The Auswine Forum

Last summer I decided it was time again to try and develop a deeper understanding of German and Austrian rieslings. Last time around they came in blue and black bottles. Anyhow when I look back over my TNs for the past year, I see I have tried far more than I had drunk in the preceding 10 years. I have also taken to reading a bit more on them. Willi Schaefer was one name that keeps popping up as something of a "cult" wine well worth tracking down.

So the Willi Schaefer Graacher Domprobut Riesling Kabinett 2007 is the first of Willi's wines to come my way. Essentially an entry point example, I am starting to see why people get so passionate over the German rieslings. By all counts 2007 is a very good year. First up, the colour is a very pale yellow thou with more depth of colour than a comparable high end Aus example. On the nose I got honeysuckle and limes, definitely sweet rich tones. At this point it is worth noting we paired the wine with a couple of soft French cheeses at the beginning of the evening, one of which was a blue. As a pairing this was a superb match. On tasting the wine, the phrase that came to mind was one of a lovely lightness of being wrapped around a great line and length. A more elegant off dry style ofwine than many of the Australian examples I have been enjoying over summer, I found green apples, limes (again) and tropical fruit. The latter reminding me of the banana passionfruit my grandmother used to grow. It is fair to say it was a huge success with everyone at dinner when paired with the cheese.

One question for the more knowledgeable. I keep reading about goldcaps but so far after reading half a dozen sites, I can't really find a decent explanation of what these are in the context of german wines.

Hi Rooman. I don't think Gold Cap is an offical thing but in most cases its a reserve wine. I have tied a few examples and they are a step up but often very expensive.
Cheers, Curt

Curt wrote:Hi Rooman. I don't think Gold Cap is an offical thing but in most cases its a reserve wine. I have tied a few examples and they are a step up but often very expensive.
Cheers, Curt

I suppose that would explain why I can't find anything in any of the German wine glossaries on the web.

thanks
Mark

Hi Rooman - thanks for the note - I like to try German riesling now and then too - limes are always my cue to guess riesling if I'm tasting blind, so not surprised that stood out.

The official rules for german wine "ranking": kabinett, spatlese, auslese, beerenauslese etc are based on must weight - the sugar content of the grape juice. So that side of it is highly regulated. However, my understanding is, if a vineyard wants to make a better "reserve" wine with the same must weight as another wine they produce they need to find another way to indicate the quality - so the gold cap has become a convention for many wineries. Gold cap auslese from Dr Loosen, say, should just be considered the "reserve" wine compared to regular auslese from the same producer. (If that's wrong someone will let me and you know I'm sure!). I don't think you tend to get gold cap wines below auslese must weight.

Bick,
I have made a really concerted effort to expand my understanding of German rieslings over the past 12 months. At times I have struggled a little given that the Australian style to which my palate has become attuned is so much drier. This wine however had just the right level of residual sugar for me to enjoy it without finding it overly "sweet". It is a similar problem I have had with some NZ rieslings. I also found there was a wonderful layer of underlying complexity that made it really enjoyable especially when paired with smelly cheeses. Anyhow I have put down another 5 left to see where it goes over the years ahead.
Mark
PS I hear there is a new decent restaurant opened over on Sale St. Is it any good?

[/quote]One question for the more knowledgeable. I keep reading about goldcaps but so far after reading half a dozen sites, I can't really find a decent explanation of what these are in the context of german wines.[/quote]

In great years, some German producers will distinguish between their regular and reserve bottlings of a wine. They can have more than one goldkapsel (GK) wine in great years and they can distinguish between their better wines (goldkapsel) and their very best wines...long goldcaps or lang goldkapsel (LGK). They might have multiple versions of their GK and LGK wines based on what vat (fuder) the wine comes from.

GK and LGK wine designations are about the only thing not tightly controlled by German wine laws. (Go figure.) As a result, you'll see gold capsules that mean nothing, gold capsules that are a reserve considered to be better by the producer (generally sweeter or more intense) or small lot auction wines that go for many times more than other bottlings from the the same vineyard.

When the capsule revolution took off in the 1983 vintage (before most people took note of fuder numbers...those long numbers preceded by "AP" on the label of better quality German wines) you had to measure the length of the gold cap to see if it was GK or the superior LGK. It's more regularized now, but still subject to the whims of individual producers.

The great thing about German wines is that if you can find the same fuder number on another bottle, it comes from the same vat as the first wine. You are much more likely to get the same taste experience again when you can match up the fuder number in a German bottling. No other country requires bottling by vat number so there is a greater possibility of variance between bottles of the same wine.

The 2007 W. Schaefer Graacher Domprobst Kabinett comes in at least two different fuders here in the US, 7 and 16. I haven't tried either, but the 16 is imported to the US by Terry Theise, a well respected importer and German wine expert, and he surely selected the best of the two for his bottling. Both wines get good reviews.

I haven't yet seen any GK or LGK Kabinett wines from Schaefer. A very few producers have produced goldcaps for Kabinett wines...Prinz Hallgartener Jungfer Riesling Kabinett Goldkapsel is an example of an exception and it was an auction wine. Mostly you see the GK or LGK designation with Spatlese or sweeter wines.

So far, knock on wood, the Germans haven't fallen in the trap of putting all their best wine into the reserve wines at the expense of their regular bottlings. They typically only designate reserve wines in great years when there is plenty of excellent wine for multiple bottlings.

It used to be that there was a marginal price difference between regular, GK and LGK bottlings because the difference in quality was marginal to modestly better, but marketing and demand have blown that all to hell. I rarely purchase reserve wines unless it is specifically identified as being substantially better than the regular bottling.

I hope this helps some.

pizzler wrote: you'll see gold capsules that mean nothing, gold capsules that are a reserve considered to be better by the producer (generally sweeter or more intense) or small lot auction wines that go for many times more than other bottlings from the the same vineyard.

...Prinz Hallgartener Jungfer Riesling Kabinett Goldkapsel is an example of an exception and it was an auction wine.

Pizzler, I often see references to 'auction wines' in German riesling. What exactly does this mean? I know there is an annual auction in Trier, but what actually happens here? Who bids and who makes the wines? Who bottles and who markets the wines? Are they generally available, and if not, where can you source them? Who owns the vineyards where the grapes come from?

Is it anything like the Hospices des Beaune auction in Burgundy? AFAIK this is an auction of wine made by certain Domaines on behalf of a charity that has significant vineyard holdings in both the Cote de Nuits and the Cote de Beaune. Is the Trier auction similar?

Check it out on Wikipedia, or just google VDP Auction. Neville from Eurocentric who posts on the various Aus wine forums knows quite a lot about it, he has attended the Trier auction.

[/quote]

Pizzler, I often see references to 'auction wines' in German riesling. What exactly does this mean? I know there is an annual auction in Trier, but what actually happens here? Who bids and who makes the wines? Who bottles and who markets the wines? Are they generally available, and if not, where can you source them? Who owns the vineyards where the grapes come from?

Is it anything like the Hospices des Beaune auction in Burgundy? AFAIK this is an auction of wine made by certain Domaines on behalf of a charity that has significant vineyard holdings in both the Cote de Nuits and the Cote de Beaune. Is the Trier auction similar?[/quote]

There are a bunch of auctions in Germany with Trier being the most famous. These auctions serve multiple purposes...to benefit charities and to establish a pecking order for the best wines of the vintage, which helps establish the wholesale price point for individual wines. Because so much is riding on the auction outcome, growers only present their very best wines, sometimes constituting a few bottles which could be from a single row or less.

Think of it as a Paris fashion show, where the clothing lines presented are exotic and designed to hype the brand, but aren't what you'd buy off the rack later in the year from the same designer. It's all about marketing and helping a good cause.

You will pay a distinct premium for auction wines these days, which in my view is hard to justify in almost all cases. I'd rather sample what I'm going to buy and avoid most of the hype. I'm going to a California Barrel Tasting this weekend in Washington DC (also a charity event) where we will be able to sample hundreds of California wines (mostly Cabernet Sauvignon's) that have either just been bottled or are close to final blending. It's a tough assignment, but someone has to do it

pizzler, many thanks for sharing the knowledge. I suspect you too enjoy the odd German riesling.
Mark

Yes, thanks Pizzler. I've enjoyed reading your posts on German riesling.

BTW, who is the foremost specialist reviewer of German riesling? Kolm? Schildknecht? Gilman?

And what books would anyone recommend for providing a thorough profile of German wine regions and producers, and explanation of German wine laws, pradikat etc. I am particularly interested in more info on various producers' portfolios of wines, including all fuder numbers they produce each year.

Minotaur wrote:
BTW, who is the foremost specialist reviewer of German riesling? Kolm? Schildknecht? Gilman?

And what books would anyone recommend for providing a thorough profile of German wine regions and producers, and explanation of German wine laws, pradikat etc. I am particularly interested in more info on various producers' portfolios of wines, including all fuder numbers they produce each year.

I'm a big fan of David Schildknecht. I had the great fortune of knowing him when he used to work retail in the Washington, DC area at a time when I really knew my German wines. David's knowledge is encyclopedic...and more importantly, I've never had a bad (or even mediocre) bottle of anything he recommended. I haven't talked to him in years since he started writing for Tanzer and now Parker, but I still read his reviews whenever I can.

I don't know enough about the other two reviewers to offer an opinion.

There are a lot of books that will guide you through the beginning levels of German wine. I have several that I got years ago, but never found them to be particularly informative. I've not heard of one that reports on all the fuders offered by producers, though knowing the Germans there is probably an accounting somewhere.

I used to be able to rely on the winners of certain wine competitions in Germany, but that practice has fallen by the wayside with the introduction of the auction system. I don't like what the auction system has done to German wine prices, but it seems to be a pretty fair way to figure out who's produced the best wine in any particular vintage.

pizzler wrote:When the capsule revolution took off in the 1983 vintage (before most people took note of fuder numbers...those long numbers preceded by "AP" on the label of better quality German wines) you had to measure the length of the gold cap to see if it was GK or the superior LGK. It's more regularized now, but still subject to the whims of individual producers.

The great thing about German wines is that if you can find the same fuder number on another bottle, it comes from the same vat as the first wine. You are much more likely to get the same taste experience again when you can match up the fuder number in a German bottling. No other country requires bottling by vat number so there is a greater possibility of variance between bottles of the same wine.

This is rather misleading. The AP number is an AP number. Doubtless is some cases it does represent the entire contents of a singe fuder, and no other. But that is not a requirement. Nor is it a requirement that German wines are bottles vat-by-vat, or by vat number. Loosen's 'Dr L' riesling has an AP number - and only one for a given vintage - and you can be pretty sure that it's not the product of a single vat.

Perhaps it's better to say the AP number represents a singe 'cuvee'. That might be thousands of bottles (like Dr L), a single vat only, or a tiny run of 400 half-bottles of some exotic TBA. It is handy way to make sure you are buying the same wine you bought before, particularly if a producer has made three different ausleses from the same vineyard in the same year, but that's all it means.
cheers,
Graeme

If AP numbers represent a particular 'cuvee', does it follow that a given AP number is the same blend of vineyards (or single vineyard) each year? Are the same AP numbers produced year in year out? Eg. does Schaefer always make a #5 and a #17 Spatlese from Graacher Domprobst? Are they always from the same vines or does one simply represent a blend of the better barrels, while the other is the 'normal' cuvee?

This is the reason why I would like to read a book / review of given producers' entire portfolio - to understand what cuvees they produce each year, and what the relative price/quality propositions are. If someone makes 3 auslesen from the same vineyard in a certain vintage, it would be good to know which AP number is usually the better wine (if any).

Minotaur is right - the unique AP no is sort of a cuvee designation - but not necessarily a single vat designation. Note that in some cases JJ Prum have released the same wine at different times, and it gets a different AP no. The AP no is assigned as wines are submitted/adjudicated and allowed for release, I odnt have the detail of the whole process.

And I hope I'm allowed to do this...

This is worth a read - wont answer all your questions but there are some very knowledgeable German fans on this forum,

http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15133&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=1971+wine+laws

GraemeG wrote:Perhaps it's better to say the AP number represents a singe 'cuvee'. That might be thousands of bottles (like Dr L), a single vat only, or a tiny run of 400 half-bottles of some exotic TBA. It is handy way to make sure you are buying the same wine you bought before, particularly if a producer has made three different ausleses from the same vineyard in the same year, but that's all it means.
cheers,
Graeme

I agree. Good catch. Poor use of terminology on my part.

I've noticed that a few producers use the same fuder numbers year after year. For example, the Fritz Haag Brauneberger Juffer-Sonnenuhr Riesling Auslese Goldkapsel #9 is their best Auslese other than auction wines. But there is no consistency.

Minotaur wrote:If AP numbers represent a particular 'cuvee', does it follow that a given AP number is the same blend of vineyards (or single vineyard) each year? Are the same AP numbers produced year in year out? Eg. does Schaefer always make a #5 and a #17 Spatlese from Graacher Domprobst? Are they always from the same vines or does one simply represent a blend of the better barrels, while the other is the 'normal' cuvee?

This is the reason why I would like to read a book / review of given producers' entire portfolio - to understand what cuvees they produce each year, and what the relative price/quality propositions are. If someone makes 3 auslesen from the same vineyard in a certain vintage, it would be good to know which AP number is usually the better wine (if any).

Sorry I've come to this thread late.

Willi doesn't always stick to the same fuders for the same wines. They are mostly 1959 and 1964 1000-litre German oak vats that don't impart flavour but more texture and help make the wines so approachable young. Certain areas of a vineyard can be favoured and chosen for a certain suitable cask; certain areas might always produce the auction wine or special cuvee (spatlese #5 seems to be a regular special), or it might just be the best patch of a given vintage.

Here's a few casks from recent years:

Cask #2: Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett 07, Graacher Domprobst Kabinett 08
Cask #3: Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett 08
Cask #5: Graacher Domprobst Spatlese 06, 07 and 08
Cask #6: Graacher Domprobst Spatlese 08 auction wine
Cask #8: Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett 07; Graacher Domprobst Auslese 08; Graacher Domprobst BA 06; Graacher Domprobst Auslese 04
Cask #9: Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett 07 (late release, arriving in Aus in mid-Feb); Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett 08; Graacher Himmelreich Auslese 05
Cask #10: Graacher Domprobst Auslese 07, Graacher Domprobst Spatlese 08
Cask #11: Graacher Domprobst Auslese 08 auction wine
Cask #12: Graacher Domprobst Spatlese 07
Cask #13: Graacher Himmelreich Auslese 07
Cask #14: Graacher Himmelreich Spatlese 07, Graacher Domprobst Auslese 06
Cask #16: Graacher Domprobst Kabinett 07
Cask #17: Graacher Domprobst Auslese 07

The AP number to look for is the second to last pair in the sequence. The estate riesling is usually #01 and is more than one cask. Schaefer has made fewer separate parcels for this vintage, but sent what he felt were his best spatlese and auslese to the Trier auction. The producers are encouraged by the VDP to send their best wines, but Willi always ends up trying to hose down the prices by throwing more and more bottles into the mix.

Anyone can go to the auctions. They are held late September and start with the Bernkasteler Ring auction for non-VDP producers. I think the one I went to (2008) was across the river from Zeltingen. You get to try everything in the morning, and then everything again as each lot is auctioned, so it's an awesome way to get a snapshot of the vintage. It's certainly a way to gain prestige for the growers, so it's more important for the up and comers. Sometimes producers put up back vintages too, and I scored a couple of bottles of 1964 from Piesport for under $100 a bottle -- recorked, but had never left the domaine before, and the colour appears awesome.

Trier is the auction for the Mosel big boys, and Willi Schaefer, Thomas Haag (Schloss Lieser), Oliver Haag (Fritz Haag), Roman Niewodniczanski (Van Volxem), Egon Muller, JJ Prum and one or two others get rock-star receptions. Well, as much as you can from Germans The morning tasting is a bit of a scrum, then you go for lunch and come back for the action. Anyone can bid, but the accepted method is to register with a commissionaire, who does the haggling for you. The auction process can be a bit dreary when you have five or six blokes up the front trying to work out who gets what. Basically once that have reduced the field to few enough buyers for the bottles available, that's the price. But when you get three blokes who say they want 10 dozen of something at no limit, it gets a bit hairy. That's when Willi pleads with them to stop and he keeps adding stock to the lot until they are satisfied. His wines can therefore bought at very reasonable prices (and I picked up a dozen of his top auslese from 07).

Schloss Lieser took the top price for a spatlese this year (48 euros) while Willi's was the bargain of the auction at 25e. There's a commissionaire's fee to add as well (20-25% IO think). Some things do go crazy, like 1000e+ for a bottle of 1959 Egon Muller TBA, but this year there were some very smart BAs picked up for 60e.

The other VDP auctions are at Kloster Eberbach for the Rheingau, and Bad Kreuznach for the Nahe and Pfalz, where you can try some awful spatburgunders and marvel at the high prices the Germans will pay for them

As for goldcaps, long goldcaps or asterisks as some producers prefer, I think it is fairly subjective, although I recall some must-weight guidelines at some point.

Often a producer might declassify something to a goldcap though, so therefore an eiswein becomes an auslese goldcap (not a BA or TBA because of the absence of enough botrytis), or a BA is dropped to auslese goldcap. Sometimes it's a way or protecting the higher prices for wines usually available in limited quantities. Hence instead of increasing your production from 100 litres to 1000 litres of BA and trying to still get 150 euros for it, they protect the BA standard and release 900 litres of auslese goldcap.

There are often freak wines though: Emrich-Schonleber made two eisweins from 08, and one will go to auction. They also made a TBA goldcap in 03 which I bought.

I will occasionally offer auction wines for sale, but they are expensive because once the price is set at auction, the producer can't sell it for less than that (say if he had 120 bottles of something but sent only 12 to auction). And as we all know, once you start adding on freight, shipping, import duty, WET, GST, importer/wholesaler/retailer margin, you're looking at about 3.5-4 times the purchase price.

I've probably generated as many questions as I've answered, but feel free to ask more and if I don't know I can find out. Of course I am biased (as per the signature) ... I import Willi Schaefer, Schloss Lieser, Emrich-Schonleber, Van Volxem, etc etc.

Cheers,
Neville