What unpopular (wine) opinions do you have?

[Ian S]

Well I suppose the question was 'unpopular' so there should be some potentially provocative statements!

FWIW I have to agree wrt the Cullen DM, not at all what I expected given the tasting notes of the critics, the questing nature of the owner, etc. Decent value when I could get it for under GBP30 a decade and a half ago, but completely off my buying radar now. Their Chardonnay still interests me, though I never see it, and I suspect the price would be more than I'd happily pay.

WRT Red Burgundy ageing, I opened the 2nd bottle (of 2) of the following red with a Burg-o-phile. The first (slightly lower level) had been stunning.
1969 Domaine Jaboulet-Vercherre Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Charmes
The 2nd bottle was even better, and he very genuinely expressed concern that a lifetime's drinking of Red Burgundy had all been done too soon in the wine's development. Shockingly, it still felt like it had a decade or two left in the tank. One of the best red Burgundies he'd ever drunk. There are voices in the UK, who argue that most Red Burg gets drunk at the worst possible moment, when it is in a dumb phase. This timing being driven by wine critics' drinking windows.

I doubt this extra opinion will be popular, but I rather think Taltarni's old school reds were the only Aussie wines that genuinely earn the phrase 'iron fist in an iron glove'. The old Reserve wines used to need 2-3 decades until the tannins softened to the level of being 'firm'. I would love to get some more back in the cellar. Proper cellaring wines.

[Scotty vino]

That Wendouree Cabs and Cab blends are better across the board than the more highy rated Shiraz and Shiraz blends.
Cab - Malbec for me seems to hit the spot.

This is probably a popular opinion with some....that Rockies RR is as good or better a wine than basket press.
Says the guy that bought 0 last time he was in the cellar door. I'm gonna fix that when the weather cools...
Great wine.

[Mahmoud Ali]

WRT Red Burgundy ageing, I opened the 2nd bottle (of 2) of the following red with a Burg-o-phile. The first (slightly lower level) had been stunning.
1969 Domaine Jaboulet-Vercherre Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Les Charmes
The 2nd bottle was even better, and he very genuinely expressed concern that a lifetime's drinking of Red Burgundy had all been done too soon in the wine's development. Shockingly, it still felt like it had a decade or two left in the tank. One of the best red Burgundies he'd ever drunk. There are voices in the UK, who argue that most Red Burg gets drunk at the worst possible moment, when it is in a dumb phase. This timing being driven by wine critics' drinking windows.

I've come around to this view as well. A long time ago a stray bottle of a simple 1982 Louis M. Martini Pinot Noir was unexpectedly nice and should have alerted me to this notion. However it was a pair of 2001 pinots last year that brought it home, a regular bottling of Coldstream Hills and an Errazuriz Wild Ferment, both showing delightful aged pinot character. I had thought that I might have pushed the envelope too far with these wine but it was not the case. Both were drinking very well and were in no way in danger of falling over. It made me reassess the aging profiles of pinots.

I doubt this extra opinion will be popular, but I rather think Taltarni's old school reds were the only Aussie wines that genuinely earn the phrase 'iron fist in an iron glove'. The old Reserve wines used to need 2-3 decades until the tannins softened to the level of being 'firm'. I would love to get some more back in the cellar. Proper cellaring wines.

Cannot disagree, a 1981 Chateau Taltarni earlier this year was very nice, old school winemaking and Bordeau-like. Have't had a reserve though.

Mahmoud.

[Mike Hawkins]

I’ll throw another one out there that’ll be unpopular with Victorians... Yarra Cabernet is frequently over rated. For every good one, there’s a few thin, green and boring ones.

[felixp21]

my three most unpopular wine opinions:

1. Wendouree is VERY over-rated.

2. 2005 Red Burgundy is over-rated

3. 2005 Red Bordeaux is over-rated.

yes, yes, I know. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Mike Hawkins]

my three most unpopular wine opinions:

1. Wendouree is VERY over-rated.

2. 2005 Red Burgundy is over-rated

3. 2005 Red Bordeaux is over-rated.

yes, yes, I know. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I haven’t opened any of the 05 Bordeaux yet. Hope mine are good otherwise Langton’s will see them

[phillisc]

I have a myriad of unpopular opinions...but will keep them to myself...other wise I will be like Sam and looking for a Brexit strategy...well exile from the forum anyway.
Cheers Craig

[Lincoln]

OK here goes...

Wendouree make the most interesting,long lived and complex red wines in Australia.

Disagree

+1

[Mahmoud Ali]

my three most unpopular wine opinions:

1. Wendouree is VERY over-rated.

2. 2005 Red Burgundy is over-rated

3. 2005 Red Bordeaux is over-rated.

yes, yes, I know. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I haven’t opened any of the 05 Bordeaux yet. Hope mine are good otherwise Langton’s will see them

Mike [Edit: Sorry, Felix] was of the opinion that they're over-rated, not that they won't be good when the time comes. Much depends on which wines were bought.

Jancis Robinson had this to say about the 2005 vintage:

"Textbook perfection during the growing season in all respects other than price. Best kept for many a year. Quite marked tannins are too marked in some wines, notably the more modernistic St-Émilions, in which the then-prevailing fashion for extraction was taken to the limit."

Mahmoud.

PS: I reckon it is way too early to open good '05 Bordeaux, unless you have a case or 6-pack, in which case an early dip would be quite instructional.

[Cactus]

Natural wine and Orange wine is ghastly.

[mjs]

Leo Buring’s Sparkling Rhinegold, developed by Ian Hickinbotham in the late 50’s was one of the greatest achievements in the Australian wine industry

[sjw_11]

Natural wine and Orange wine is ghastly.

Agree.

[sjw_11]

Australian wines are actually very good and some of the best value in the world.

Value does matter in appreciating wine.

In the right moment, a chilled rose can be absolutely sublime.

Burgundy is a scam.

[sjw_11]

Oh and I do like Wendouree, but I am not prepared to debate it. I think they are very good but neither the best in Australia nor (for the relatively undemanding prices) over-rated.

[Polymer]

my three most unpopular wine opinions:

1. Wendouree is VERY over-rated.

2. 2005 Red Burgundy is over-rated

3. 2005 Red Bordeaux is over-rated.

yes, yes, I know. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I don't know if these are unpopular...but.

1. Disagree..I think they're equally overrated and underrated...given that half the people don't like the wine it is hard to be overrated.

2. 3-4 years ago I'd agree easily....they're starting to come around though..but I'd say agree and disagree .

3. Agree. I don't know if/when these are ever going to come around...30 years from now these might be amazing...but so what? Maybe for the next generation will care...I don't. Even the low end wines here are still tannic beasts...

[TiggerK]

Australian wines are actually very good and some of the best value in the world.
AGREE (Mostly)

Value does matter in appreciating wine.
DISAGREE (We normally taste blind, so how it feels and tastes is what matters. Value only matters in terms of if I can afford to buy it!)

In the right moment, a chilled rose can be absolutely sublime.
AGREE, but not Aussie Rose.

Burgundy is a scam.
DISAGREE, particularly for white. But yes, some of it is extremely expensive. Others aren't.

Natural wine and Orange wine is ghastly.
DISAGREE!!!!! (Although I agree a bit of it is)

[felixp21]

my three most unpopular wine opinions:

1. Wendouree is VERY over-rated.

2. 2005 Red Burgundy is over-rated

3. 2005 Red Bordeaux is over-rated.

yes, yes, I know. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I don't know if these are unpopular...but.

1. Disagree..I think they're equally overrated and underrated...given that half the people don't like the wine it is hard to be overrated.

2. 3-4 years ago I'd agree easily....they're starting to come around though..but I'd say agree and disagree .

3. Agree. I don't know if/when these are ever going to come around...30 years from now these might be amazing...but so what? Maybe for the next generation will care...I don't. Even the low end wines here are still tannic beasts...

yes, that is a great point and I thoroughly agree. I still don't understand why people think a wine that takes 40 years to be at it's peak is a good thing. Pretty much no-one can afford high end Burgundy or Bordeaux when they are 30, so waiting more than a generation to drink a wine I think is absurd.
Absolutely, 2005's might well be magic in another 30 years, but frankly, I don't give a toss.
2005 is a great vintage, or may be a great vintage, for the scribes to wax lyrical about, and for billionaires to buy cellared stock in 2060 and marvel at their quality, but none of that helps us poor suckers who purchased the stuff to drink.
I had an 2005 Arnoux VILLAGE Vosne Romanee the other day that is certainly decades from being drinkable. It is currently a tannic monster devoid of any pleasure.

[phillisc]

Riesling that cost more than 50 dollars...absurd!!
they are the cheapest wines to make , picked, fermented,put into stainless, filtered, bottled all in the space of a couple of months and on the shelves straight after that.

Cheers Craig

[Polymer]

yes, that is a great point and I thoroughly agree. I still don't understand why people think a wine that takes 40 years to be at it's peak is a good thing. Pretty much no-one can afford high end Burgundy or Bordeaux when they are 30, so waiting more than a generation to drink a wine I think is absurd.
Absolutely, 2005's might well be magic in another 30 years, but frankly, I don't give a toss.
2005 is a great vintage, or may be a great vintage, for the scribes to wax lyrical about, and for billionaires to buy cellared stock in 2060 and marvel at their quality, but none of that helps us poor suckers who purchased the stuff to drink.
I had an 2005 Arnoux VILLAGE Vosne Romanee the other day that is certainly decades from being drinkable. It is currently a tannic monster devoid of any pleasure.

Yeah exactly...I can believe 2005 will be a historic vintage..a generation or two from now...it just isn't an attractive buy..and yet it'll be cellared forever..drunk periodically for educational purposes only to be extremely disappointed. Some of the really lesser lesser known bordeaux from that vintage was high quality, so high quality these 10 dollar bottles are still not ready to drink and show no signs of becoming ready...

I've tried some Dujac 2005 that has been coming around...which was a surprise...but in general, I agree with you..it isn't the type of vintage I want from Burgundy.

I'm sure they'll age fantastically well...and I think they'll come around sooner than 2005 Bordeaux...

Personally I like 2007 (Burgundy) better than 2005..and 2007 isn't supposed to be a great vintage and yes, for aging it isn't...but very enjoyable anyways...

[gggaz]

Increasingly, I have noticed more and more people in the sales arm of this industry loudly espouse, or at least tacitly accept the virtues of biodynamics, the efficacy of it's methods and the veracity of it's claims. The proof would appear to be in the pudding, as there are many big name BD producers who's wines are clearly excellent. It is apparently then "self-evident".

The underlying implication to me in this line of thinking, is that because XYZ practice biodynamics (and they make great wines), that homeopathy, magical thinking, astrology, channelling, cosmic energy, sorcery and alchemy are all true by default and are somehow exempt from any sort of scientific testing. We can take our understanding of Newton's laws, Einstein's equations, we can just bin all of physics really.

I don't think most BD apologists pursue this train of thought this far. I think most are just ignorant and think it's kind of like an organics beyond organics, like it's the ultimate way to farm grapes. Who can blame them, that's the way it's been marketed. But these people are out of touch with reality. They are either ignorant, or propping themselves up to their peers on a form of grandstanding virtue-signalling, because they are misled by this notion that BD is somehow the most "environmentally friendly" of all farming methods.

And I think vignerons who practice BD are deluded. They are following a set of guidelines that a racist, homophobic,c egocentric old farmer pulled out of his arse a whole century ago.
They cling onto the cliche of "well at least we're tending our vines carefully and not poisoning the earth with chemicals".
Many farming methods eschew systemic pesticides and herbicides, and even many use composting techniques. Apologists love to draw a false dichotomy between BD and "conventional" farming, so they look like angels by comparison. They are even quick to distance themselves from Organics (because it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no conclusive difference between BD and Organic farming in [url=http://www.ajevonline.org/content/56/4/367]soil biodiversity, wine grape health[/url], [url=https://journals.ashs.org/horttech/view/jour ... e-p814.xml]microbial activity[/url], or [url=https://vinepair.com/articles/lunar-cycles-biodynamic-wine/]any[/url] measurable [url=https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id ... ne.0169257]metric[/url] really).
Nobody who cares about wine and cares about the planet wants to poison the earth and is in favour of mass-produced, recipe-made bulk wine. But there are more than 2 ways to farm grapes.

To me, it fundamentally matters what is true and what can be proven. And the burden of proof lies with those who support and practice BD methods. When someone tells you that BD is "self-evidently true" or they rest on cliches like "holistic" and "science doesn't know everything", they should immediately pay an intellectual price for their beliefs, similar to how someone who tells you that Elvis is still alive or that aliens visit them in the night pay an intellectual price and your opinion of them immediately lowers. This is how we should treat people who go on about root days and other such nonsense.

It may not be an unpopular opinion to have on an online message board, but I have found it difficult to find people in this business who agree with me.

Sorry for the rant but it felt good to get that off of my chest.

[Ozzie W]

In the right moment, a chilled rose can be absolutely sublime.

AGREE, but not Aussie Rose.

AGREE, except for Aussie Rosé made from Nebbiolo where I DISAGREE. It's a completely different beast to the usual Aussie stuff. They're very dry and savoury with lots of complexity and no "lolly water" element (which I detest even in small amounts). I think the 2017's Rosé's from Adelina, Domenica and Latta are excellent.

[Ozzie W]

Increasingly, I have noticed more and more people in the sales arm of this industry loudly espouse, or at least tacitly accept the virtues of biodynamics, the efficacy of it's methods and the veracity of it's claims. The proof would appear to be in the pudding, as there are many big name BD producers who's wines are clearly excellent. It is apparently then "self-evident".

The underlying implication to me in this line of thinking, is that because XYZ practice biodynamics (and they make great wines), that homeopathy, magical thinking, astrology, channelling, cosmic energy, sorcery and alchemy are all true by default and are somehow exempt from any sort of scientific testing. We can take our understanding of Newton's laws, Einstein's equations, we can just bin all of physics really.

AGREE. Correlation does not imply causation.

[Ian S]

I have a myriad of unpopular opinions...but will keep them to myself...other wise I will be like Sam and looking for a Brexit strategy...

'Brexit' and 'strategy' seem rather incongruous bedfellows

[phillisc]

I have a myriad of unpopular opinions...but will keep them to myself...other wise I will be like Sam and looking for a Brexit strategy...

'Brexit' and 'strategy' seem rather incongruous bedfellows

Agree Ian, a delicious irony maybe....or an oxymoron...who knows!
Watching with interest and strangely enough Adam Hills last leg show that we get a week behind here in Oz provides a simple to understand (perhaps that's me) commentary on all things British. Certainly plenty of talk on May and Corbyn.
Talk of all the young people being given alarm clocks or text reminders so they can set their phones and get out of bed early enough to vote second time round.
Having a month in the UK later this year, so will be good to catch up with the word on the streets so to speak.

Cheers
Craig

[winetastic]

Many / most red wines under screwcap from the mid 2000s onward have not aged gracefully

[RogerPike]

Increasingly, I have noticed more and more people in the sales arm of this industry loudly espouse, or at least tacitly accept the virtues of biodynamics, the efficacy of it's methods and the veracity of it's claims. The proof would appear to be in the pudding, as there are many big name BD producers who's wines are clearly excellent. It is apparently then "self-evident".

The underlying implication to me in this line of thinking, is that because XYZ practice biodynamics (and they make great wines), that homeopathy, magical thinking, astrology, channelling, cosmic energy, sorcery and alchemy are all true by default and are somehow exempt from any sort of scientific testing. We can take our understanding of Newton's laws, Einstein's equations, we can just bin all of physics really.

I don't think most BD apologists pursue this train of thought this far. I think most are just ignorant and think it's kind of like an organics beyond organics, like it's the ultimate way to farm grapes. Who can blame them, that's the way it's been marketed. But these people are out of touch with reality. They are either ignorant, or propping themselves up to their peers on a form of grandstanding virtue-signalling, because they are misled by this notion that BD is somehow the most "environmentally friendly" of all farming methods.

And I think vignerons who practice BD are deluded. They are following a set of guidelines that a racist, homophobic,c egocentric old farmer pulled out of his arse a whole century ago.
They cling onto the cliche of "well at least we're tending our vines carefully and not poisoning the earth with chemicals".
Many farming methods eschew systemic pesticides and herbicides, and even many use composting techniques. Apologists love to draw a false dichotomy between BD and "conventional" farming, so they look like angels by comparison. They are even quick to distance themselves from Organics (because it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no conclusive difference between BD and Organic farming in [url=http://www.ajevonline.org/content/56/4/367]soil biodiversity, wine grape health[/url], [url=https://journals.ashs.org/horttech/view/jour ... e-p814.xml]microbial activity[/url], or [url=https://vinepair.com/articles/lunar-cycles-biodynamic-wine/]any[/url] measurable [url=https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id ... ne.0169257]metric[/url] really).
Nobody who cares about wine and cares about the planet wants to poison the earth and is in favour of mass-produced, recipe-made bulk wine. But there are more than 2 ways to farm grapes.

To me, it fundamentally matters what is true and what can be proven. And the burden of proof lies with those who support and practice BD methods. When someone tells you that BD is "self-evidently true" or they rest on cliches like "holistic" and "science doesn't know everything", they should immediately pay an intellectual price for their beliefs, similar to how someone who tells you that Elvis is still alive or that aliens visit them in the night pay an intellectual price and your opinion of them immediately lowers. This is how we should treat people who go on about root days and other such nonsense.

It may not be an unpopular opinion to have on an online message board, but I have found it difficult to find people in this business who agree with me.

Sorry for the rant but it felt good to get that off of my chest.

Agree

[RogerPike]

Many / most red wines under screwcap from the mid 2000s onward have not aged gracefully

Disagree

[Ozzie W]

Many / most red wines under screwcap from the mid 2000s onward have not aged gracefully

[img]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/7155 ... one-it.jpg[/img]

[Barney]

Riesling that cost more than 50 dollars...absurd!!
they are the cheapest wines to make , picked, fermented,put into stainless, filtered, bottled all in the space of a couple of months and on the shelves straight after that.

Cheers Craig

Absolutely agree, even +$30 is a stretch....

[JamieBahrain]

Australian wines are actually very good and some of the best value in the world. ( A )

Value does matter in appreciating wine. (D)

In the right moment, a chilled rose can be absolutely sublime. ( D )

Burgundy is a scam. ( A )