The Auswine Forum

January marked the 150th month wifey and I have partaken in this little ritual (see monthly 1996 thread), so we wanted something special. We agreed it had to be fine dining. Several of our favourites closed on the day, but had special hopes that a three hatter in Sydney could accommodate us. Made the phone calls, got a table, but then asked very politely if we could BYO a special bottle- 1996 Rousseau Chambertin. Reply from manager was that she will check with the owner. Unfortunately, was called back and was advised that BYO was strictly not allowed, so we went elsewhere…

Now, at another establishment, we went the degustation option, started with a half bottle of Krug (off the wine list), followed with a half bottle of 2004 Martray CC (off the wine list), had our bottle of wine (where we happily paid a 40 dollar corckage), and finished off with a couple of glasses of prestige cognac (off the wine list). We concluded the night with a bill in excess of $1000, and left a tip just under 10%.

I just don’t understand how in this financial crisis, restaurants could have the blanket rule to disallow BYO, and turn back clientele…

Thoughts?

Monghead.

I agree it is very silly. They would have got the money from the wine and the food in addition to the corkage. Best to vote with your feet and simply patronize the restaurants that best satisfy one's needs

cheers

Carl

I am with you Monghead. I do not dine at restaurants that do not allow BYO.

At a $40 a bottle corkage, are are not doing badly in the profit department. Better to do that than have vacant seats in the joint.

Anyone who is going to pay $40 a bottle corkage isn't likely to bring a bottle of Chateau Critterplonk.

Monghead,

From my limited experience, $40 a bottle corkage, by special arrangement, in a non-BYO restaurant is still outrageous. Would they make that if you ordered an average bottle off their wine list? ........

...... oh dear, they probably would. I'm with TORB on the BYO preference, and I'm prepared to pay for decent wine service and glassware (which is what you're really paying for, apart from greed and profit) if it is provided.

I have a favourite Italian restaurant in Inglewood WA that is the epitome of this. Although I believe they are in the process of acquiring a liquor licence. Hopefully they will retain their BYO wine status.

Cheers

Allan

Monghead,

I hear you ! USD40 is about as cheap as it gets in NYC for corkage, and even still, very few permit it compared to Oz. There are a ton of restaurants who were booked out 4 weeks in advance last year and are now only 3/4 full, yet they still wont budge on the no-byo policy. Crazy...

Corkage in this part of the world is about $25-30. But many places have their own rules. You can't bring a wine that is on their list, you can only bring two bottles, etc. The best deal is one place that allows free corkage as long as the wine is 5 years or older. I reckon that is sensible in terms of attracting the serious wineos.

Mike

monghead wrote:I just don’t understand how in this financial crisis, restaurants could have the blanket rule to disallow BYO, and turn back clientele…

Thoughts?

Monghead.

I think we will see quite a few restauarants closing in the next few months. Like you, I search for BYO's for special occasions to take the wines I treasure and it's surprising more are not waiving the BYO policy in these times.

We went to a BYO last Saturday night, a former favourite although had not been there 17 months. Food was very good and corkage only $5 a bottle. However, what was surprising was the restaurant was not full and this used to be one of those places that buzzed. The taxi took just 10 minutes to arrive when we left, instead of what used to be about up to half an hour at that time of night.

Taxi driver said the taxis were not busy and restaurants all over were quiet. People were just not going out.

The meals for four of us cost $255. Imagine if we had paid for the wines as well. And would the wines have been as enjoyable to drink. I don't think so!

I admit my preference is for BYO.

I would rather drink something from my own cellar than something unknown, at an inflated price!!

I do frequent some licensed restaurants, but only those that charge a reasonable additional corkage charge for a special bottle!
I usually mention this on making a booking.

I find it very annoying & it detracts from the dining experience if I need to order a particular wine, which I wouldnt usually bother with.

NOT all licensed restaurants have extensive wine lists which satisfy all tastes & some attempt to charge exhorbitant prices for corkage!

A lot in my experience, have no problem charging accordingly for inferior wine & then serve it in tacky glassware!

I can appreciate that restaurant proprietors are out to make a profit, but considering current business downturns, I would have expected they would be going out of their way to maintain & satisfy their current clientel!

There are however some that still do it well.......perhaps these do attempt to go that extra yard to provide an enjoyable dining experience.

End of Rant

Ronaldo

Some good points raised above and I too admit that I prefer BYO restaurants. That said, I have still been to some good licenced restaurants - Piaf here in Brisbane was the latest and was very good with a small but inexpensive wine selection.

I can understand why licenced restaurants might have a blanket non-BYO policy. It would save them the difficulty of the "is it really a special wine?" discussion, and the possibility that a customer who has been told there is no BYO sees someone bringing their own bottle ("Oh but that is a special bottle madam, we allow people to bring special bottles"). Sometimes a lack of discretion saves time and arguments! What I am trying to say is that it might not be just about the money.

I don't think it fair to compare BYO and licenced establishments in this way. Apples and oranges. If you say you aren't going to eat oranges because they aren't like apples........

My 2c

Michael

rooview wrote:Why complain about restaurants making profit on their lists?

The cost of providing good glassware, decanters, service, repours, storage cost, list maintenance is signficant.

I object to paying 100% (or more) on RRP when they buy it wholesale and keep it in sometimes dubious conditions for (luckily) not very long.

The whole BYO discussion has been done to death over the years, I'll have to search out the cost analysis I saw somewhere/sometime and post it on my site for reference.

I seldom go to restaurants that don't allow BYO and have paid upwards of $50 pb for the privilege, I think $15-$20 would be profitable from me bringing a pre-decanted older red requiring 2-4 glasses and one re-pour which I would rather do myself. Maybe not as profitable as me buying a similar level wine off the list, but if they are losing money on the food and need exhorbitant markups on wine to cover that then the food isn't good enough to attract customers at a profitable price.

I'm peeved with BYO in Hong Kong who aren't passing on tax free wine savings. One reastaruant, Ceccoinis of Melb' fame, upped their BYO from $50 AUD to $70AUD. Yet, the oldest wine on their list is 02.

We were turning up with Barolos and Australians 20 years old plus. Certainly not piss taking by buying something cheap & retail.

Regardless, $70 is bloody ridiculous.

Monghead

you've every right to feel annoyed, it is such bad business to refuse a customer BYO when they have gone out of their way to request it.

Name names........!!!!!

Gianna wrote:Monghead

Name names........!!!!!

And email them a link to this thread!

rooview wrote:We don't complain about wine retailers (or distributors) making profit on wine.

Why complain about restaurants making profit on their lists?

The cost of providing good glassware, decanters, service, repours, storage cost, list maintenance is signficant.

Agree with so much you are saying rooview...

But...

Restaurants are businesses, and sure, they should try their utmost to return a profit at the end of the day, otherwise there is really no point is there? However, I believe this should predominantly be from their primary product- food.

I believe wine is where they make "easy" profit, and they abuse this priviledge by grossly inflated prices. The older the wine, and the more iconic it is, the higher the mark-up, as it seems to be a percentage of the retail price- i.e 150-300%. Now you can't tell me a $20 bottle of vino is alot cheaper to store, serve, and produce glassware than a $300 one, but you will see the restaurant pocket $20-30 for the cheaper wine, but $300-450 for the pricier one. THIS is what does not make sense. If the "mark up" was fixed per bottle e.g. $20 for wines under $80, $40 for wines $80-150, etc, or whatever for the restaurant to cover wine costs and return a profit (but not make a killing), then I understand. So it comes back to what I think is unfair- making more profit from the wine than the meal...

Monghead.

JamieBahrain wrote:I'm peeved with BYO in Hong Kong who aren't passing on tax free wine savings. One reastaruant, Ceccoinis of Melb' fame, upped their BYO from $50 AUD to $70AUD. Yet, the oldest wine on their list is 02.

We were turning up with Barolos and Australians 20 years old plus. Certainly not piss taking by buying something cheap & retail.

Big problem in HK.
BYO in most restaurants are around $150-300HKD mark. That's roughly $30-60 per bottle and I've seen it higher.
The wine lists in most HK restaurants are almost non-existent, mainly Bordeauxs and the marks up are what you expect in the casino restaurants.

An AUD10-15 wine they sell for $40-50HKD. No wonder no one likes Oz wines in HK. They've never truly tried any better selections.

rooview wrote:I'd happily go to a non-BYO restaurant where food and service is excellent.

It beats a BYO restaurant with average food and lashings of truffle oil.

Agree with this too.

In fact, I tend to be alot more adventurous when buying off wine lists, trying new styles or producers. Really quite interesting.

Unfortunately, "lesser" establishments seem to think truffle oil is the panacea for average meals...

Monghead.

Red Bigot wrote:
I seldom go to restaurants that don't allow BYO and have paid upwards of $50 pb for the privilege, I think $15-$20 would be profitable from me bringing a pre-decanted older red requiring 2-4 glasses and one re-pour which I would rather do myself. Maybe not as profitable as me buying a similar level wine off the list, but if they are losing money on the food and need exhorbitant markups on wine to cover that then the food isn't good enough to attract customers at a profitable price.

NOW you have hit the nail on the head, Ric. If you're prepared to compensate the restaurant for their glassware (hell, there have been occasions I have taken my own glassware, and not charged them for the service ) washing up, etc, and you are like me and prefer to look after your valued guests by pouring, decanting, etc, then I really don't see what the restaurant has to complain about. The restaurant is getting a better deal than if we were all teetotal and drank water, and they don't have to fuss about the finer points of wine service. Win / win, I would think.

In WA, I did this a couple of years ago for my birthday - I booked the separate back room at Clarke's of North Beach for about 20 of us. I looked after the wine service, and they looked after the food (superbly) and kept the water topped up. I'm considering doing the same again for my birthday this year (April) - the bill was around $80 per head, but more importantly Clarke's was prepared to work with, and around, what I wanted to do with wine service, and even set up a separate table for decanting and holding the reds.

That's the sort of partnership I want in a restaurant. Who's offering?

Cheers

Allan

Waiters Friend wrote:

Red Bigot wrote:
I seldom go to restaurants that don't allow BYO and have paid upwards of $50 pb for the privilege, I think $15-$20 would be profitable from me bringing a pre-decanted older red requiring 2-4 glasses and one re-pour which I would rather do myself. Maybe not as profitable as me buying a similar level wine off the list, but if they are losing money on the food and need exhorbitant markups on wine to cover that then the food isn't good enough to attract customers at a profitable price.

NOW you have hit the nail on the head, Ric. If you're prepared to compensate the restaurant for their glassware (hell, there have been occasions I have taken my own glassware, and not charged them for the service ) washing up, etc, and you are like me and prefer to look after your valued guests by pouring, decanting, etc, then I really don't see what the restaurant has to complain about. The restaurant is getting a better deal than if we were all teetotal and drank water, and they don't have to fuss about the finer points of wine service. Win / win, I would think.

In WA, I did this a couple of years ago for my birthday - I booked the separate back room at Clarke's of North Beach for about 20 of us. I looked after the wine service, and they looked after the food (superbly) and kept the water topped up. I'm considering doing the same again for my birthday this year (April) - the bill was around $80 per head, but more importantly Clarke's was prepared to work with, and around, what I wanted to do with wine service, and even set up a separate table for decanting and holding the reds.

That's the sort of partnership I want in a restaurant. Who's offering?

Cheers

Allan

Brian, not Ric.

My wine groups keep patronising the restaurants that know how to look after a group of 15-20 bringing about that many bottles of wine, or more. The best of them set up a little table for the wine and ask how much assistance we want (usually not much) and provide at least 2 glasses per person, plus decanters, flutes and dessert wine glasses. They manage to do this for $10-$15 per bottle or per person and provide excellent food and service, sometimes a fixed menu, sometimes a la carte, sometimes even a mix of the two to cater for dietary constraints.