The Auswine Forum

A piece in the LA Times on decanting has such diverse comments as

"Almost every wine in the world does benefit from aeration The only exceptions are wines we rarely drink -- older, expensive Burgundies that could collapse with too much air" from Karen MacNeil, faculty chair of the wine department at the Culinary Institute of America's Greystone campus.

Susan Rodriguez, a research fellow at Cal State Fresno, recently did a blind tasting experiment and discovered that her panel could not tell the difference between a wine that had been decanted for two hours and the same wine right out of the bottle.

"The people who set it up were flabbergasted," Rodriguez says. "They were sure they could taste a difference."

Rodriguez designed and operates a Sensory Laboratory at the Viticulture and Enology Research Center at California State University, Fresno.

Mike

One swallow does not make a summer, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of scientific enquiry. To quote an oft used phrase, " interesting result but more research in needed. "

Interesting.

I find I often enjoy some wines quite a ways into them, especially with some air time, I'd be interested to hear their explanation for this. More study required, I'm happy to offer myself for this experiment as a taster.

I don't know the make up of the panel of tasters in this instance, but I think these results tend to occur for two reasons: Firstly, because the tasters are not attuned to wine tasting, and do not have very discriminatory palates. And secondly, I think people tend to be very cautious in blind tasting experiments, as they don't want to look like they got it "wrong" - so they tend not to stick their neck out on preferences.

Similarly surprising results have been indicated in other panel-tasting experiments. One example: if you give a panel of wine tasters (a) a red wine and (b) a white wine with red food colouring in it, they tend to describe both in much the same way you would expect for a red wine, i.e. dark berry fruits etc. The power of suggeston! However, I think if keen wine lovers with experienced palates were on the panel the confusion would be less. Funnily enough, a friend of mine played this very trick on me once. I correctly guessed the real red wine as a young Aussie shiraz, but the red-dyed white wine served at room temp had me stumped. I ruled out every red grape variety I could think of, and couldn't make a guess - turns out it was sauv blanc - as soon as I was told, it seemed kinda obvious! Which was rather a long bit of thread-drift, but thought it might be mildly interesting.

This is a no brainer, decanting is one wine ritual that definitely makes a huge difference to many many wines

Thats my experience

Corect Temperature is another

and it obviously makes a difference for the older ones, which do have more of a tendency to fall apart. so perhaps it needed to be tested with a range of older age wines as well as the youngies??

Bick wrote:I don't know the make up of the panel of tasters in this instance, but I think these results tend to occur for two reasons: Firstly, because the tasters are not attuned to wine tasting, and do not have very discriminatory palates. And secondly, I think people tend to be very cautious in blind tasting experiments, as they don't want to look like they got it "wrong" - so they tend not to stick their neck out on preferences.

Similarly surprising results have been indicated in other panel-tasting experiments. One example: if you give a panel of wine tasters (a) a red wine and (b) a white wine with red food colouring in it, they tend to describe both in much the same way you would expect for a red wine, i.e. dark berry fruits etc. The power of suggeston! However, I think if keen wine lovers with experienced palates were on the panel the confusion would be less. Funnily enough, a friend of mine played this very trick on me once. I correctly guessed the real red wine as a young Aussie shiraz, but the red-dyed white wine served at room temp had me stumped. I ruled out every red grape variety I could think of, and couldn't make a guess - turns out it was sauv blanc - as soon as I was told, it seemed kinda obvious! Which was rather a long bit of thread-drift, but thought it might be mildly interesting.

The color trick was done using 54 undergraduates from the Faculty of Oenology of the University of Bordeaux (Morrot G, Brochet F, Dubourdieu D, The Color of Odors, Brain and Language 79 (2001) 309-320.) In the study they were given a white wine W (AOC Bordeaux 1996) containing semillion and sauvignon blanc grapes and a red wine R (AOC Bordeaux 1996) containing cabernet sauvignon. They were also give a list of odor descriptors and ask to pick which descriptor was most intensely presented in each wine. They were also allowed to provide their own odor descriptors as well. One week later they were invited back and given the list they personally determined that described the wines (i.e. their individual list of chosen descriptors for the two wines) and asked to apply those descriptors to two glasses of wine, wine W from the previous week and wine WR which is wine W colored red with purified grape anthocyanins (previously determined not to provide any odor to wine W).

What happened? Well the number of terms used to describe wine W over the two tasting sessions was very similar. But in the second tasting for wine WR the subjects use many more odor descriptors of red wine than for white wine (about 3 to 1), even though the only difference to wine W was an odorless red color!

Mike

Craig(NZ) wrote:This is a no brainer, decanting is one wine ritual that definitely makes a huge difference to many many wines

Thats my experience

Corect Temperature is another

Studies or data, please. None of this dogma rubbish.

Mike

Hi all,

Continuing on with this theme, I am hoping some more experienced members might impart some knowledge.

I am in the market to purchase a decanter and am contemplating which design I go for. The orbital style decanter looks attractive as one is able to roll the decanter to agitate the surface area. Or perhaps this style is pure 'wank value' and something stable with a large surface area might be better. FYI I am drinking mostly Cab Sav and Shiraz, and mainly Aussie vintages of the last 10 years.

Any experiences with your own favorite decanter style would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Tim

I find that wines will change with aeration, wether in glass or decanter. Air oxidizes wine and the process starts the moment they come in contact. The variable will be the type of wine and its age.

Young wines without sediment probably don't need decanting if it is opened just prior to drinking. Swirling in the glass will provide sufficient aeration. However, big cellaring style young wines are likely to benefit from an hour or two in a decanter.

Any older bottle of wine that has sediment should be decanted. The only question is when to decant. If the wine is very old, and has plenty of sediment, then the decant should be just prior to consumption.

So put me in Karen MacNeil's corner.

Tim, it's difficult for me to answer your question. I have many decanters and I find there is a use for all shapes and styles. The bigger bowled decanters and carafes are good for the younger wines and ports that need a lot of aeration. The smaller ones are especially good for those older fragile wines that need decanting because of the sediment but require little if any aeration. Stylistically, my least favourite decanters are the narrow necked ones with the wide flat bowls though they should be good for ports because they allow more surface area to be exposed to the air.

By the way, a decanter is just a glass container to hold wine. You could use any water jug to much the same effect. My last purchase was a Spiegelau carafe-style decanter that is small (only 950 ml), delicate and feminine. It has no stopper but that isn't a problem in my household where a bottle is quite easily consumed over dinner.

Cheers...............Mahmoud

Beware of the "turn" style decanter. I have seen one roll off the table and onto the floor resulting in unwanted excessive aeration of the wine.

Myself, I have a couple of flat based ones. The only issue is that they are cumbersome to pour from and clean (thus making them a special occasion thing really). I can see the definite attraction in a carafe style decanter for every-day use.

Cheers,

Monghead.

Personally I think decanters work and most of my red wine goes into one. Old wines for removing sediment and new ones for a bit of air.

I have a flat style one and it gets used nearly every day. You do get the hang of pouring from them. I can even pour back into a bottle without a funnel (and without spilling any). The easy way to clean is to fill it with hot water, add a tea spoon of dishwashing powder and let it sit for a couple of hours. Then rinse well and drain it dry.

KMP wrote:Susan Rodriguez, a research fellow at Cal State Fresno, recently did a blind tasting experiment and discovered that her panel could not tell the difference between a wine that had been decanted for two hours and the same wine right out of the bottle.

Same bottle? Two different bottles? Rarely if you open two bottles of the same wine do they taste completely identical. Two bottles of 1996 Bin 389 tasted side-by-side last week were just very slightly different (different cellaring histories, so perhaps not entirely unexpected). Exactly how you set up the experiment above I can't quite understand. The assertion is that two bottles will taste identical upon opening, and that if one of them is opened/decanted two hours prior, there will be not discernable difference.
How can you test that?
The only way I can picture that is an authentic test is to open a bottle (say a magnum), decant half instantly into a 750ml and seal it, leave the other half in an open decanter for 2, 3 hours (whatever time), then do your taste comparison.
Is that what happened?
How else can you do the test in a valid manner?
cheers,
Graeme

You could syringe out through the cork and backfill with nitrogen, thereby rendering the remaining bottle contents in a similar state (without added oxygen). Or do the entire process in glovebox.

Vaguely speaking, I reckon I've had just about as much luck from the audoze method, especially with a few splashes poured out for initial tasting measure. Can't bring myself to consistently decant though - if anything a double decant preserves the presence of the bottle, which to my mind is a pretty important part of the experience. Alternatively you could well leave the empty as a sort of trophy but I rather like the wine in the bottle myself.

I'm absolutely convinced you can't just open wines and pop them on the table and expect them to be good. IMO even screwcapped wines taste better 10-20 minutes after they have been opened and I now routinely open screwcapped wines several minutes away from the time I expect to pour them. Medium youth wines under cork seem to be need a bit longer, while old wines are difficult - some evolve and improve hours after opening while other seem to fall apart.

redstuff wrote:You could syringe out through the cork and backfill with nitrogen, thereby rendering the remaining bottle contents in a similar state (without added oxygen). Or do the entire process in glovebox.

My toyota camry's glovebox is too small to get my hands and a bottle of wine into Brett!

Michael McNally wrote:

redstuff wrote:You could syringe out through the cork and backfill with nitrogen, thereby rendering the remaining bottle contents in a similar state (without added oxygen). Or do the entire process in glovebox.

My toyota camry's glovebox is too small to get my hands and a bottle of wine into Brett!

haha nice Michael.
glove box:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glovebox

I rarely decant(er-sic) wine, sometimes leave a third, half a bottle in the fridge for a day or three longer, to try it later. But if the wine is to be shared at one sitting that's a different matter. Though I'd probably drink half the bottle whilst monitoring it before presenting it to others , especially if I liked it

Cheers

daz

Daryl Douglas wrote:I rarely decant(er-sic) wine, sometimes leave a third, half a bottle in the fridge for a day or three longer, to try it later. But if the wine is to be shared at one sitting that's a different matter. Though I'd probably drink half the bottle whilst monitoring it before presenting it to others , especially if I liked it

Cheers

daz

Quite the reverse for me these days, Daz. If I open ANY red, it is decanted as a matter of course. I'll also regularly then bottle half of it (not surprisingly, in a screw capped half bottle) for re-evaluation a day or two later. Of course, if I have company (or a dinner party) it won't last that long.

Depending on the white, I will also give it some air. Generally chardonnay with three or more years' bottle age. Rieslings tend to come straight out of the bottle.

Cheers

Allan

GraemeG wrote:

KMP wrote:Susan Rodriguez, a research fellow at Cal State Fresno, recently did a blind tasting experiment and discovered that her panel could not tell the difference between a wine that had been decanted for two hours and the same wine right out of the bottle.

Same bottle? Two different bottles? Rarely if you open two bottles of the same wine do they taste completely identical. Two bottles of 1996 Bin 389 tasted side-by-side last week were just very slightly different (different cellaring histories, so perhaps not entirely unexpected). Exactly how you set up the experiment above I can't quite understand. The assertion is that two bottles will taste identical upon opening, and that if one of them is opened/decanted two hours prior, there will be not discernable difference.
How can you test that?
The only way I can picture that is an authentic test is to open a bottle (say a magnum), decant half instantly into a 750ml and seal it, leave the other half in an open decanter for 2, 3 hours (whatever time), then do your taste comparison.
Is that what happened?
How else can you do the test in a valid manner?
cheers,
Graeme

The fine details I am not sure about. In an email Dr Rodriguez said she was quite embarrassed that her comments were put into the article. She did say that the test was an ”A/NotA test - which is more often used at a place like Coca-Cola where sensory panelists are very familiar with their product.”

“You give them the 'A' product, ask them to familiarize themselves with it for 5 min and then TAKE AWAY the glass. Then you give 1/2 of panelists the same 'A' product and 1/2 another product ('Not A') and ask them if it is A or Not A.”

Dr Rodriguez who is a microbiologist specializing in wine yeast & bacteria also teaches the sensory courses at UC Davis and runs their Sensory Lab. She did say that she would like to continue testing decanting using something like a triangulation test but that she had dismissed her tasting panel for the summer and so she may look at it again when they reform. – (FYI: most colleges close for the summer over here and if faculty do not have money to support them during that time then they don’t work – I’m not sure if that is Dr Rodriguez’s situation but it is a reasonable guess.)

In terms of how you would test decanting versus pop and pour, the way that I have done it is to use the triangulation test. Basically you take three identical glasses and into one you pour one wine (say decanted) and into the other two you pour the other wine (say freshly opened) and ask the taster (who has not seen the wines poured) to identify which glass is different. (When I have done this I have tried to identify which glass(es) I prefer rather than simply try to identify a difference.) Triangulation is often used to assess how well someone (including potential wine judges) can identify differences between wines.

There is, of course, the possibility that bottle variation will affect the result but its difficult to do it any other way. For example pouring from one bottle into a decanter and then leaving the rest in the bottle is not going to work because pouring from the bottle will introduce air into the bottle. And you can’t use an inert gas like nitrogen to take up the “empty” space because the aromatic bloom occurs anyway. I guess it could be done in one bottle by withdrawing wine under pressure so that release of volatiles is reduced. But to do that properly would require the machinery capable of maintaining pressure and a GC-mass spec to make sure the volatile bloom was kept in check. That is not equipment I have lying around!

FYI: I tested 13 different wines to see if decanting makes a difference using the triangulation test and to my palate only 1 was improved by decanting (2-3 hours), 4 were better from the bottle and the rest showed no difference.

Mike