The Auswine Forum

2005 De Bortoli Gevrey Chambertin ‘Combe Du Bas’

Tasted this red village level Burgundy for the first time with high expectations. Reserved closed nose. Juicy, fruity varietal palate with fine tannins and grainy oak. Good acid structure but this wine is shutting down now so today I only scored it 92 points.
If you own it, leave it in the cellar for another 2-3 years to come around good.
AUD $80

So is this a French or an Australian wine?

Mahmoud.

Certainly priced like a French wine...

As it's named after a village in Burgundy, it has to be French. Not sure what DB strategy is here, but if the Europeans can come here, then I suppose we can do the same...

De Bortoli lease a section of vineyard in Gevrey Chambertin and made wine from it. 03 was the first vintage as I understand it. Interestingly there are a couple of other Australian companies doing similar. Killikanoon's Vouvray and Tar and Roses' Priorat come to mind.

cheers

Carl

I believe this 2005 was the last "Combe du Bas" (Down Under) made by De Bortoli in Burgundy.
I also tasted a super Tuscan style 2006 Aussie red from them called "Melba Lucia" ($27) that was pretty well structured and nice with food.

Rawshack wrote: "......but if the Europeans can come here, then I suppose we can do the same..."

Makes sense. I know of Chapoutier and Chandon. Anyone else?

Mahmoud.

One thing I find a bit strange about the De Bortoli project in Gevrey C. is that they are effectively just making someone else's wine. In this era of global business any winemaker (you don't even have to be a recognised winemaker) can make any wine, anywhere in the world. So if they wanted to, someone in Gevrey C could ring up a winery in the Yarra, purchase a tonne of the highest quality Chardonnay available, pay someone in Oz to press, ferment, and barrel the wine and then ship it back home to sell. But why bother?! And also (and this may be the point)do you really think that any winemaker from Gevrey C. would do such a thing?!?! But seriously, if you're only objective is to make money, then fine, it might be a smart thing to do - but if you're a high quality Yarra Valley winemaker (and I have much respect for what De Bortoli are achieving there) then shouldn't you stay home and focus on showing the world the quality of wine you can make back here? Turning up in another region on the other side of the planet, buying some vines that generations of people who you are totally unrelated to have tended carefully for centuries (or, even worse, just buying the grapes off them), and then announcing that you now also make GC just sounds a bit shallow to me - what do you think?

And incidentally, if you are interested in Burgundy, Pinot Noir, etc then I have just started up a global Pinot Noir news section on the website for Whisson Lake Vineyard in the Adelaide Hills where I work. check it out!

Tom Munro wrote:One thing I find a bit strange about the De Bortoli project in Gevrey C. is that they are effectively just making someone else's wine. In this era of global business any winemaker (you don't even have to be a recognised winemaker) can make any wine, anywhere in the world. So if they wanted to, someone in Gevrey C could ring up a winery in the Yarra, purchase a tonne of the highest quality Chardonnay available, pay someone in Oz to press, ferment, and barrel the wine and then ship it back home to sell. But why bother?! And also (and this may be the point)do you really think that any winemaker from Gevrey C. would do such a thing?!?! But seriously, if you're only objective is to make money, then fine, it might be a smart thing to do - but if you're a high quality Yarra Valley winemaker (and I have much respect for what De Bortoli are achieving there) then shouldn't you stay home and focus on showing the world the quality of wine you can make back here? Turning up in another region on the other side of the planet, buying some vines that generations of people who you are totally unrelated to have tended carefully for centuries (or, even worse, just buying the grapes off them), and then announcing that you now also make GC just sounds a bit shallow to me - what do you think?

And incidentally, if you are interested in Burgundy, Pinot Noir, etc then I have just started up a global Pinot Noir news section on the website for Whisson Lake Vineyard in the Adelaide Hills where I work. check it out!

I thought they went over to learn? Don't think De Bortoli is making much money from it.

cheers

Carl

So are they making the wines there with their own winemakers?
Or are they simply buying a whole winery business, and re-labelling the wines under their banner, and selling it here?

monghead wrote:So are they making the wines there with their own winemakers?
Or are they simply buying a whole winery business, and re-labelling the wines under their banner, and selling it here?

Definitely the former. I think they rented the vineyard for three years. Downie and Webber went over to do vintage each year. Not sure how much input occurred on the viticulture side. I think Downie goes over a few months prior to vintage and then calls Webber over for a month during vintage.

cheers

Carl

I certainly agree that any relevant winemaking experience is potentially a good learning experience. But how relevant is the making of Pinot Noir in Burgundy to the making of Pinot Noir in the Yarra (or anywhere else in Australia)? I argue that Pinot Noir in Burgundy really has nothing in common with Pinot Noir in the Yarra. The Pinot Noir vines and grapes in Burgundy (let alone the region's very particular climate) are so different to those in the Yarra that I believe the potential to learn is limited. The only thing you can learn to make in Burgundy, IS Burgundy. Winegrowers in Burgundy are not trying to grow Pinot Noir but to grow wine that is typical of their particular appellation and the only thing that could be shipped back to Oz is the concept/desire to make vineyard/appellation-specific wine (and I'm sure the De Bortoli team already have this). I don't think Burgundy is necessarily any better than wine from the Yarra - there are some very average and over priced wines produced there (as well as many treasures too, of course) - and I think it is high time for Australian winemakers and marketers to stop encouraging comparison of their own wines to French (or any other) models. Such comparison guarantees that Australian wine will only ever be placed second (or worse!) in the global league. "Imitation is the highest form of flattery".

Tom Munro wrote:I certainly agree that any relevant winemaking experience is potentially a good learning experience. But how relevant is the making of Pinot Noir in Burgundy to the making of Pinot Noir in the Yarra (or anywhere else in Australia)? I argue that Pinot Noir in Burgundy really has nothing in common with Pinot Noir in the Yarra. The Pinot Noir vines and grapes in Burgundy (let alone the region's very particular climate) are so different to those in the Yarra that I believe the potential to learn is limited. The only thing you can learn to make in Burgundy, IS Burgundy. Winegrowers in Burgundy are not trying to grow Pinot Noir but to grow wine that is typical of their particular appellation and the only thing that could be shipped back to Oz is the concept/desire to make vineyard/appellation-specific wine (and I'm sure the De Bortoli team already have this). I don't think Burgundy is necessarily any better than wine from the Yarra - there are some very average and over priced wines produced there (as well as many treasures too, of course) - and I think it is high time for Australian winemakers and marketers to stop encouraging comparison of their own wines to French (or any other) models. Such comparison guarantees that Australian wine will only ever be placed second (or worse!) in the global league. "Imitation is the highest form of flattery".

Well Tom,

You obviously have a better idea of how useful experience in Burgundy is to making wine in the Yarra than Downie and Webber. Let's look at the logic:

a) De Bortoli's winemakers think experience in Burgundy assists them in making better wine.

yet you argue

b) "they have nothing in common"

Curiously you also mention

c) You have "much respect" for what De Bortoli is doing in the Yarra

I don't suppose you have done a few vintages over there like Downie and Webber have before you dismissed making wine in Burgundy as irrelevant?

As a consumer, I too have "much respect" with how Webber and Downie go about making wine in the Yarra (and Downie in the Mornington as well). Yet I say if they think that going to France helps helps them make better wine in Australia, then I say good on them. Personally I think their wines from Victoria have improved over the last 6 years and I shall continue to buy their wines.

cheers

Carl

Hi Carl!
Thanks for replying. What I was trying to elicit here was not a defense of the De Bortoli winemakers - who do not need defending and who I still insist I have much respect for - but a debate on what makes wine worthwhile and important as a drink that reflects a particular place/appellation. And I do base my comments on my own experience of working in Burgundy. The last time I worked over there (for the 2005 vintage) what I saw was a totally transparent and simplistic winemaking process where traditional cellar practice was followed calmly and carefully. Their were no secrets to steal, no cunning tricks that made winemakers in Burgundy more successful than in other Pinot-growing regions, and no attempt to hide what they knew. In fact, where I spent the majority of my time, there was not even a "winemaker" present! The staff who had worked there for years followed a work routine that didn't need supervision - they just did what they had done the year before. I thought what they were doing was superb - but the work also quite boreing as everyone was reduced to un-thinking manual labour. And I know that the most succesful quality winemakers in Australia follow exactly the same basic process here - they just get a different result because of where their vines are growing. You question my logic, but I question the logic of going such a long way to see what you already know. You'd be better off saving $2000, buy a copy of Richard Olney's superbly written book on Romanee Conti and go to sleep knowing that you've saved a heap of cash and not missed out on any secret Burgundy knowledge. Wine is not special because of who it is made by but because of where the vines are grown. That is the point that I was really hoping someone would respond to! And the cult of the magician winemaker who can turn pigshit into cream puffs goes along way to obscuring this fact that I personally feel to be important!
I apologise if you thought that I was just trying to have a dig at the De Bortoli winemakers in my original posting, that's my fault for not expressing myself clearly enough, perhaps. I look forward to hearing your response to this.

That is an experienced position to put your view forth from. I can't comment on what Webber and Downie learnt over there. It may be they didn't learn anything although they seem to go back so they find some value.

On the point of terroir. I think the winemaker has the most input on grapes. Then the weather of the vintage and then the place. I think of winemaking as part of terroir as it is a tradition. I prefer winemakers to experiment as nothing is perfect. Using techniques that they either learn from France or from a book is all the same to me. Best not be blinkered and simply follow what has been done before in your region.

cheers

Carl