes we want out of Chardonnay.

Its cold here but now I feel like a Chardy...

[maybs]

Where’s the Lafon Monty Dave??? I just want to see the bottle one more time....

[JamieBahrain]

So what Felix is saying, is many contemporary drinkers who say all roads lead to Burgundy, haven't even drunk the really good wines. They probably just read about them.

Not sure about that, Polymer has shared all of these bottles with me, so he has an inkling of all the highs and lows. I daresay he has had way, way more than me at this level. I'm just a happy chappy who is able to go along for the ride when circumstances allow.

Just to clarify, that wasn't in reference to Polymer's post, it was in reference to Felix's post.

I'd love to go deeper on Felix's post. Knocking around with those in the know on the ultra-fine Burgundy market and the role of new Asian demand and scarcity. Bit rude to sidetrack the thread further but I'll pay attention when drinking Burgundy in HKG and I'm sure it will pop up again. I auctioned off an Australian BBQ dinner with endless pours of Rockford SVS and BP shiraz last month and the buyer was the head of an auction house specialising in Burgundy. Hopefully pick up some great snippets.

Recently, more gobsmacked that a bottle of mushroomy Ponsot CdlR from 80's ( ok yes it was very good wine ) if traded would get me a six pack of 2006 Monfortino.

[JamieBahrain]

But generic whatever from a small no name no reputation producer...its pretty bad..it also sells for sub 10 EUR. I don't see a point with this though...all regions have mostly crap wine (by volume) and probably everyone on this board, as educated wine drinkers, drink in that top 5% or even 1%.

We are in disagreement and just to clarify, I wasn't talking of supermarket Bourgogne, I was inclusive of right up and beyond Leroy etc.

For what you are expected to pay for and average Bourgogne will deliver quite high quality from any other region. In my area of interest I can get a Cru Barbaresco perhaps even Barolo. Perhaps the SA fans can chip in with a few shiraz reccos?

[Ian S]

Quality is in the taste of the beholder

Some of us seem to be forgetting that in these arguments.

[JamieBahrain]

Sorry Ian. All roads lead to Burgundy.

[Ian S]

Sorry Ian. All roads lead to Burgundy.

Not what I'm saying

[felixp21]

I am afraid I am not up with the pricing of Burgundy in Australia at the Bourgogne level (although the better Burgundy wines are priced at laughable levels down there) but there are a heap of bottom-end Bourgogne you can pick up for 3-4 euro in most supermarkets in Europe. Not sure that gets you too many cru Italian wines!!!

[felixp21]

and yes, the 3-4 Euro Burgundies are absolute crap.... undrinkable unless it's 4am and you've had a huge night.

[Ozzie W]

No Bourgogne for 3-4 Euro equivalent down in Oz. Prices for 2017 Bourgogne seem to range from $30 - $100+ depending on producer. I recently bought a 2017 Mark Haisma Bourgogne to try for $68. It barely scratched the Burgundy itch for me.

[JamieBahrain]

Not sure that gets you too many cru Italian wines!!!

G'day Felix.

An MGA or Cru Barbaresco starts at about 20 euro. Other wine regions convincingly provide similar. Although I'm not including North America as I have poor exposure here.

I was never referencing supermarket Bourgogne. I was referencing the 20 euro + Red Bourgogne which I think has no equal in poor value, poor quality and low interest. I can go all around Europe and drink with interest and quality at this price-point. Not in Beaune.

I think whites a much better chance.

And sorry for complexing the issue with supermarket generic wines- I never drink them.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Snobbery in wine can be found everywhere. Generally speaking it is expensive and fine wines that attract the snobs. If there is “snobbery” in Burgundy then it is a reflection of the demand for their wines, and therefore a testament to the inherent quality and demand. High prices are a reflection of scarcity and demand, and wine snobs, generally the ones who can afford them, are attracted to them.

“All roads lead to Burgundy” is a paean to Burgundy and is not supposed to be taken literally. Sure there a general truth behind this and I cannot see how any reasonable person acquainted with the wine world cannot see the the meaning behind it. Plenty of people in their youth drink less expensive, broadly generic varietals and appelation wines. With time and experience, and no small measure of increased wealth and growing curiosity, people explore other regions and varietals.

Within this forum, since I joined, the entire tenor has changed. Back then vitually all posts were on was Australian and New Zealand wines. If a forum member posted a tasting note on a foreign wine more than likely the would be no response or comment. One forum member flat out quit because, as he said, nobody shows any interest in foreign wines. In fact I would only post notes on Australian wines, not anything foreign. Today, probably in no small measure because of expanded market availability, the posts reflect the whole gamut of the world of wine.

I think “All roads lead to Burgundy” and the notion of a wine journey has broad meaning. In context I think it can mean Burgundy or even Burgundian in texture and profile. This is particulary true with regard to old wines. It refers to changing preferences, an appreciation of different styles, and an appreciation of old wines - it is a broad tent.

The British wine writer Harry Waugh was once asked about when he last confused Bordeaux with Burgundy and he famously replied “Not since lunch”. Who amongst us would take that literally.

Cheers ..................... Mahmoud.

PS: When it comes to pricing, it is a red herring, since that is an entirely different issue and not germane to the discussion. There are dross wines almost everywhere.

[JamieBahrain]

The general malignment and implied snobbery of some who say "yes, your journey will start with Shraz, but will end up with Burgundy" gives me the $hitS.

Still agree with this despite various interpretations emerging of "All Roads Lead To Rome/ All Roads Lead To Burgundy". A pretty clear assumption and to be honest the first time I heard this used was years ago and All Roads Lead To Bordeaux. But make up interpretations as you please.

Is the All Roads Lead To Rome definition/ context true? No, not even close in my opinion, so I do wonder what the argument is? A lot of people do not even like pinot noir. Or, they don't like Old World pinot, preferring New. Or the don't like French wine culture or French food. Many just like drinking the wines of their country and refuse to budge on their journey.

Or even the ludicrous assumption that a large number will finish their journey in Burgundy style wines. Even the uber-rich, probably thankfully, don't see their journey ( if you could call it that ) end up in Burgundy or "Burgundy style". I see this from friends in the business jet game for tycoons. Bordeaux still dominates with Grange popular too.

What I do see up this way is the myth of Burgundy as the ultra-rich corner the market like a rare earth commodity. Hong Kong has played a big role in this and interestingly one of the guys in our tasting group changed the law in his political role- taking tax from 100% to 0% and as the owner of the most expensive cellar in Asia reduced his tax liability by millions ( explains why the streets are burning because of such favours ). This forever changed the market.

All Roads lead to Burgundy has fewer on the on the journey than many suspect. But Burgundy is often fiercely defended by the passionate- perhaps because its such an emotional and cerebral experience.

[Con J]

I'm not following what we are trying to prove here anymore.

Cheers Con.

[grapeobserver]

I'm not following what we are trying to prove here anymore.

Cheers Con.

+1 Con

Cheers
Sean

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm not following what we are trying to prove here anymore.

After reading the post prior to yours I can well understand what you mean. Hilarious.

[JamieBahrain]

I'm not following what we are trying to prove here anymore.

Cheers Con.

That you aren’t a bogan to drink SA shiraz.

[sjw_11]

I think this is one of the very rare threads (debates) where Jamie, Mahmoud, Craig and I are all in alignment.

[phillisc]

I think this is one of the very rare threads (debates) where Jamie, Mahmoud, Craig and I are all in alignment.

Well umm yes Sam...nobody has had a fight yet...but not sure how a Shiraz thread turned into a pisstake regarding pinot and cabernet and roads and really wealthy people??!!
Con summed it up perfectly...I couldn't really be bothered weighing in before to be honest.
Cheers Craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

I think this is one of the very rare threads (debates) where Jamie, Mahmoud, Craig and I are all in alignment.

Oh dear, and I had thought, without taking an extreme view of either side, that I was leaning slightly towards Polymer's position in defending the broad meaning behing the all roads lead to notion. It just goes to show how convoluted this thread has become.

Regarding South Australian shiraz I was never temperamental about it, neither when Parker and the Wine Spectator fanned the point scores nor when they fell out of favour. My strategy has always been to buy wines of a style that cellars well and hopefully with a pedigree. During the time when many of the Parker-driven wines were falling over and fellow wine enthusiasts talked about the inability of Australian wines to cellar well I maintained that they were cellaring the wrong wines. I was served Amon Ra and Carnival of Love and couldn't for the life of me see them get to a better place. However it did not prevent me from buying some of the big shirazes: the Meshach, Langmeil's Freedom, or the Aberfeldy. Hopefully they turn out okay.

Mahmoud.

[sjw_11]

Haha OK false alarm, my bad.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Haha OK false alarm, my bad.

No worries, it's all in jest.

Cheers ........................ Mahmoud.

[phillisc]

Haha OK false alarm, my bad.

No worries, it's all in jest.

Cheers ........................ Mahmoud.

All good Sam
Cheers Craig