Unicorn wines of the future..

[TiggerK]

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread
The wine should be of world standard
What comes to mind is

1977 Mt Mary Cabernet
1984 Seppelts Eden Valley Riesling
1973 1975 Leo Buring John Vickery wines

And what about the original question michel? Any more recent potential contenders in your view?

[Wayno]

I had a Richmond Grove 97 Riesling a few years back that was dazzlingly good. Not sure how it’s looking now...

[michel]

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread
The wine should be of world standard
What comes to mind is

1977 Mt Mary Cabernet
1984 Seppelts Eden Valley Riesling
1973 1975 Leo Buring John Vickery wines

And what about the original question michel? Any more recent potential contenders in your view?

I am looking for the thread but
You need to take an overall perspective approach
And
Look at Quality
We make seriously better wines
But so few World Class Wines in palate structure and style

You can’t predict but as I said previously I guessed freak Cabernet or Riesling
I welcome other ideas

[George Krashos]

And the freaks take a while to show themselves. If they haven't been drunk already.

-- George Krashos

[michel]

And the freaks take a while to show themselves. If they haven't been drunk already.

-- George Krashos

I couldn’t agree more

[phillisc]

I had a Richmond Grove 97 Riesling a few years back that was dazzlingly good. Not sure how it’s looking now...

Wayno, have a six pack of these somewhere in the cellar, remember details on the back label stating 'being Stelvin capped exclusively for Vintage Cellars and a three decade lifespan'. Will track one down.

cheers Craig

[rosewaterwrx]

In terms of rarity and based on wines that I've personally had from recent vintages:

L'Enclos Du Tertre Riesling 2017 - Real Wow wine, incredible length and depth. Purity and interest. The best young Australian Riesling I've had by some way. Stylistically different but a clear step up from Grosset Polish Hill and harder to get hold of.
Mount Pleasant Mountain C 2014- Stunning. Right in my wheelhouse stylistically and I notice these are selling for up to $126 at auction already.
Mount Pleasant 1965 Rosehill 2014 As above. Perhaps a little more in the tank as far as longevity.
Dr Edge South Pinot Noir 2017 - The standard Edge blend is outstanding and this is a step up. Something very special IMO.
Holyman Chardonnay 2015 - Best Australian Chardonnay I've had. Or at least the equal of a small handful.

Wines I have personally have not tried (at least the vintages mentioned)

Tyrrell's 4 Acres 2014 - Rarity, quality, vintage etc. So glad I managed to sneak in with a standing order after loving the 04 in-particular but dithering for years.
Tyrrell's 8 Acres 2018- Pure speculation as it it is yet to be released (I believe the first vintage release will be 2018 and from a vineyard planted in 1892). Pure speculation based on the vintage, winery and age of the vineyard. I'm incredibly curious to learn more however.

[swirler]

Not sure how you can recommend a wine you've never ever tasted!

[Ian S]

I suppose that makes it a genuine unicorn wine!

[Wizz]

Wasn't going to wade in here but here goes...

If unicorn wines are the future Penfolds Bin 7's, The Colin Preece wines etc - I wonder whether they will ever emerge the same way, given how the making marketing and consuming of wine has changed over recent decades.

Also - one thing that's common (but not universal) is that the wines in question got no attention when they were young or when they were new brands. Michel's example of that 1984 Seppelt Riesling is the classic case - undrinkable in its youth but now its evergreen. In this day of information access and communication, I just don't think it will work this way.

I'd like to think there will be riesling son that list but I've tasted widely around the world, and agree with Jamie - Australian Riesling isnt the world leader.

IF I had to pick a few Michel's list is closest. Add the 82 Noble One. Mid 70s VP styles from Hardys. Early vintage Wendouree. The top end mt Pleasant wines.

[GraemeG]

at the risk of causing the forum to melt down, I just dont see cullen's aging well. Probably just me....

Mixed experience here: 2001 definitely fared better than 1998 and 1999. The price rises have long since been too much for me, though I'd stump up for their Chardonnay again.

2001 still looks like plenty of time left

I liked the 09, but thought the 01 was average, and the 99 weak. The heralded 95 I wasn't impressed with either. The Cullen DM is rather an unclothed emperor for me. Same goes for Grosset rieslings in general. Yes, I'd agree that while a lot of local riesling is sound and very drinkable, 'boring' isn't a bad word for most of it...
Graeme

[rooman]

I liked the 09, but thought the 01 was average, and the 99 weak. The heralded 95 I wasn't impressed with either. The Cullen DM is rather an unclothed emperor for me. Same goes for Grosset rieslings in general. Yes, I'd agree that while a lot of local riesling is sound and very drinkable, 'boring' isn't a bad word for most of it...
Graeme

In defence of Grosset rieslings, as a general rule of thumb, I much prefer the Springvale to the Polish Hill. I often just struggle with the acid levels in the Polish Hill even out around 15 years or so. The exception being the 2017 Polish Hill which I have tried at a tasting thought it was superb.

[deejay81]

In defence of Grosset rieslings, as a general rule of thumb, I much prefer the Springvale to the Polish Hill. I often just struggle with the acid levels in the Polish Hill even out around 15 years or so. The exception being the 2017 Polish Hill which I have tried at a tasting thought it was superb.

You need more than 15 years for the Polish Hill if you want a nicely aged one... I've had 3 or 4 '02 PH's in the last year now and they are "better" (being subjective) than the 3 or 4 '02 Springvales I've had in the same time period. The '02 Springvales are still very good, but I would still take PH.

In addition to the above, as young wines, if you like more minerality and higher levels of acid, then you would also take the PH over the Springvale.

[rooman]

In defence of Grosset rieslings, as a general rule of thumb, I much prefer the Springvale to the Polish Hill. I often just struggle with the acid levels in the Polish Hill even out around 15 years or so. The exception being the 2017 Polish Hill which I have tried at a tasting thought it was superb.

You need more than 15 years for the Polish Hill if you want a nicely aged one... I've had 3 or 4 '02 PH's in the last year now and they are "better" (being subjective) than the 3 or 4 '02 Springvales I've had in the same time period. The '02 Springvales are still very good, but I would still take PH.

In addition to the above, as young wines, if you like more minerality and higher levels of acid, then you would also take the PH over the Springvale.

I agree out 15-20 years Polish Hill is out ahead of the Springvale and terms of Unicorn wines would be the winner.

As a younger wine, say out around 8-10, I would much prefer the Springvale, it has a lighter touch and yet still delivers an amazing range of flavour and complexity. By way of contrast, a couple of ‘09 PHs sitting in the garage wine fridge I intend to return to the main cellar as they’re just not that enjoyable to drink now. The acid levels are just too severe for my palate.

[rosewaterwrx]

Not sure how you can recommend a wine you've never ever tasted!

As I said I was speculating, not recommending. Pure speculation as a bit of fun, nothing more. In 50 years time you may look back and think ' Ahh that man was ahead of his time

[n4sir]

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread

Yeah, I also thought this thread is covering the exact same ground from a couple of years ago:
http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 47#p140747

We've all heard about some of the legendary Australian wines of the 20th century:
- Wynns Michael 1955
- Lindemans Bin 3110 1965
- Peppermint Patties
- O'Shea's wines
- Grange 1971
- John Riddoch 1982
- Graveyard 1986

A lot more of course.

What are the Australian wines of the last 16 years that will reach legendary status similar to the wines above?

Tyrrell's 4 Acres 2014 seems to be a candidate, judging from recent pro reviews.

At first it seemed a little early to make some predictions, until I realised we are already a sixth of the way in!

In the spirit of the legendary wines mentioned, when looking for potential equals to be fought and savoured over in future I would predict the following so far:


Safe bets...

2002 Leo Buring DWF18 Watervale Riesling - a classic from undeniably the best Clare Riesling vintage this century (and for that matter, probably ever), this shone at a recent horizontal tasting. Both 2002 Grossets are also certainties to be future legends, while the Jim Barry Florita and Petaluma Hanlin Hill are also in the ballpark.

2005 Penfolds Cellar Reserve Gewurztraminer - a freak of a wine, after giving my last bottle away (to a good cause) I wish I could find another

2002 Henschke Mount Edelstone Shiraz - 2004, 2005 & 2010 could be in contention here too, but at the moment I favour the International award winner.

2004 Penfolds St Henri Shiraz - I will call it now, it's better than 2012, and a lot better than the (overhyped) 2010.

2004 Penfolds Bin 707 Cabernet Sauvignon

Penfolds Magill Estate Shiraz 2010, 2012 - the last two iconic vintages before the vines were rejuvinated.

Penfolds Grange 2004, 2008, 2010 (The 2012 Grange is even more overhyped than the 2010 St Henri)

2010 Penfolds Bin 169 Coonawarra Cabernet - I agree with Malcolm, this is a (relatively for Penfolds) underrated classic in the making. 2008 is bloody good too.

Although I have not tried them, most likely the 2004 Penfolds Bin 60A & Block 42 given the vintage and the resources that went into them.


Some bolder calls, and some real long shots...

2002 Kalleske Greenock Shiraz - a cult wine in its youth, this was the vintage that really smashed down doors here and in the USA for Troy & Tony. I feel quietly confident about this one, especially while Kalleske continue their upward trajectory.

2004 Majella Cabernet Sauvignon - I could easily pick 2005, 2010 & 2012 too. Criminally underrated, will the price ever really reflect just how bloody superb these wines are?

2007 Howard Park Abercrombie - speaking of criminally underrated, this wine should really get a lot more kudos. 2005 is also outstanding.

2012 Wynns Coonawarra Estate Child's Vineyard Cabernet - something about this one of all their recent releases just seems special, call it a hunch but I reckon it has real potential.

Saltrams Winemaker's Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon 2002, 2004, 2012 - another underrated gem, although being released sporadically probably hurts its profile.

2002 De Bortoli Noble One - a possibilty here for all the wrong reasons, (to date) the last really classic vintage of Noble One before the wheels fell off. The wines are now being made cloyingly sweet, and you can see the colour changing in the bottles of later vintages much, much earlier indicating advanced development. This used to be Australia's pinacle botrytis wine, sadly not since the 2002 vintage...

2004 Bremerton Old Adam Shiraz - remember when this made such a splash when Halliday gave it an insane rating? Will it be just as highly regarded in 20-50 years time? Maybe not, but it's still probably worth mentioning...

2003 Yering Station Reserve Shiraz Viognier - yep you read right, all the things I would usually hate, SV blend, 15% alc, yet this won something like 16 show trophies and has the distinction of being the only one of these evil blends that I really rate. It was still going strong a few years ago - in 20 or so years time when everyone forgets the stigma associated with the words shiraz and viogner being used together, could it be recognised as a classic? That said, a Clonakilla will very likely be considered the accepted benchmark, especially while it occupies an upper ledge on the Langtons classification table.

[JamieBahrain]

2004 Penfolds St Henri Shiraz - I will call it now, it's better than 2012, and a lot better than the (overhyped) 2010.

I checked my cellar and I have a case. But only 91.8 cellar tracker points

[TiggerK]

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread

Yeah, I also thought this thread is covering the exact same ground from a couple of years ago:
http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 47#p140747

And your point is what?? We can't have a similar discussion twice? Or I should zombie up that thread? Or you just enjoyed calling me out?

P.S Do we prefer screwcap or cork? What's the best value Barossa Shiraz? I'm visiting NZ soon, what wineries should I visit?

[n4sir]

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread

Yeah, I also thought this thread is covering the exact same ground from a couple of years ago:
http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 47#p140747

And your point is what?? We can't have a similar discussion twice? Or I should zombie up that thread? Or you just enjoyed calling me out?

P.S Do we prefer screwcap or cork? What's the best value Barossa Shiraz? I'm visiting NZ soon, what wineries should I visit?

Settle down. I was just backing up Michel's thought that we've visited this topic before, provided the link he was looking for, and saved myself some typing time by quoting what I said back then.

Is it worth discussing this topic again? Absolutely.

Is it worth starting a completely new thread when one basically already exists? Dunno. I guess you could argue this does allow a little more scope as people are quoting wines pre-2001 (as the previous one was looking for future legends from this century).

[TiggerK]

Hmm, I suppose plenty of topics get repeated ad nauseum over the years, what's one more if it stimulates some conversation....

We'll no doubt see many great wines that have stood the test of time and evolved into something even more special than was anticipated. And as was rightly pointed out, they take time to show themselves, and will sometimes surprise us all from out of nowhere. Will be interesting to see how the millennials and Gen Z currently getting into wine treat this kind of subject too, will it be skin contact chenin blanc from New England that gets the future hype instead of old unfashionable corporate bohemoths like Penfolds.

The real trick is keeping our hands off them!! e.g Holyman 2015 Chard is drinking so superbly right now, brimming with acid, energy and life that I'm not really sure I want to risk cellaring my few remaining bottles for 5+ more years. Easy choice if I had a dozen to sit on, would be interesting to see how they evolve, but when only a couple remain why risk it when they give such great pleasure now?

[swirler]

We have had this discussion previously
Am still looking for the thread

Yeah, I also thought this thread is covering the exact same ground from a couple of years ago:
http://forum.auswine.com.au/viewtopic.php?f ... 47#p140747

And your point is what?? We can't have a similar discussion twice? Or I should zombie up that thread? Or you just enjoyed calling me out?

P.S Do we prefer screwcap or cork? What's the best value Barossa Shiraz? I'm visiting NZ soon, what wineries should I visit?

Pretty inappropriate comments.

[TiggerK]

Not sure if you mean me or them, but either way let's stick to the topic people! It's Friday, no time for conflict, sorry if I was abrupt or grumpy, just felt the response was a bit pedantic.

[swirler]

You TK, but let's move on!

[TiggerK]

Got anything to contribute on the actual topic swirler?

[rooman]

2004 Penfolds St Henri Shiraz - I will call it now, it's better than 2012, and a lot better than the (overhyped) 2010.

I checked my cellar and I have a case. But only 91.8 cellar tracker points

Don’t touch it. I opened one last year and they are still brooding teenagers - creatures best left in another room all by themselves. I definitely won’t open another this decade.

[rooman]

It’s interesting people are picking quite a few from the 2004 vintage in SA. At the time I remember picking up a wide range of different wines. Until recently a number of the wines have all been fairly unapproachable including the Mt Ed, St Henri and 389 and I’d been a tad worried. But the standard Balnavies from 04 with a decent five hour decant earlier this week was just superb and I suspect many of the 04s listed above will be legends in due course. If nothing else they will be seriously long living wines.

[rooman]

Not sure if you mean me or them, but either way let's stick to the topic people! It's Friday, no time for conflict, sorry if I was abrupt or grumpy, just felt the response was a bit pedantic.

Nope, about par for the course.

[Ian S]

the Penfolds 2004 St Henri was the last bottle of Penfolds wine I bought (excepting perhaps a Koonunga 76 when it was briefly released to retail - I recall it's targeted at the on-trade). The price was sharp - maybe c. GBP25-30

Always bought with the long haul in mind, so none of the 7 bottles have been opened yet. Might open the first at 2 decades old.

[mjs]

I'd be happy to have the Penfolds ''96 and '04 Block42 and '04 Bin60A as unicorn wines of the future for me.

[michel]

I am always intrigued by the mixed reports on 2001 Cullen DM
I have screwcap
Purchased cellar door upon release
Cellared perfectly
And they are still young and wonderful