dingozegan wrote: I would add that there's one influence a cork closure has on wine that screwcaps don't (that has nothing to do with OTR or TCA and) that I think is often overlooked: flavour impact. Many corks do give a slightly woody note to wines, and in some cases (particularly reds with oak influence) that can be an attractive feature (that I think a lot of people aren't even aware of). It's never a huge impact (with a decent cork and a flavourfull enough wine), but sometimes is can have enough influence to make a difference to (at least) the aroma of a wine.
I think there's a place for both closures (at the moment at least), and I'm sure time will show which kind of OTR winemakers and consumers prefer for which kinds of wine. The closures will adjust accordingly.
I'm pretty convinced part of the flavor we associate with aged wines IS the cork...I'm actually beginning to think that the flavor/smell we detect when a wine is corked is in all wines..it is just TCA blocks the receptors for other flavors...
Maybe this is needed for what we generally think of as aged wine..or at least what we expect...maybe it ends up being as pivotal as oak in that regard...
rossmckay wrote:Cork problems are not an issue at all, customer service is the issue.
Generally Australia is good about this though...other countries, not always so easy...not to mention what about that bottle you bought 20 years ago? You probably can't return it (although if it is an Australian wine, the wineries are very good about this) but even if you can, you're not getting the same wine back...
As an Australuan expat I've been dismayed by the acceptance of cork taint abroad. I do two to three fine wine dinners per month and seeing first hand, the rate of attrition of ultra- premium wine to taint is distressing . It rubs off. My ambitions are for a 5000 bottle cellar and I'm feeling a nonchalance and acceptance that 500 of these wines will be affected by cork with non-Australian wines having little chance of refund.
The new and emerging issue of screw cap reducing some wines to dreadful to modest berry dominated wines is a concern too. Some gear bought as premium wine will not develop in the manner hoped ( by the winemaker too ) and could represent a 100% failure rate. What charged at a premium that after cellaring for 10 years drinks like concoction - a spirit infused year old barbera of sorts.
I recall Henschke stating that their trials did not deliver a panecea with the first generation of screwcaps though taint issues so significant their hands virtually tied .
Agree on whites. Australia and Austrian have been dramatic . The white burgundy fiasco is almost sad. Arguably the worlds greatest white wines aren't worth the punt .
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
JamieBahrain wrote:The white burgundy fiasco is almost sad. Arguably the worlds greatest white wines aren't worth the punt .
The irony is the massive price escalation over the period of premox. I'm not entirely sure why there are still buyers. It is a truly disgraceful situation, and I guess the arrogance of the producers is justified if there are people buying at the prices being asked.
FWIW we buy a little Macon and tend to drink it inside 5-6 years. Nothing else, even though I'd be much more interested if I could trust the bottles to age as they always used to.
Couldn't agree more RE white burgundy. I opened a 2011 GC Corton Charlemagne the other day because I wasn't convinced the tertiary improvement was worth the risk of taint and/or premox. It was fine but the last ultra premium white burgundy I will buy.
That being said a 2006 Leroy BB on the following night was just extraordinary.
On the subject of Macon, on which I am in total agreement, Vire Clesse seems to be generating some good wines. A Bret Bros the other day was punching well above it's weight.
rossmckay wrote:Couldn't agree more RE white burgundy. I opened a 2011 GC Corton Charlemagne the other day because I wasn't convinced the tertiary improvement was worth the risk of taint and/or premox. It was fine but the last ultra premium white burgundy I will buy.
That being said a 2006 Leroy BB on the following night was just extraordinary.
On the subject of Macon, on which I am in total agreement, Vire Clesse seems to be generating some good wines. A Bret Bros the other day was punching well above it's weight.
It may be that you only buy white burgs at a restaurant. The extra markup on the bottle would be justified because the risk all sits with the restaurant. If it is corked or oxidised you send it back.
never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Please , this is not religious fanatasism,it's a discussion . I'm not a screw cap hater I've observed scew cap stunt in some early reds. Be more than happy if all is well !
Yeah Ok, hater is a bit too strong but "Screw cap" issue has been discussed so many times in so such detail and is accepted as an very viable alternative closure to cork. When out of the blue people bring it back again especially talking/condemning what horrible things supposedly it does to wine, it looks like fanaticism rather than discussion.
ufo wrote:If you want to see how beautifully/gracefully red wine also ages under screw cap, get your hands on a bottle of Marius 2002 shiraz under screw cap ... if you do, If I were you I would organise a tasting with it to shut up screw cap haters.
Maybe I've missed something here but I don't recall reading anything in these posts which could be characterized as "screw cap haters". Jamie said that he had issues with some early screw cap wines from about a decade ago - please note, [u]some wines, not all.
[/u]
Gary W wrote:Dog Point is a benchmark NZ SB. Great producer.
Yes, both Dog Point and Greywacke are great SB producers, but what about their Chardonnays, and in particular their 2009 vintage of Chardonnay.
Gary W wrote:White wines you can see by colour. Red wines, there is a case, though colour is a clue too, but too late when opening bottle.
Agreed, but what I was wondering is why would heat affect the colour of a white wine under cork and not screw cap?
Gotta say, Jamie has asked a very valid question of some complexity that has sparked a very interesting conversation that is (to me) a step well beyond the usual closure discussions (which I find dull too).
rossmckay wrote:Couldn't agree more RE white burgundy. I opened a 2011 GC Corton Charlemagne the other day because I wasn't convinced the tertiary improvement was worth the risk of taint and/or premox. It was fine but the last ultra premium white burgundy I will buy.
That being said a 2006 Leroy BB on the following night was just extraordinary.
On the subject of Macon, on which I am in total agreement, Vire Clesse seems to be generating some good wines. A Bret Bros the other day was punching well above it's weight.
It may be that you only buy white burgs at a restaurant. The extra markup on the bottle would be justified because the risk all sits with the restaurant. If it is corked or oxidised you send it back.
Sorry? Not with you on the 'extra markup' comment. Are you replying to my post or someone else? If it's the 'ultra premium' I'm referring to an industry price point above $100
rossmckay wrote:Couldn't agree more RE white burgundy. I opened a 2011 GC Corton Charlemagne the other day because I wasn't convinced the tertiary improvement was worth the risk of taint and/or premox. It was fine but the last ultra premium white burgundy I will buy.
That being said a 2006 Leroy BB on the following night was just extraordinary.
On the subject of Macon, on which I am in total agreement, Vire Clesse seems to be generating some good wines. A Bret Bros the other day was punching well above it's weight.
It may be that you only buy white burgs at a restaurant. The extra markup on the bottle would be justified because the risk all sits with the restaurant. If it is corked or oxidised you send it back.
Sorry? Not with you on the 'extra markup' comment. Are you replying to my post or someone else? If it's the 'ultra premium' I'm referring to an industry price point above $100
Just saying if you want tot drink white burgs it may be a risk mitigation strategy to only buy them when dining at a restaurant. At a restaurant, if the bottle is stuffed, then you send it back. All the risk then sits with the restaurant. The markup I'm talking about is the difference in price between the bottleshop/retailer and the wine list price that is always higher. The extra cost of wine at a restaurant my be worth paying if you have the ability to send a faulty bottle back.
never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
It may be that you only buy white burgs at a restaurant. The extra markup on the bottle would be justified because the risk all sits with the restaurant. If it is corked or oxidised you send it back.
Sorry? Not with you on the 'extra markup' comment. Are you replying to my post or someone else? If it's the 'ultra premium' I'm referring to an industry price point above $100
Just saying if you want tot drink white burgs it may be a risk mitigation strategy to only buy them when dining at a restaurant. At a restaurant, if the bottle is stuffed, then you send it back. All the risk then sits with the restaurant. The markup I'm talking about is the difference in price between the bottleshop/retailer and the wine list price that is always higher. The extra cost of wine at a restaurant my be worth paying if you have the ability to send a faulty bottle back.
Ah, gotcha. I can't afford top burgs in restaurants, more's the pity.
dingozegan wrote:I would add that there's one influence a cork closure has on wine that screwcaps don't (that has nothing to do with OTR or TCA and) that I think is often overlooked: flavour impact. Many corks do give a slightly woody note to wines, and in some cases (particularly reds with oak influence) that can be an attractive feature (that I think a lot of people aren't even aware of). It's never a huge impact (with a decent cork and a flavourfull enough wine), but sometimes is can have enough influence to make a difference to (at least) the aroma of a wine.
I'm pretty convinced part of the flavor we associate with aged wines IS the cork...I'm actually beginning to think that the flavor/smell we detect when a wine is corked is in all wines..it is just TCA blocks the receptors for other flavors...
I agree that there is cork tainted (non-TCA) aroma in every wine closed with cork, but I think it's not always above threshold so it's not always perceived. I definitely agree it's more influential and comment in terms of our association with aged wine. Some corks release flavour compounds (taint) more than others though. Generally corks of better quality are considered to be those that don't release as much flavour - it's even possible to see cork 'taint' being released by inferior corks when they are rehydrated in water.
Anyone care to comment on if shut down periods, or dumb phases, for wines will be extended, shortened or even made non existent in SC wines in the future? Say, some German Riesling shut down 3-8 years. Some Burgundy similar and even some CdP. Ok, I understand SC is as good as the best cork, but the best cork is like winning the lottery. SC is a great thing as far as I'm concerned but it is keeping 'all' wines very primary for longer where cork may keep a couple of lottery winning wines (purely a guess from experience, no data) primary for longer. So will it stretch out the primary phase before shut down. Say out to 0-8 years and then shut down for longer 8-20 years?
SC sure is a great thing but it still has plenty of unanswered questions for me. The above for one. Will I not have to be concerned about shut down phase. Will I ever be able to enjoy my Vin Jaune or TBA if it's under screw cap? Is the flavour adding something to a wine that I like in a 70 year old German TBA or Vin Jaune?
I should add that I have seen some absolutely s%#thouse corks come out of really old German and Vin Jaune wines that I'm sure were that bad when they were shoved in the bottle, a lot leaking as well and they have been absolutely sublime. So I'd come to the conclusion that you would need a very high air ingress for these type of wines. What would it be though.
Dragzworthy wrote:So it would seem as though the consensus view is leaning towards the following:
Screwcaps are good because there's no throwaway bottles as the case is with traditional corks However, there is some evidence (?) to suggest wine development maybe stunted in a screw cap
As such, screw caps are probably better suited toward more fruit forward wines that are supposed to be drunk "young"?
Wine does not get stunned under screw cap if it does that means the winemaker has no idea what he/she is doing. ONE DEFINETELY HAS TO ADJUST THE WINE MAKING TECHNIC TO SUIT SCREW CAP, HOW ?, JUST SEARCH SO MANY ARTICLES OUT THERE.
I don't know if it is just technique...I don't know if everyone knows for sure how wine ages...
Personally, I think if I were picking a closure, I'd use Ardea with a set ingress to that of a very good cork. Keep the winemaking the same...
If after 10 years I'm finding it isn't aging as expected I'd be convinced the cork itself is aging the wine in the way we find desirable...Having now eliminated oxygen ingress and assuming there is no chemical reaction w/ the Ardea, that would probably be my next conclusion...Wold probably then use the same closure and pop a piece of cork into some bottles at bottling as a test....or maybe I'd just do that from the start..
Polymer wrote:Wold probably then use the same closure and pop a piece of cork into some bottles at bottling as a test....or maybe I'd just do that from the start..
You might then being popping TCA into the bottles...
Either way I agree that the cork itself probably imparts some desirable flovours into the wine.
Red Smurf wrote:Anyone care to comment on if shut down periods, or dumb phases, for wines will be extended, shortened or even made non existent in SC wines in the future?
Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can really answer that question. The science of shut down periods/dumb phases isn't understood. Some people even question the existence of the phenomenon (I'm personally a believer), and it's kind of hard to define scientifically anyway.
Red Smurf wrote:I should add that I have seen some absolutely s%#thouse corks come out of really old German and Vin Jaune wines that I'm sure were that bad when they were shoved in the bottle, a lot leaking as well and they have been absolutely sublime. So I'd come to the conclusion that you would need a very high air ingress for these type of wines. What would it be though.
I could believe that old German whites and Vin Jaunes need (or can at least take) lots of air (comparatively).
ufo wrote:
Dragzworthy wrote:{...}view is leaning towards the following{...} there is some evidence (?) to suggest wine development maybe stunted in a screw cap As such, screw caps are probably better suited toward more fruit forward wines that are supposed to be drunk "young"?
Wine does not get {stunted*} under screw cap if it does that means the winemaker has no idea what he/she is doing. ONE DEFINETELY HAS TO ADJUST THE WINE MAKING TECHNIC TO SUIT SCREW CAP, HOW ?, JUST SEARCH SO MANY ARTICLES OUT THERE.
Winemaking technique can't completely adjust to suit the oxygen transmission rate (OTR) of the closure. Sure, it can accommodate to some extent, and the industry consensus seems to be that winemakers in Australia have adjusted SO2 regimes to account for the low OTR of Stelvin, so that the problems with reductive whites that appeared in the early days of Stelvin aren't happening anymore. But that's a different issue. Even if you made a wine with lower SO2, the OTR of the Stelvin is lower than that of the average cork^, then the ageing of that wine is going to be slower under Stelvin than it would be under most of the bottles closed with cork.
*I'm assuming you mean stunted (rather than stunned), because development during ageing is what this thread is about (rather than bottle shock).
A pendantic point, but it seems worth mentioning that not all screwcaps are the same because different liners can be applied (which offer different OTR). (The Stelvin range is probably the most common in Australia and offers a few different liners.) Like I said earlier, and it could just be my incorrect impression, but the different liners aren't being confidently matched to different wine styles yet.
Red Smurf wrote:Anyone care to comment on if shut down periods, or dumb phases, for wines will be extended, shortened or even made non existent in SC wines in the future?
Unfortunately, I don't think anyone can really answer that question. The science of shut down periods/dumb phases isn't understood. Some people even question the existence of the phenomenon (I'm personally a believer), and it's kind of hard to define scientifically anyway.
Red Smurf wrote:I should add that I have seen some absolutely s%#thouse corks come out of really old German and Vin Jaune wines that I'm sure were that bad when they were shoved in the bottle, a lot leaking as well and they have been absolutely sublime. So I'd come to the conclusion that you would need a very high air ingress for these type of wines. What would it be though.
I could believe that old German whites and Vin Jaunes need (or can at least take) lots of air (comparatively).
ufo wrote:
Dragzworthy wrote:{...}view is leaning towards the following{...} there is some evidence (?) to suggest wine development maybe stunted in a screw cap As such, screw caps are probably better suited toward more fruit forward wines that are supposed to be drunk "young"?
Wine does not get {stunted*} under screw cap if it does that means the winemaker has no idea what he/she is doing. ONE DEFINETELY HAS TO ADJUST THE WINE MAKING TECHNIC TO SUIT SCREW CAP, HOW ?, JUST SEARCH SO MANY ARTICLES OUT THERE.
Winemaking technique can't completely adjust to suit the oxygen transmission rate (OTR) of the closure. Sure, it can accommodate to some extent, and the industry consensus seems to be that winemakers in Australia have adjusted SO2 regimes to account for the low OTR of Stelvin, so that the problems with reductive whites that appeared in the early days of Stelvin aren't happening anymore. But that's a different issue. Even if you made a wine with lower SO2, the OTR of the Stelvin is lower than that of the average cork^, then the ageing of that wine is going to be slower under Stelvin than it would be under most of the bottles closed with cork.
*I'm assuming you mean stunted (rather than stunned), because development during ageing is what this thread is about (rather than bottle shock).
You can get screw cap at any permeability rate you want. if you adjust your technique to the level of permeability you're going to have with screw cap, there is no issue at all
ufo wrote:You can get screw cap at any permeability rate you want. if you adjust your technique to the level of permeability you're going to have with screw cap, there is no issue at all
And once they work out the right amount of permeability for any given wine in any given vintage the debate on oxygen will be over. It will take time but it will happen
ufo wrote:If you want to see how beautifully/gracefully red wine also ages under screw cap, get your hands on a bottle of Marius 2002 shiraz under screw cap ... if you do, If I were you I would organise a tasting with it to shut up screw cap haters.
Maybe I've missed something here but I don't recall reading anything in these posts which could be characterized as "screw cap haters". Jamie said that he had issues with some early screw cap wines from about a decade ago - please note, some wines, not all.
Gary W wrote:Dog Point is a benchmark NZ SB. Great producer.
Yes, both Dog Point and Greywacke are great SB producers, but what about their Chardonnays, and in particular their 2009 vintage of Chardonnay.
Gary W wrote:White wines you can see by colour. Red wines, there is a case, though colour is a clue too, but too late when opening bottle.
Agreed, but what I was wondering is why would heat affect the colour of a white wine under cork and not screw cap?
Cheers.......................Mahmoud.
What I'm saying is you can see the colour gone on screwcapped wines too. Reds much harder.
ufo wrote:If you want to see how beautifully/gracefully red wine also ages under screw cap, get your hands on a bottle of Marius 2002 shiraz under screw cap ... if you do, If I were you I would organise a tasting with it to shut up screw cap haters.
Maybe I've missed something here but I don't recall reading anything in these posts which could be characterized as "screw cap haters". Jamie said that he had issues with some early screw cap wines from about a decade ago - please note, some wines, not all.
Gary W wrote:Dog Point is a benchmark NZ SB. Great producer.
Yes, both Dog Point and Greywacke are great SB producers, but what about their Chardonnays, and in particular their 2009 vintage of Chardonnay.
Gary W wrote:White wines you can see by colour. Red wines, there is a case, though colour is a clue too, but too late when opening bottle.
Agreed, but what I was wondering is why would heat affect the colour of a white wine under cork and not screw cap?
Cheers.......................Mahmoud.
Because the expansion of the liquid can force it up the sides of the cork, breaking the 'air-tight' seal as it retreats when cooling. The air that gets in contributes to the accelerated ageing and darker colouring. This doesn't/shouldn't happen under screwcap because it is better able to resist the pressure of the expanding liquid, so the 'air-tight' seal isn't compromised.
Gary W wrote:What I'm saying is you can see the colour gone on screwcapped wines too. Reds much harder.
Ah, yes, of course. I misunderstood, strangely thinking that you had said something else. It is quite the sight sometimes, seeing a handful of older whites on a retailer's shelf and seeing a range of shades in bottles of whites of the very same vintage. A few years ago, I saw a dozen Italian Soaves on a clearance rack and almost every bottle was of a different shade. I can only imagine that it had be exposed to sunlight or heat, or maybe both. Most recently I came across some 2009 Chilean Chardonnays and one of the bottles had a lower fill and was visibly darker in colour even through the darker glass. The staff member agreed and immediately removed it.
Raymo wrote:Because the expansion of the liquid can force it up the sides of the cork, breaking the 'air-tight' seal as it retreats when cooling. The air that gets in contributes to the accelerated ageing and darker colouring. This doesn't/shouldn't happen under screwcap because it is better able to resist the pressure of the expanding liquid, so the 'air-tight' seal isn't compromised.
I'm not sure that a cork that protrudes due to excessive heat will retreat upon returning to normal temperature as I have seen protruding corks on wines in a normal setting.
ufo wrote:You can get screw cap at any permeability rate you want. if you adjust your technique to the level of permeability you're going to have with screw cap, there is no issue at all
And once they work out the right amount of permeability for any given wine in any given vintage the debate on oxygen will be over. It will take time but it will happen
yes it is wine depended but don't think same for vintage.
Raymo wrote:Because the expansion of the liquid can force it up the sides of the cork, breaking the 'air-tight' seal as it retreats when cooling. The air that gets in contributes to the accelerated ageing and darker colouring. This doesn't/shouldn't happen under screwcap because it is better able to resist the pressure of the expanding liquid, so the 'air-tight' seal isn't compromised.
I'm not sure that a cork that protrudes due to excessive heat will retreat upon returning to normal temperature as I have seen protruding corks on wines in a normal setting.
Mahmoud.
1) The cork doesn't necessarily have to protrude in all cases for air to get in or as an indication of heat stress; 2) I was referring to the liquid retreating (ie. no longer expanding), not the cork. Inevitably, as the pressure eases and the wine drops back from, for example, seeping up the circumference of the cork, it leaves a (temporary) space which air can fill.
Opened a cork and screw capped Aussie. Both professionally cellared.
Shiraz by Farr 2008- Geez. It was the tightest cork I've ever tried to pull. Unbelievable. Did it's job thankfully. This is wonderful wine. I drink Northern Rhone most weeks and what I loved about this wine was its technical correctness and a purity. The comparisons to the Northern Rhone are easy to draw, but this so eclipses many. Wonderful wine.
94pts
Paringa Estate Shiraz 2005 ( screwcap )- Simple, down the line, pungent berry fruit with a a touch of earthiness. The palate delivers the aromatics and lacks a little energy- completes with what I deem as the problem with some screw capped wines, where the tannin evolution seems to be out of kilter with fruit development delivering an overall dullness.
88pts
"Barolo is Barolo, you can't describe it, just as you can't describe Picasso"
I can't afford top burgs in restaurants, more's the pity.
