Cooked wine
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lantana
Re: Cooked wine
Sean wrote:His dog (Gus) used to go down to the cellar with him. If Gus was sniffing at a bottle for long, that would be the one taken upstairs and opened that night.
Sean,
You've just given me a great idea. I'm going to buy a Beagle & train it to sniff out TCA affected corks, still in the bottle ! I might even start a business, "Cork Sniffer Dogs" ! Our motto will be, "Every wine geeks best friend". Gotta go now, have to go & patent it, before someone pinches the idea.
lantana
Sean,
Sounds like a case of corked wine to me rather than cooked or oxidised.
A trace of TCA taint in wine will leave it flat with no aroma or flavour and a short finish but without the obvious wet hessian/cardboard of heavier taint.
Oxidised wine stinks. It is rank. And cooked wine will also reveal oxidised off type features to varying degrees depending on the amount and duration of heat exposure. Neither will leave the wine as flat as you describe.
Sounds like a case of corked wine to me rather than cooked or oxidised.
A trace of TCA taint in wine will leave it flat with no aroma or flavour and a short finish but without the obvious wet hessian/cardboard of heavier taint.
Oxidised wine stinks. It is rank. And cooked wine will also reveal oxidised off type features to varying degrees depending on the amount and duration of heat exposure. Neither will leave the wine as flat as you describe.
Davo wrote:Sean,
Sounds like a case of corked wine to me rather than cooked or oxidised.
A trace of TCA taint in wine will leave it flat with no aroma or flavour and a short finish but without the obvious wet hessian/cardboard of heavier taint.
Oxidised wine stinks. It is rank. And cooked wine will also reveal oxidised off type features to varying degrees depending on the amount and duration of heat exposure. Neither will leave the wine as flat as you describe.
Hi Sean,
I agree totally with Davo, usually when the wine is cooked it looses all of its bright flavours and quite literally smells and expecially tastes like it has been thrown in with a bag of over ripe plums and prunes and cooked until it is a sugarless jam. Definately tasts like mild taint to me. A good example of an oxidised wine is the smell you get when you have to throw all the almost empty bottles into the recycling bin after a big party. OOOOOoooohh that's bad!!!
best,
simm.
"I ain't drunk! I' still drinkin' !!"
"I ain't drunk! I' still drinkin' !!"
Sean,
What you describe above is readily recognisable as a corked wine descriptor. However when the level of taint is lower all you have is muted flavour and aroma but no typical aroma or flavour of taint either. This is what you have described in your original post. Descriptor is flat nose, flat palate and short finish.
No disrespect meant to liqour outlet managers, but most I have met have trouble telling the difference between white and red let alone have any really useful knowledge in regard to wine. It is always a pleasure to meet someone in a store who actually does know what they are talking about.
It is possible, though unlikely all 12 had TCA. It has been known to happen especially when the winery itself is tainted rather than the corks.
Having been "cooked" is more likely though I would expect more off aromas and flavours than just flat wine.
Sean wrote:
In my experience, TCA affected wine usually has that musty or mouldy aroma (often described as wet cardboard), some volatility and yes lack of flavour. Low level TCA usually has some off aromas or off flavours. But this was not my experience this time.
What you describe above is readily recognisable as a corked wine descriptor. However when the level of taint is lower all you have is muted flavour and aroma but no typical aroma or flavour of taint either. This is what you have described in your original post. Descriptor is flat nose, flat palate and short finish.
Sean wrote:In the first case, the store Manager agreed with me that the wine was cooked.
No disrespect meant to liqour outlet managers, but most I have met have trouble telling the difference between white and red let alone have any really useful knowledge in regard to wine. It is always a pleasure to meet someone in a store who actually does know what they are talking about.
Sean wrote:In the second case, there was a dozen mixed reds in the box and every single one was a goner. Is it possible all 12 had TCA?
It is possible, though unlikely all 12 had TCA. It has been known to happen especially when the winery itself is tainted rather than the corks.
Having been "cooked" is more likely though I would expect more off aromas and flavours than just flat wine.
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Stan
I think the term you are looking for is maderized, which in essence, is cooked, or over heated, just like madeira. maderized wines will often have a dull nose and are flat on the palate. It may be low level Tca, because everyone is different as to how much TCA they can detect. If your really curious, next time have a friend whom you know is very sensitive to TCA try it. If they can't detect it then chances are it has been maderized.
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Daviud Cross
It does sound what you have come across is a low level cork taint. To my mind this is the most insidiouse type of cork taint where the wine smells and tastes flat for no apparent reason.
As a small wine producer it is of great concern that our wine my suffer similarly and a consumer will blame the wine and not the cork. Of course this is always possible with high levels of TCA but I would hope that an educated consumer would see the problem for what it really is.
As a small wine producer it is of great concern that our wine my suffer similarly and a consumer will blame the wine and not the cork. Of course this is always possible with high levels of TCA but I would hope that an educated consumer would see the problem for what it really is.
I am just guessing about all this, but the chance that I got the only box of TCA affected wine must be one in a million.
Actually assuming its totally random and not caused by a batch of dud corks or TCA in the winery, the chances of getting a full case where every bottle is suffering from TCA is 14,551,696,000,000 give or take a few.
(Thats 12.5 to the power of 12.) Now thats a sh*t load of wine. 
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SA_S :-)
Leaking corks
I recently had a conversation with a winemaker from the Coonawarra who explained to me that when the wine is shipped to the UK the liquid expands in the heat and due to the presure some liquid may 'leak' out of the bottle, the bottle then cools down and gets re-sealed - result = a wine that has leaked and has residue, but is absolutely fine and is in good condition.
I tested this theory with him using two bottles of the same wine (his) that were in the store I was visiting, the owner was very accomodating and allowed the tasting with interest, the two wines were both ok and on a blind tasting no difference was found.
I tested this theory with him using two bottles of the same wine (his) that were in the store I was visiting, the owner was very accomodating and allowed the tasting with interest, the two wines were both ok and on a blind tasting no difference was found.
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Daryl Douglas
- Posts: 1361
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:23 pm
- Location: Nth Qld
TORB wrote:I am just guessing about all this, but the chance that I got the only box of TCA affected wine must be one in a million.
Actually assuming its totally random and not caused by a batch of dud corks or TCA in the winery, the chances of getting a full case where every bottle is suffering from TCA is 14,551,696,000,000 give or take a few.
Hey Ric, those figures verge on the theory of relativity
. I 
wonder if there have yet been so many bottles of wine produced 
or whether that's your consumption benchmark 
.
A serious point has been raised here though; in summer particularly, virtually all of Australia is likely to experience periods of very hot weather and the transport/storage of wine from winery to consumer must be of concern to all who partake of the fermented grape.
Stewed wine is always a concern.
I wonder too whether higher temperatures promote the development of TCA taint. 
I'm sure the scholar in you can expand on that question .
Cheers
daz
Hi Daz,
To the best of my knowledge TCA and temperature are mutually exclusive and no impact on each other. Cooked wine can be a problem. Here is an article I wrote in 2002.
They donÂ’t call it the silly season for nothing
And this one actually lasts for the best part of six months, so I am not referring to Christmas although thatÂ’s getting pretty close.
In fact I am referring to the shipping of wine in very hot summer weather. A couple of years ago I remember driving down the Hume Hwy about 90 minutes out of Sydney and passing an open truck that was stacked about 15 boxes high with Mount Mary, Bin 707, John Riddoch, Eileen Hardy, and almost every other recognised exclusive band name you cared to mention. These boxes had no protection from the heat and it was about 36 degrees in the shade. A few hours of baking sun and you have instant mulled wine that is forever stuffed.
On a number of occasions when I have been in the Barossa and McLaren Vale uninsulated trucks have been observed picking up wine from very reputable wineries on days when the temperature was about 40 degrees.
Another factor to be concerned about is the storage in bottle shops. Some shops have little more than “tin sheds†out the back where wine is stored for extended periods. Some shops (which are not even air conditioned) store wine in full sun where the boxes get the baking rays in the late afternoon. Some stores take deliveries in the morning and the cases of wine are off loaded and left in the baking sun for hours. I also fondly remember going “out the back†of one bottle shop to see their best bottles that were not on the shelf. They were lovingly stored behind the cool room with the reverse side of a refrigeration fan blowing hot air onto them.
If you are purchasing c-through or inexpensive reds for immediate consumption the problem of the wine being heat damaged is not critical. Big red wines are pretty forgiving and can take a lot of rough treatment that is less than ideal, however if you are purchasing good quality wine or wine that you wish to cellar, then buying wine that has been heat affected will not make you pleased when you open it a few years down the track.
So what can you do about it? The first thing is to plan. Try to buy as much of your good quality red wines in winter which is not difficult to achieve. Most of the new red releases occur in the cooler months and most non red bigots drink a reasonable percentage of c-through over summer so their red consumption is lower anyway.
If you are going to buy good quality wines during the hot summer months insist that the supplier does not ship the wine until the temperature is going to be a bit cooler for a few days. Most reputable suppliers wonÂ’t mind. If you are going on winery visits and donÂ’t intend drinking the wine in the short term, ask the winery to hold the wine and ship it in the cooler months. On a number of occasions I have had wine held for three or four months waiting for things to cool down.
ItÂ’s also critical to only purchase your wines from reputable stores where you know the wine has been properly looked after before you get it. So avoid places that look they donÂ’t know how to store wine because if they look like they donÂ’t know what they are doing then the chances of getting heat damaged wine is much higher.
End of story.
However the big reds can be remarkably resilient. Some years ago a case of 91 St Henri got lost from Melbourne to Mittagong for a six weeks and went via SA and spent weeks being baked. The wine eventually arrived and 4 bottles were leaking and partially popped corks. The insurance coughed up and they didn't want the wine. I drank the worst affected bottles immediately and they were fine. The balance have been in the cellar since and I have tried a few more recently and they all are fine with no detectable damage.
So, I am honestly not sure how much heat they can take but think it can be a fair amount.
BTW, ever wonder there was no 95 Lawson? It was released very briefly and then they found out it had been cooked in storage in the Barossa and the whole lot was quietly withdrawn.
To the best of my knowledge TCA and temperature are mutually exclusive and no impact on each other. Cooked wine can be a problem. Here is an article I wrote in 2002.
They donÂ’t call it the silly season for nothing
And this one actually lasts for the best part of six months, so I am not referring to Christmas although thatÂ’s getting pretty close.
In fact I am referring to the shipping of wine in very hot summer weather. A couple of years ago I remember driving down the Hume Hwy about 90 minutes out of Sydney and passing an open truck that was stacked about 15 boxes high with Mount Mary, Bin 707, John Riddoch, Eileen Hardy, and almost every other recognised exclusive band name you cared to mention. These boxes had no protection from the heat and it was about 36 degrees in the shade. A few hours of baking sun and you have instant mulled wine that is forever stuffed.
On a number of occasions when I have been in the Barossa and McLaren Vale uninsulated trucks have been observed picking up wine from very reputable wineries on days when the temperature was about 40 degrees.
Another factor to be concerned about is the storage in bottle shops. Some shops have little more than “tin sheds†out the back where wine is stored for extended periods. Some shops (which are not even air conditioned) store wine in full sun where the boxes get the baking rays in the late afternoon. Some stores take deliveries in the morning and the cases of wine are off loaded and left in the baking sun for hours. I also fondly remember going “out the back†of one bottle shop to see their best bottles that were not on the shelf. They were lovingly stored behind the cool room with the reverse side of a refrigeration fan blowing hot air onto them.
If you are purchasing c-through or inexpensive reds for immediate consumption the problem of the wine being heat damaged is not critical. Big red wines are pretty forgiving and can take a lot of rough treatment that is less than ideal, however if you are purchasing good quality wine or wine that you wish to cellar, then buying wine that has been heat affected will not make you pleased when you open it a few years down the track.
So what can you do about it? The first thing is to plan. Try to buy as much of your good quality red wines in winter which is not difficult to achieve. Most of the new red releases occur in the cooler months and most non red bigots drink a reasonable percentage of c-through over summer so their red consumption is lower anyway.
If you are going to buy good quality wines during the hot summer months insist that the supplier does not ship the wine until the temperature is going to be a bit cooler for a few days. Most reputable suppliers wonÂ’t mind. If you are going on winery visits and donÂ’t intend drinking the wine in the short term, ask the winery to hold the wine and ship it in the cooler months. On a number of occasions I have had wine held for three or four months waiting for things to cool down.
ItÂ’s also critical to only purchase your wines from reputable stores where you know the wine has been properly looked after before you get it. So avoid places that look they donÂ’t know how to store wine because if they look like they donÂ’t know what they are doing then the chances of getting heat damaged wine is much higher.
End of story.
However the big reds can be remarkably resilient. Some years ago a case of 91 St Henri got lost from Melbourne to Mittagong for a six weeks and went via SA and spent weeks being baked. The wine eventually arrived and 4 bottles were leaking and partially popped corks. The insurance coughed up and they didn't want the wine. I drank the worst affected bottles immediately and they were fine. The balance have been in the cellar since and I have tried a few more recently and they all are fine with no detectable damage.
So, I am honestly not sure how much heat they can take but think it can be a fair amount.
BTW, ever wonder there was no 95 Lawson? It was released very briefly and then they found out it had been cooked in storage in the Barossa and the whole lot was quietly withdrawn.
cooked, corked? Maybe not!
Hi Sean,
Just thought you might like to have a look at Adair's latest dinner entry. Down the list there's a note describing a similar situation with a bottle of 1979 Chateau Cheval Blanc (Rouge) which might interest you.
Regards,
Just thought you might like to have a look at Adair's latest dinner entry. Down the list there's a note describing a similar situation with a bottle of 1979 Chateau Cheval Blanc (Rouge) which might interest you.
Regards,
simm.
"I ain't drunk! I' still drinkin' !!"
"I ain't drunk! I' still drinkin' !!"
I've had real problems with Langtons wine deliveries interstate recently too. A magnum took over a week in transit in 30-40 degree weather, and after being checked was promptly returned and refunded.
McPhees Transport don't use refrigerated trucks, and the packing isn't really good enough to shield that kind of abuse. Langtons Melbourne said they have had enough complaints to look at alternatives like Australia Post.
It's a big enough risk to buy something at auction in the first place, without having the additional bonus of such incompetent handling in transport. Together with the rise in the buyer's premium, these are good enough reasons not to renew my membership. Luckily Oddbins are local and transport is not an issue for me.
Ian
McPhees Transport don't use refrigerated trucks, and the packing isn't really good enough to shield that kind of abuse. Langtons Melbourne said they have had enough complaints to look at alternatives like Australia Post.
It's a big enough risk to buy something at auction in the first place, without having the additional bonus of such incompetent handling in transport. Together with the rise in the buyer's premium, these are good enough reasons not to renew my membership. Luckily Oddbins are local and transport is not an issue for me.
Ian