2009 Bordeaux Thread

[Craig(NZ)]

Every self respecting wine forum needs this thread so i thought I would add it to keep us in the club. Anyone planning to buy? Any labels you may be tempted with? Anyone feel its just better to wait and buy retail?? Anyone reckon they are just overpriced trophies for those who just gotta be seen??

Haven't decided yet but I may be tempted to throw some monry at Pontet Canet or Suduiraut depending on pricing and how I feel on the day

[Dave Dewhurst]

I'll probably have a nose around at cru bourgeois level and Sauternes. Anything higher will depend on pricing - will probably buy some 04s instead.

Cheers

Dave

[monghead]

Would love to, but financial budget just not making it possible.

Heard it's being touted as another "vintage of a lifetime".

[Red]

Would echo monghead's sentiments, and find this whole en primeur season business a bit mad really.

In saying that, if I won the lottery I'm sure I would be buying up big!

[Julio G]

I am going to this (http://www.bibendum-wine.co.uk/retail/e ... sting_2010) tasting next week... I have very little experience with really young Bordeaux so my notes will need to be taken in that context... I'll report report back to the best of my ability.

Any wines in particular from the list that people are particularly interested in?

[rooman]

Since I have discovered my SMSF can invest in fine wine, I will probably go for:

Ch. Haut-Bailly (Pessac Leognan),
Ch. Pontet-Canet (Pauillac),
Ch. La Conseillante (Pomerol),
Ch. Lynch Bages (Pauillac )

I am also really tempted to try for some magnums over in NZ and then then just carry them home whenever I get over there. I had a friend of mine bring back a magnum of Ch. Figeac from the 2005 vintage. I figure we can crack it at my birthday dinner for my son's 21st.

[orpheus]

Then your superfund can sell it to you when you retire? I hope the timing is right....

[rooman]

I can either sell it for a profit or take the wine as a lump sum benefit. In reality if I pick up a case of each, I can probably sell 6-8, cover the initial outlay and keep the rest. Personally I don't want to access any of the 09 for another 15 years or so the timing works in ok for me.

[reschsmooth]

Since I have discovered my SMSF can invest in fine wine

Not wishing to tell you how to suck corks , but you need to make sure the wine is held on an arms-length basis. This includes considering storing the wine in an offsite facility and insuring it. Storing it for 'free' in your own cellar may not be considered at arms-length.

You can obviously sell the wines agt any time before or after retirement, and you can take the wine as a lump sum after retirement - not as a pension payment. I heard of one bloke who retired and sought to pay himself a pension of a bottle of wine every Saturday night as a pension from his fund. Unfortunately, he couldn't do that.

Finally, you need to ensure your Investment Strategy and trust deed allows for the investment in wine.

Enough compliance, more wine talk

[rooman]

Resche

Thank you for the insurance tip.

Mark

[Mike Hawkins]

I'll buy some of the super seconds (probably not Cos due to descriptors I've read) and Pontet Canet. If by some chance Latour <USD450, I may buy that as well.

[rooman]

Amazing how far apart the reviewers appear to be on the Cos. WS gives it 97-100. Others such as Simon Staples from BBR hammered it. The best article I have read on 2009 points out the obvious which is tasting young Bordeaux at this stage of their development is far from a pleasureable experience. I much prefer to buy them and then leave them for a decade or so.

[Bick]

Anyone planning to buy?

No, very much doubt it, expense > budget.

Any labels you may be tempted with?

If I came into some money, I'd be tempted to get a few cases of decent classed growths, but still not first growths. The value is probably in chateaux like Pontet, Lynch-Bages, Leoville Barton, Calon-Segur, Rauzan-Segla, La Gaffeliere, Gazin etc.

Anyone feel its just better to wait and buy retail??

Nah, ep rocks.

Anyone reckon they are just overpriced trophies for those who just gotta be seen??

Well, yes, they are aren't they, but I would be just as shallow as the next man if I could afford to be.

[rooman]

Anyone reckon they are just overpriced trophies for those who just gotta be seen??

Well, yes, they are aren't they, but I would be just as shallow as the next man if I could afford to be.

Sadly (because they are so much more expensive) I really do believe great and even good bottles of Bordeaux are so much better that Cab Sav blends from other regions. A friend of mine tracked down a source of 85 Pichons recently and they were just stunning. I would happenly drink them every day of the week. If you are going to drink comparable wines then you are in the Moss Wood Mt Mary/Stonyridge category anyway and the prices are not far off the Bordeaux I like to buy. I am happy leaving the first growths to the Russian and Chinese billionaires

If you are looking for good value, Ch. Poujeaux and Ch. Ormes de Pez have been getting really good press. That is the thing about a vintage such as 2009. "Lesser" labels will be making stunning wines. You don't have to buy first growths and Ch Palmers to put away fantastic wines.

[DaveB]

Since I have discovered my SMSF can invest in fine wine, I will probably go for:

Ch. Haut-Bailly (Pessac Leognan),
Ch. Pontet-Canet (Pauillac),
Ch. La Conseillante (Pomerol),
Ch. Lynch Bages (Pauillac )

I am also really tempted to try for some magnums over in NZ and then then just carry them home whenever I get over there. I had a friend of mine bring back a magnum of Ch. Figeac from the 2005 vintage. I figure we can crack it at my birthday dinner for my son's 21st.

Good choices....as are your suggestions of Ch. Poujeaux and Ch. Ormes de Pez. Other goodies are Ch Phelan Segur, Chateau Beauregard, Ch Larcris-Ducasse, Ch Kirwan.....for stickies Ch d'Arch and De Fargues were excellent. I'll start typing up my notes tonight from the En Primeur tastings (3 notebooks worth ) and post some stuff over the next week.

[monghead]

Hi all,

Just curious, what are the alcohol contents of the 09 Bordeaux for those you noted?

Cheers,

Monghead.

[Julio G]

I have never bought en primeur before but I'm considering it for this vintage. I don't think I'm treading on any of Gavin's territory by asking what the best avenues are for Bordeaux en primeur in Australia?

[Jay60A]

I bought up pretty big in 2005 and no regrets. 2009 I will spread my buys across the appellations, avoid right bank, and am looking at cases of -

Calon Segur (St Estephe)
Haut Bailly (Pessac-L)
Pontet Canet (Pauillac) - or Clerc Milon / Grand Puy Lacoste if prices are silly on PC.
tbd from St Julie, likely one of Leoville Baron or Poyferre.

Also maybe value from Ormes de Pez, D'Ancludet, Gloria, Poujeaux. 5-6 cases max.

I think the Firsts and Super Seconds like Palmer, LLC, Ducru-B will be more expensive than 2005 which counts me out although LLC might be worth a look if it comes out at a similar price.

[Jay60A]

Anyone reckon they are just overpriced trophies for those who just gotta be seen??

Well, yes, they are aren't they, but I would be just as shallow as the next man if I could afford to be.

Sadly (because they are so much more expensive) I really do believe great and even good bottles of Bordeaux are so much better that Cab Sav blends from other regions. A friend of mine tracked down a source of 85 Pichons recently and they were just stunning. I would happenly drink them every day of the week. If you are going to drink comparable wines then you are in the Moss Wood Mt Mary/Stonyridge category anyway and the prices are not far off the Bordeaux I like to buy. I am happy leaving the first growths to the Russian and Chinese billionaires

If you are looking for good value, Ch. Poujeaux and Ch. Ormes de Pez have been getting really good press. That is the thing about a vintage such as 2009. "Lesser" labels will be making stunning wines. You don't have to buy first growths and Ch Palmers to put away fantastic wines.

Uhh disagree ... most reviews have dissed the great majority of lesser labels as unbalanced / overripe - the ones you mention are more the exception than the rule. The 2009 vintage is a top end vintage, trophy wines at trophy prices alas, unlike 2005 where great wine was made all the way down to Cru Bourgeois and also in satellite appellations like Canon Fronsac, Moulis etc.

[Craig(NZ)]

I think i will wait till they hit the shelves. You can still buy 05 PC here in NZ for $200 if you know where to look. Hardly a premium on ep once both installments are paid and cost of money factored in.

I reckon PC will be $130ish first inst??

[rooman]

Sadly (because they are so much more expensive) I really do believe great and even good bottles of Bordeaux are so much better that Cab Sav blends from other regions. A friend of mine tracked down a source of 85 Pichons recently and they were just stunning. I would happenly drink them every day of the week. If you are going to drink comparable wines then you are in the Moss Wood Mt Mary/Stonyridge category anyway and the prices are not far off the Bordeaux I like to buy. I am happy leaving the first growths to the Russian and Chinese billionaires

If you are looking for good value, Ch. Poujeaux and Ch. Ormes de Pez have been getting really good press. That is the thing about a vintage such as 2009. "Lesser" labels will be making stunning wines. You don't have to buy first growths and Ch Palmers to put away fantastic wines.

Uhh disagree ... most reviews have dissed the great majority of lesser labels as unbalanced / overripe - the ones you mention are more the exception than the rule. The 2009 vintage is a top end vintage, trophy wines at trophy prices alas, unlike 2005 where great wine was made all the way down to Cru Bourgeois and also in satellite appellations like Canon Fronsac, Moulis etc.

Jay

I am not quite sure if you disagree about the 2009 vintage or Bordeaux in general. Assuming you mean the 2009 vintage yes I have seen there is a fair amount of variation across the producers compared to 2005. Also lots of talk about high alcohol. For that reason I will not buy anything like the quantity I purchased in 2005. I will only pick up 2-3 cases at the most from this vintage. I am however hopeful that the strength of the Aus dollar will mean we don't get as badly scr#wed as normal. We pay almost twice the price you pay up in the UK. Winesearcher is a great tool but it really hurts to see the Aus equivalent prices for wine sold in the UK. The importers go on about freight and travel etc but our wines are much cheaper in the UK even after allowing for our horrendous tax rgime which really comes down to increased competition.

Mark

[rooman]

When the prices for the 2009 come out, it will be very interesting to see the approach taken by the Australian importers.

Since the last round of EP 2008, the Aussie dollar has strengthened by close to 35%. If the Bordelais increase the 2009 prices by less than 35%, you would actually expect prices to drop for the 2009 vintage in Australia. On the other hand if they increase prices by 50%, which is a phenomenal jump, you would expect prices to raise by no more than 10% over last years prices.

www.liv-ex.com in the UK proposes listing all the 2009 prices being offered by the various chateau so that buyers can see how much the 2009 prices have increased over the 2008 prices. Liv-ex's intention is empower buyers.

Using these figures we can work out what the "true" price should be in Australia taking into account the increase in the Aussie dollar and the actual price increases from last year.

Sadly I am guessing the importers will figure on the strength of the Australian economy compared to overseas economies and go hell for leather with their prices.

Time will tell.

[Jay60A]

I am not quite sure if you disagree about the 2009 vintage or Bordeaux in general. Assuming you mean the 2009 vintage yes I have seen there is a fair amount of variation across the producers compared to 2005. Also lots of talk about high alcohol. For that reason I will not buy anything like the quantity I purchased in 2005. I will only pick up 2-3 cases at the most from this vintage. I am however hopeful that the strength of the Aus dollar will mean we don't get as badly scr#wed as normal. We pay almost twice the price you pay up in the UK. Winesearcher is a great tool but it really hurts to see the Aus equivalent prices for wine sold in the UK. The importers go on about freight and travel etc but our wines are much cheaper in the UK even after allowing for our horrendous tax rgime which really comes down to increased competition.

Mark

Mark - yeah, for me 2005 at the mid-to-low end of Bordeaux is sounding much more consistent than 2009.
UK really is the hub of the world wine trade, keeps the prices real. However the weather and quality of life is not as flash as Oz or NZ so everywhere has pros and cons.

If Bordeaux prices are too high I'll probably buy less and look more at Rhone 2007. Stuff like Jamet Cote Rotie is nectar and undiscovered by new wine markets thankfully.

[Polymer]

Unless you're buying it EP or Futures....I doubt you'll see any impact of the stronger AUD on wine prices....It doesn't seem like it's made any difference because while their costs have changed, the established market in Australia will determine their prices...I'm talking retail only...

So while the AUD today should give us a better price (or close to) for 2009 than 2008 or 2007, I hardly think we'll see the prices near them..they're not going to drop their prices on other stuff and they're certainly not going to sell a better year for less...

It's basically like almost everything in Australia...Retailers aren't going to make less money revenue wise because the AUD is stronger...The only people that really benefit from a stronger AUD are businesses and people on holiday that are going overseas....Or maybe I'm wrong but has anyone seen prices come down because of a stronger AUD? I only see things getting more expensive...

[Dave Dewhurst]

Unless you're buying it EP or Futures....I doubt you'll see any impact of the stronger AUD on wine prices....It doesn't seem like it's made any difference because while their costs have changed, the established market in Australia will determine their prices...I'm talking retail only...

Or maybe I'm wrong but has anyone seen prices come down because of a stronger AUD? I only see things getting more expensive...

Saw Chateau Beaumont offered today for $22. Bout $5 a bottle cheaper than 2005. Different retailer though.

Cheers

Dave

[reschsmooth]

Or maybe I'm wrong but has anyone seen prices come down because of a stronger AUD? I only see things getting more expensive...

Not sure if you are only referring to wine prices with this question, but I know that when the AUD rallied strongly against the USD last year, imported camera prices came down, in AUD terms, significantly. They were competing very strongly against grey imports. How this tranfers to other industries, I don't know, as the dynamics of each differ.

[Polymer]

Gray market stuff will be cheaper since people are taking advantage of the strong currency...which is a good thing..

I also forgot to mention this doesn't apply to computer stuff where the price does drop significantly (it also means computer prices go up). When I'm talking computer stuff though, I'm talking buying from a Chinese (generally) retailer because they work off of razor thin margins and there's a lot of competition...

As far as the Chateau Beaumont 2009 vs. 2005....I'd expect it to be cheaper than 2005.

The question is, do you think it'll be cheaper than 2008? A bit of a general question since 2009 doesn't look like it'll be excellent across the board (and 2008 is a pretty decent year). How about 2007? Talking about a wine that is excellent for 2009, what person will buy 2007/8 if 2009 is cheaper? No one...even if the retailer's cost is different..

It's a bit of a blanket statement but most things here just get more expensive and there's so little competition, the consumers just accept that it's happening....A perfect example of this is the Supermarkets..no competition (How do they allow Coles and Bi-lo or Woolies and Franklins to exist at the SAME shopping centre?). I don't know how many people thought Domayne and Harvey Norman's were competitors....Anyways, sorry to get off topic...

[rooman]

Polymer

I completely agree, appears to be almost no competition in certain sector of the wine business such as Bordeaux. Clearly if you are bring in a wine from Germany or Italy, you are mad not to take advantage of the strengthening Aussie dollar. But for good Bordeaux, it is almost as though there is a cartel operating. There appears to be almost no cometitive price action. Australia needs someone like Farr Vintners to come in and set up an online prestige business with direct shipping. That would really shake up the market.

Mark

[Polymer]

Rooman,

That's exactly how I feel...I don't understand how it hasn't happened yet..and granted, I don't fully understand all of the details and implications of importing wine...but it seems to me there's a market there just ripe for huge margins while basically beating everyone else up on price. Or maybe I don't really understand the market very well and there is relatively low demand (If you're on a wine board you're likely to fall in the small minority) or just that there's so little competition everyone expects it to be really expensive thus making it not something most wine drinkers in Australia look for..I have no idea.....The thought has crossed my mind why I don't do it myself though.

[Julio G]

Ok, worked my way through the better part of these (http://www.bibendum-wine.co.uk/retail/e ... sting_2010) 2009s last night - very tired palate by the end. Some chickened out on bringing their barrel samples at the last minute and only showed older wines - a little disappointing. The best wines tasted on the night were 96 Yquem and 04 Cheval Blanc... but you want to know about the 2009s I guess. I will only mention the wines that I either loved or didn't find very agreeable. If I don't mention it, it was because I didn't get to it or it was in the middle ground.

Chasse Spleen - way out of whack, no balance.
Sociando Mallet - lovely balance and tension, exciting. (the 2000 also on show was a super drink)
de Fieuzal - not especially complex but will be a good med-bodied lunch claret style.
Malartic Lagraviere - not especially complex but good weight, well judged acid.
d'Issan - the most unusual wine on the night, something leafy and complex going on, fine textured tanin.
Cantenac Brown - feminine and fine but with a brooding sort of power lurking - easily the best of the Margauxs which were disappointing on the whole.
Leoville Poyferre - Super! excellent weight, earth and cassis notes, very fresh, well structured, long. YES!
Langoa Barton - ultra dry, possibly not my style.
Leoville Barton - iodine notes, too much extract, lacks freshness.
Lagrange - Strong iodine on the nose and then palate, a little touch of acid freshness saves the day but I doubt this will age gracefully.
Beychevelle - nothing on the nose! subtle cassis and spice on the palate, v fine tanin. Nice.
Grand Puy Lacoste - One of the fuller bodied wines tasted, but well structured and in balance.
Haut Batailley - Stunner. Fresh, floating medium bodied, wonderful structure tanin and acid. A keeper.
Batailley - Stunner!! Read Haut Batailley but perhaps a little more weight to the fruit.
Pontet Canet - Trifecta for Pauillac! This is a serious wine, brooding, fine tanin, casis fruit, earth and some spice. I can see what all the fuss is about.
Lafon Rochet - really fresh and delicious. Well structured.
Phelan Segur - Big, medicinal and over extracted.
Montrose - Wonderful, a cracker. Ultra fresh, tending to be fuller bodied but really well structured and balanced.
Tronquoy Lalande - strong kirsch flavour but fresh enough. Early drinker?
Figeac - Really complex, fine, ripe tanin and wonderful balance... just super.
Angelus - Denser fruit than the Figeac but really good... unlucky to be tasted after Figeac.

I've never done anything like this tasting before so my notes need to be considered in that context. My fantasy list would include Montrose, Figeac, Pontet Canet, Haut Batailley, Lafon Rochet and Leoville Poyferre.