Wine Complexity

[trentwine]

I am involved in wine research at Adelaide Uni and this is my first post. I am currently doing some work on wine complexity and would like to explore this topic with other forum users.
When you read a review that mentions wine complexity, what does that mean to you?
What desciptors do you use to describe complexity?
Do you go out of your way to purchase complex wines and is complexity one of your motivators when buying wine?
Your thoughts and comments are much appreciated.

[GraemeG]

When you read a review that mentions wine complexity, what does that mean to you?

Mostly I regard it as just a cop-out. A weasel word that means nothing specific. "Great complexity!" Meaning what? Shorthand for 'I have no idea why this wine tastes the way it does.'?

What desciptors do you use to describe complexity?

It's not a noun. Tannins might be initially dusty, then gradually build in powderiness, thus becoming ever finer throughout the finish, so that they are intense yet subtle. That's complex. Complexity comes as the result of your other analyses - it grows from the described attributes. A review saying 'complex tannins' is saying nothing.

Do you go out of your way to purchase complex wines and is complexity one of your motivators when buying wine?

If the review says 'complex wine' I will ignore it. If there's enough analysis there, it's complexity will be come evident...
Graeme

[Paullie]

Thats a complex answer Grae.

On a serious note, you make very valid points.

Wine is an amalgamation of sensory charactersitcs and therefore its complexity cannot be summed up in a single word or phrase.

[Gary W]

nothing like calling a spade an earth inverting horticultural implement eh....
GW

[D.I]

"what is for one person – fault, for the other is complexity".For example:
Low level of VA.
Low level of bret
Low level of oxidation.

[Shadrach]

Trentwine, I thought you posted several good questions but now that GraemeG has replied in such a negative manner I'm sure many forumites are a bit gobsmacked!
Obviously complex is the opposite of simple. Just as we all abhor simple wines the corollary to this is that we should enjoy complex wines. So if a wine is described as complex, what does it mean to me? It means that we have a wine that has great depth of flavour but perhaps hasn't quite come together yet. A wine that needs time for fruit, tannin, acid and oak, which are all in abundance, to come together. It also means to me that there is a layering of flavours i.e. The fist whiff or first taste may indicate some distinct characteristics, however in returning to the glass there are new and wonderful aromas and flavours to be found. Wines such as this give up their bouquets and flavours slowly and it requires patience to seek them out. Nothing is more enjoyable than a wine that deserves to be smelt for many minutes before you even contemplate tasting it.
What descriptors do I use to describe complex wines? Well I've used a few above but a few more would include rich, powerful, velvety, great finesse, warmth, intense and 'mother's milk' to name a few.
Yes I do try to find complex wines to buy and Gavin is the master in leading Auswine customers to such wines including the Lazy Ballerina, Kalleschke Shiraz and Majella Cabernet.
I feel sorry for you Graeme if you can't enjoy a wonderful word such as 'complexity', when related to wine.

[707]

G'day Trent, long time no hear, good to see you're still alive and well.

When you read a review that mentions wine complexity, what does that mean to you? Depends on who's written it. If it's in a marketing blurb or on a back label I ignore it. If it's from a trusted reviewer then I take it the wine is more than one dimensional a has a multitude of flavours that drift in and out of picture as it breathes.

What desciptors do you use to describe complexity? I use complexity as a statement to describe the above. Descriptors I use to describe the flavours and smells. You should never use "complex" as a lone descriptor, it says too little or nothing at all, you need the other descriptors to flesh out the actual flavours.

Do you go out of your way to purchase complex wines and is complexity one of your motivators when buying wine? Bloody oath I go out of my way to find them. Complex wines give you more for your dollar and nowadays I'm finding them more often coming from small to medium stables and rarely out of the corporate sector.

Good luck with your research.

[griff]

The simplest way to describe my opinion of what 'complex' means is two-fold really

a) when a wine on the palate and/or nose has many different flavours thus making it difficult to describe e.g. woody, spicy, toasty oak with coffee/chocolate notes leading to a full fruit palate (and by fruit you have to go to the greengrocer to work out which ones you are tasting)!

b) when the nose and/or palate evolves in the glass over time or when drinking with food. By evolution I mean that ideally with each taste you have from a glass the descriptors you had in mind from the last sip don't quite match to what you are tasting right now. This would continue to the end of the bottle. That is an interesting wine to me.

Although they are the two sides of the same coin really, I can have a wine that may have either of these characteristics or if I am lucky, both of them. On a personal note I find the latter mostly occurs for me with good red wine and some chardonnays or aged aromatic whites. The former can occur with even a worked Sauvignon Blanc!

Well thats a bit of waffle for breakfast in the morning

cheers

Carl

[RogerPike]

Graeme,

It most definitely is a noun.

Roger

[KMP]

What desciptors do you use to describe complexity? There is no list of descriptors that imply or define complexity, at least to my knowledge. But like many wine descripors it can have more relevance to the user than the reader. An inexperienced wine drinker might use the term to describe a fairly simple wine, especially if it provides new and multiple aromas (i.e. a more pleasing wine experience). Whereas a more experienced individual may not use the term, except in case of tasting a truly exceptional wine that not only has multiple layers and nuances of smell and taste but is also perfectly balanced and completely harmonious.

Do you go out of your way to purchase complex wines and is complexity one of your motivators when buying wine? One of the motivators, yes. But its not the only characteristic that determines what wine I buy.

From a quick seach of some books on wine tasting, there seems to be a general acceptance that a complex wine is one with multiple layers and nuances of smell and taste. The diametric opposite of a wine that is simple and one-dimensional.

[GrahamB]

Trentwine, I thought you posted several good questions but now that GraemeG has replied in such a negative manner I'm sure many forumites are a bit gobsmacked!
Obviously complex is the opposite of simple. Just as we all abhor simple wines the corollary to this is that we should enjoy complex wines. So if a wine is described as complex, what does it mean to me? It means that we have a wine that has great depth of flavour but perhaps hasn't quite come together yet. A wine that needs time for fruit, tannin, acid and oak, which are all in abundance, to come together. It also means to me that there is a layering of flavours i.e. The fist whiff or first taste may indicate some distinct characteristics, however in returning to the glass there are new and wonderful aromas and flavours to be found. Wines such as this give up their bouquets and flavours slowly and it requires patience to seek them out. Nothing is more enjoyable than a wine that deserves to be smelt for many minutes before you even contemplate tasting it.What descriptors do I use to describe complex wines? Well I've used a few above but a few more would include rich, powerful, velvety, great finesse, warmth, intense and 'mother's milk' to name a few.
Yes I do try to find complex wines to buy and Gavin is the master in leading Auswine customers to such wines including the Lazy Ballerina, Kalleschke Shiraz and Majella Cabernet.
I feel sorry for you Graeme if you can't enjoy a wonderful word such as 'complexity', when related to wine.

For me, you have stated it well. This is how I see complexity.

Graham

[GraemeG]

Graeme,
It most definitely is a noun.
Roger

Er, fair enough. I guess what I intended to convey is that in the context of a tasting note 'complex' is an adjective, and a not very useful one at that. I agree with Mike in that it's better shorthand for the writer, rather than the reader.
I think it's a word that ought to be avoided in tasting notes unless it is justified by some detail, that's all.
Graeme

[RogerPike]

Graeme,
It most definitely is a noun.
Roger

Er, fair enough. I guess what I intended to convey is that in the context of a tasting note 'complex' is an adjective, and a not very useful one at that. I agree with Mike in that it's better shorthand for the writer, rather than the reader.
I think it's a word that ought to be avoided in tasting notes unless it is justified by some detail, that's all.
Graeme

So, by inference, do you think that the word 'simple' should be avoided in tasting notes unless it is justified by lack of detail?

Roger

[Glen]

There is no list of descriptors that imply or define complexity, at least to my knowledge

Come now Mike, you haven't been looking at your Essential Wine Tasting Guide for a while have you?

What desciptors do you use to describe complexity?

Trent, you can find 22 descriptors to describe a wines complexity on the Essential Wine Tasting Guide, as well as over 1,000 other descriptors for every other facet.

Do you go out of your way to purchase complex wines and is complexity one of your motivators when buying wine?

Absolutely, otherwise Muller Thurgau, Palomino et al would still be highly planted, and cropping levels for others would still be ridiculously high.

Another descriptor similar to simple is vinous, which denotes a wine that smells of wine but with no discerning aromatic signature.

[KMP]

There is no list of descriptors that imply or define complexity, at least to my knowledge

Come now Mike, you haven't been looking at your Essential Wine Tasting Guide for a while have you?

Glen, to be honest, no! But that is mainly because although I found it available in NZ there didn't seem to be any wineries (that we visited) that had their logo on the back cover. How can I complete my collection when you don't get these people to have the Guide represent their winery?

To be honest the 22 words you have listed in Essential Wine Tasting Guide share the same problem as any descriptor - they can mean different things to different people. So I might use refined or sophisticated or simple or disjointed in a TN, but I don't use them as surrogates for complexity - others may well do so. I'm unlikely to use most of the others. And some are not terms I would use in relation to complexity - simultaneous, successive, staggered.

This is not to say that the guide is not one of the most useful listings of descriptors, and certainly an excellent memory jogger. And pocket sized to boot!

Mike

[GraemeG]

Graeme,
It most definitely is a noun.
Roger

Er, fair enough. I guess what I intended to convey is that in the context of a tasting note 'complex' is an adjective, and a not very useful one at that. I agree with Mike in that it's better shorthand for the writer, rather than the reader.
I think it's a word that ought to be avoided in tasting notes unless it is justified by some detail, that's all.
Graeme

So, by inference, do you think that the word 'simple' should be avoided in tasting notes unless it is justified by lack of detail?
Roger

Ha ha I guess that depends on how loquacious you are. If you've managed to write half a page of text on a wine you shouldn't be calling it simple...
In all seriousness, often a note on a modest commercial wine might mention a few things and then hand down a verdict of 'simple.' There's no need to say more about the wine then.
Graeme

[Glen]

And some are not terms I would use in relation to complexity - simultaneous, successive, staggered

Mike, all of these terms refer to the whenabouts of the aromas ie:

simultaneous - aromas that are appearing all at once
successive - aromas as they appear over time one after another
staggered - usually to do with wines that are closed upon opening like young whites eg: riesling due to SO, or also a bit like the donut effect but on the nose rather than the palate

In conclusion for Trentwood, would most people agree that complexity relates solely to the aromas/bouquet of a wine (including retronasally), and has nothing to do with the mouthfeel?

[griff]

And some are not terms I would use in relation to complexity - simultaneous, successive, staggered

Mike, all of these terms refer to the whenabouts of the aromas ie:

simultaneous - aromas that are appearing all at once
successive - aromas as they appear over time one after another
staggered - usually to do with wines that are closed upon opening like young whites eg: riesling due to SO, or also a bit like the donut effect but on the nose rather than the palate

In conclusion for Trentwood, would most people agree that complexity relates solely to the aromas/bouquet of a wine (including retronasally), and has nothing to do with the mouthfeel?

I think I mentioned earlier that the palate is important for me as well. Also, I don't think it is merely a timing issue. For me there is two facets to complexity; development in the glass and/or a greater number of aromas AND flavours than the a typical wine of its type.

But maybe I have a different opinion of what complexity is!

cheers

Carl

cheers

Carl

[KMP]

And some are not terms I would use in relation to complexity - simultaneous, successive, staggered

Mike, all of these terms refer to the whenabouts of the aromas ie:

simultaneous - aromas that are appearing all at once
successive - aromas as they appear over time one after another
staggered - usually to do with wines that are closed upon opening like young whites eg: riesling due to SO, or also a bit like the donut effect but on the nose rather than the palate

In conclusion for Trentwood, would most people agree that complexity relates solely to the aromas/bouquet of a wine (including retronasally), and has nothing to do with the mouthfeel?

Hi Glen

Well I’m pleased that I would have been correct in describing what simultaneous and successive mean. Staggered had me, staggered! I’d probably use something like muted instead.

I would disagree with the conclusion that complexity relates solely to the aromas/bouquet of a wine (including retronasally). I would agree that a complex wine will have a aroma/bouquet profile on nosing that may change quite dramatically in the mouth (as detected retronasally) but if it lacks structure and balance then I would not call it complex.

I was thinking about this last night as we drank a bottle of the 2005 Tait The Ball Buster (82% Shiraz, 9% Cab sauv, 9% Merlot). Certainly plenty of aromas on nose and palate, but also one dimensional in terms of palate appeal. By that I mean that it simply covers the palate with a uniform feeling that does not excite. In contrast, something like the 2002 Torbreck RunRig or the 2002 Trevor Jones Wild Witch Shiraz are wines that are complex because they throw up new aroma combinations (almost with every whiff), and they excite the palate, not only because new flavors are found and because they have great mouthfeel, but also because the structure and balance provide additional sensory and tactile dimensions that complement the flavor profile.

I have to admit that I have used complex to describe such wines simply because I don’t have the ability to fully describe the nuances of flavor and taste found in these wines; and if the science of perception is correct neither do most people. But from my own vantage point (i.e my wine experience) I know when I have discovered a complex wine, and that realization occurs only when the wine is in my mouth does; the initial smell may hint at complexity but I have to see it on taste as well.

Perhaps another example that may be shocking to some but it reinforces how I think about a complex wine. A few weeks ago I attended a tasting of Syrah, Shiraz and Sirah. I tasted them blind to their identities and the last wine proved very appealing. When I first tasted the wine I had, for a fleeting second, a flash back to how the 2002 RunRig felt when I tasted it a few years ago. I knew it was very unlikely for the RunRig to be in the tasting. But I dismissed the notion that this was RunRig because the complexity just was not there – the balance and structure were OK, but they did not integrate seamlessly with the aromas. I found myself looking for the taste and tactile components of the wine and breaking down their contribution to the wine. I never seem to do that with a complex wine because the components of the wine flow and mingle so well its almost an exercise in futility. But I was still very impressed with the wine - the 2005 Marquis Philips Shiraz! I asked for a second pour just to confirm that there had been no mix-up.

Mike

[Ian S]

Simple old me probably hasn't given it too much thought, but I do use the word.

For me it can mean a variety of flavours / aromas though probably not textures. A straight 'fruit salad' of flavours might be moderately complex, but a wine where there is a flow to the flavours, one that develops from start to finish would be very complex.

Just my simple-minded view on it.

Good question!

Ian

[Glen]

...but if it lacks structure and balance then I would not call it complex.

Hi Mike

You use two words 'structure and balance', however would you ever refer to 'complex balance' or 'complex structure'?
I think using the word complex to describe tactility would be like calling a wine fruity, it doesn't really convey much at all. There are many other words better suited to describing the various characters of tactility.

Whereas complex used to describe aromas/bouquet, certainly has an inference.

[KMP]

...but if it lacks structure and balance then I would not call it complex.

Hi Mike

You use two words 'structure and balance', however would you ever refer to 'complex balance' or 'complex structure'?
I think using the word complex to describe tactility would be like calling a wine fruity, it doesn't really convey much at all. There are many other words better suited to describing the various characters of tactility.

Whereas complex used to describe aromas/bouquet, certainly has an inference.

Hi Glen

No, I do not believe that structure or balance, in isolation, implies complexity. But if they complement the aroma/bouquet then they add to the appeal of a wine, and thus enhance the perception of complexity. So as I noted above, for me, complexity includes the components of taste and tactile perception in conjunction with layered aroma/bouquet. A wine that just has many and varied aromas is not truly complex to me.

Or to put it into the words of Maya from "Sideways" "because its constantly evolving and gaining complexity, ………………….and it tastes so f@%#&*g good."

Mike

[Partagas]

I personally believe it is a generalised statement before a further detailed description or explanation. It is very general.

For me it means extremely good or extremely bad (not in between). This can be due to the wine having too many mixed up dimensions in flavour or nose that I just don’t like or cannot work out (usually younger cheaper wines). On the other hand it can mean heaps of strong, but definitely defined characters, which can balance out with time to form greatness. Still has to remain varietal though.

A good example for me is the fact I didn’t like too many Cabernet Shiraz blends. Unless it is done very well, I found it too “complex” in flavour confusing my palette with the finish.

As for most things to do with wine, it is interpretational. So I agree a very good question.

[trentwine]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this post. It seems that there is no universally accepted definition of wine complexity and given the product, that is probably to be expected.
I will be doing some further research over the next 12 months on the issue of consumers' wine knowledge and their wine preferences and what relationship those variables might have with wine complexity. I will certainly be looking for volunteers for the research, so if you are in Adelaide, you might be interested in helping out.