The Auswine Forum

Have read alot about this style and its ageing capability. Can someone pls help me with the following:

(1) If you were to buy the best example and price is no object which would you buy please (Oz producers only) - the Vat 1 or Lovedale say? And which vintage specifically (of the current releases)? Only choose one pls!

(2) How does Hunter Semillon compare to Margaret River pls? I ask because I have heard that the Moss Wood is also pretty good.

Thanks.

1. Tyrrell's Reserve HVD Semillon 95. I've seen it for $75 at Ultimo Wine Centre, or on the fine wine list at the Wharf restaurant.

2. I'll leave this one to people who know what they're talking about.

Kieran

The 97 Tyrrells Belford Reserve Semillon is an awesome wine, as to the Mount Pleasant Lovedale Semillon 98.

However, for value for money how can you go past the Mount Pleasant Elizabeth semillon? A great wine that ages really well and drinks well after 8 years in the cellar.

cheers
anthony

Sorry last post was from me

anthony

Both the current releases (1998 I think) of the Vat 1 and the Lovedale are glorious drinks. In fact neither has released a poor vintage for yonks.

The ageability of Vat 1 is beyond question - 20 years in good conditions for most vintages. Mount Pleasant only started to release Lovedale again in the 1995 vintage after a break since 1986 so the longevity of the recent vintages remains untried, but having tasted each vintage since the 1995, I am very confident that they are long haul wines too.

If you are buying for immediate consumption, I'd go for the Lovedale everytime, not because of any durability concerns, but because I think they are a little less austere than young Vat 1s. They also have a hint of CO2 when they are young which provides a nice zing in the mouth.

They both retail in the same price range ($35-$40). If they were Chardonnay they would be double the price such are their quality.

Blake

I'd say Tyrrell's Vat 1, with around 8-10 years age on it. I know this is not current release, however if money is no object the some shops may have it. The 1997 Belford is very smart.

Q1] I'm with Anthony on this one. The '97 Belford is a cracker of a wine - drinking well now - but surely will be much better down the track. BTW, haven't tried the latest Lovedale (the '96 is very, very, smart) nor the Vat 1 (the '96 is the youngest I've opened - again extremely good - TCA problems the only sore point, I hear) nor the Brokenwood ILR. That '95 HVD mentioned earlier is another great wine to look out for, but very pricey!

Q2] Don't buy or try them - so of no help, soory.

(1) If you were to buy the best example and price is no object which would you buy please (Oz producers only) - the Vat 1 or Lovedale say? And which vintage specifically (of the current releases)? Only choose one pls!

Can't go wrong with either Vat 1 or Lovedale. The 98 Lovedale is very tight at the moment and not good drinking. '97 Belford good value but young too although not unapproachable. '95 Tyrells HVD better if you want to impress now with some idea of aged character or also try the current '95 (you may find the better '94) museum release Mt Pleasant Elisabeth for around $30. There are other excellent wines like 98 Meerea Park Alexander Munro and a whole raft of younger wines that are very good - Briar Ridge Early Harvest 2001,2,3 all good (esp 2001).

(2) How does Hunter Semillon compare to Margaret River pls? I ask because I have heard that the Moss Wood is also pretty good.

Hunter Semillon when best is an early picked style i.e. high in acid and low in alcohol. This fairly plain anodyne drink blossoms into honeyed rich and toasy necter of the gods after (say) 7 years. The Margaret River style is richer and more often than not treated like a chardonnay with barrel work and full or partial malo to add texture e.g. Voyager, Fermoy. Moss Wood did some barrel Sems for some vintages but normally produce now with no oak,lively acidity and higer alcohol for medium term ageing.
I like both styles and really like the Voyager.

Hope this helps
GW

Sorry in regards to the 2nd question, you would have to say that the Hunter and Margaret River are at opposite spectrums in regards to Semillon.

Margaret River Semillon is usually wooded and drinks well from a younger age. It is bigger, more robust and has a lot more in common with Hunter Chard than Hunter Semillon. Best example for me would be Moss Wood.

Hunter Valley Semillon, is (when young) tight, restrained, acidic which means there is not much point drinking it under 5 years of age.

Hope this helps,
anthony

jeez gary,
were you reading my mind?

Anthony wrote:jeez gary,
were you reading my mind?

Yes...took me a couple of seconds

I suspect the Margaret river wines are generally higher in alcohol that the Hunter wines. Not sure how many of the MR producers make a straight Semillon - Cullen's wine is a Sem - SB blend (lately 14.0-14.5%), which seems a popular choice. I think the best makers will live for a while, but not as long as top Hunter Semillon. Also, MR whites (non-chardy) often seem to have a strongly green capsicum/asparagus flavour, which I never find in the Hunter.

If you join Tyrrell's Private Bin list, the Vat 1 only costs you around $25 in the year of vintage. Tasting Vat 1 picked 9 months prior is a very interesting experience - no need to brush your teeth before that encounter!

The other semillons they make - Vat 4 , Vat 18 Belford, are usually pretty good value too. Why anyone would buy cheaply-oaked $15 chardonnay from the local bottle-O when these can be had for the same price baffles me.

Elizabeth is a bit hit and miss these days, I find. Don't know whether that's to do with production volumes, or whether since the resurrection of Lovedale in 95, it's suffering by missing out on the top fruit. Anyone know what the production volumes of Elizabeth & Lovedale are?

It's surprising how few makers seem to carry the reputation of Semillon in the Hunter...

cheers,
Graeme

GraemeG wrote:
Elizabeth is a bit hit and miss these days, I find. Don't know whether that's to do with production volumes, or whether since the resurrection of Lovedale in 95, it's suffering by missing out on the top fruit. Anyone know what the production volumes of Elizabeth & Lovedale are?

It's surprising how few makers seem to carry the reputation of Semillon in the Hunter...

cheers,
Graeme

MR Sems normally 14%ish

I think Elizabeth is as good as ever in my book - 99 super wine. About 20,000+ cases of lizzy from memory (could be wrong)

There are heaps of makers making excellent semillon in the Hunter they just don't have the provenance and names of Lovedale and Vat 1.


GW

Firstly, I don't bother cellaring Semillion. It's a waste of space in my wine fridge. When it come to Semillion, I tend to go for Barossa's. It's approcable upon released(not sure if it cellar well ) I like the musky, bee waxy characteristic, untuous with mouthfilling texture as oppose to the more elegant Hunter. Some that impressed were P.Lehman's & JJ Hahn.

Anonymous wrote:
MR Sems normally 14%ish

I think Elizabeth is as good as ever in my book - 99 super wine. About 20,000+ cases of lizzy from memory (could be wrong)

There are heaps of makers making excellent semillon in the Hunter they just don't have the provenance and names of Lovedale and Vat 1.

GW

Yes, the 99 Lizzy was good - I was unimpressed by 98 - surprising, as I thought 98 Lovedale was a stunner. I was sure there was another recent-ish vintage that I thought disappointing - 2000 perhaps? Can't remember!

If your ~20k is accurate, then it suggests that Lovedale is probably, what 2-3k worth? Maybe not a significant impact on the quality of what goes into Elizabeth...

As to makers, I guess I'm thinking that perhaps the great vineyards/fruit that Rothbury & Lindemans used to have are no longer used to make the long-living styles we associate with the Hunter? I've not tasted the regular Brokenwood release with lots of years on it - I did taste the 94 ILR at about 5 years of age and was surprised how evolved it was compared to say, a Vat 1 of the same age.

And others, like Andrew Margan, who I believe have access to good fruit are not necessarily doing the early pick/low alcohol/long life wine we might otherwise expect. Is there a view that the wines made thus don't command the price premium they deserve, and that consequently it's better to make a less austere, more immediately appealing wine?

I've not really expored the 'boutique semillon' part of the Hunter, but seem to just be sticking to Mt Pleasant & Tyrrells. Just lazy, I guess...

cheers,
Graeme

From my experience MR sems (wooded, riper styles) look pretty approachable post bottling for up to 12 months. They then seem to fall in a hole where the fresh primary characters start to dissipate and a stalky/chalky edge takes over – a character I always associated with old Hunter (don’t shoot!), although I should say old Hunter wines can carry this character far better. Graeme, this may be the character you were referring to.

Its not particularly attractive during this time, but after around 4-5 years, when all primary characters have gone the wines blossom again into multi-layered, textured, complex, honeyed beauties. Somewhere between aged Riesling and aged chardonnay is as close as I can describe. Fantastic food wines.

In my view there are many fine examples of excellent Margaret River semillon, however people probably don’t get to see them at their best.

I was with Amberley for a couple of years and we conducted a few semillon verticals which led me to this theory.

Amberley, Ashbrook, Moss Bros, Mosswood, Hay Shed Hill have all made wines to age and fit the criteria above. Ribbonvale used to in its pre-Mosswood life.

Others like E&T, Vasse Felix, Xanadu, Sandstone, Voyager all make semillon but I can’t speak for their ageing capability. I’m sure there’s plenty more.

While I was with Alexandra Bridge we made a cracker under the 101 label. It won golds around the traps but very little was made and is probably hard to find.

Also, try Merum from the Pemberton region – their 02 sem is a pearler. Winning awards and praise all over the shop.

Also, tried a 98 St Halletts Semillon at NYE bbq - looked sensational with chicken snags and rare steaks, although I'm not certain if it was nearing the end of good drinking or blossoming into a new era.

I must have been working hard today to miss this post until now - my favourite topic, Hunter Semillon!

My quick comments:

1) Although I did not think it possible to on this topic (Semillon), I must provide further support to MartinC - Barossa Semillon is cracking good value for money, especially when aged for a few years. They really develop great breadth, and in much quicker time that Hunter Semillon. I had a magnum of 1997 Basedow "El Cheapo" Barossa Semillon recently and it was great - Highly Recommended if you need a rating. I also notice Rockford's current release is a 2000 and Peter Lehmann release an aged Semillon as well. BYW & FWIW, I don't really rate Clare Semillon!

2) With regard to the differences between Hunter & WA (& Barossa), I agree with Gary but would like to add a bit and maybe disagree slightly and make an associated addition.
The adding bit: I find that WA Semillon has more of greenness, although grassiness is in both, this greenness seems to be like capsicum - like the stuff found in their Sauv Blancs as well. Anyway, I don't like it (please note that I don't really like Sauv Blanc in general due to this so this is definitely a subjective thing). Interestingly, as discussed, WA Semillon is picked much riper (per alcohol indication) yet has this feature which is usually associated with being less ripe. Barossa Semillon does not have this feature.

The slight difference with an addition: Hunter Semillon can be great wines in their youth. I feel that they can have a floral component that WA does not have - maybe I simply have not given it a fair go - most of the good Semillons goes into the CDW blend and I don't search for the good varietals. I remember drinking numerous bottles of the 2000 Constable & Hershon Semillon last year that were absolutely spectacular - a bit like a Riesling. Unfortunately, the 2001 was not and I admit that most examples, including the earlier drinking Tyrrells wines, are not in the “top league” as that particular wine on release - so such as wine is probably not the "usual" – although fresh seafood such as oysters can make a big difference – I had the Kulkunbulla Semillon young served with oysters at a wine show and it was great – however, I get the feeling that to be able to age well, it needs to be quite, what some might say "acidically undrinkable" at an early age. Every time I drink the Vat 1 in its year of vintage, or young Lovedales, or even young Elizabeths, I am aware that not many other either than I would enjoy it. However, the Semillon over at Brokenwood always tend to be approachable on release... hmmmm... confusion... brain explosion!

With regard to Hunter Semillon I would buy if money no object, I would buy either the 1976 Tyrrells Vat 1 or 1986 Tyrrells Vat 1 or 1987 Tyrrells Vat 1 or 1989 Tyrrells Vat 1 or 1975 Mount Pleasant Anne or 1984 Mount Pleasant Lovedale or 1986 Mount Pleasant Lovedale or 1965 Lindemans Bin 2760 "Riesling" or 1970 Lindemans Bin 3875 "Chablis" or 1987 Lindemans Bin 7055 "Classic Release" Semillon or 1987 Lindemans Bin 7071 "Reserve" Semillon!

Seriously, the 1995 Tyrrell's Reserve HVD Semillon is quite amazing and still available as is the 1989 Tyrrells Vat 1 at Kemeny's if you buy it is a 6-pack with a few other Tyrrells wines including other Semillons.

Must get back to work and stop waffling,
Adair

As a few members have mentioned, tastes and preferences can be quite personal. For what its worth I pefer aged Margaret River semillon over aged Hunter Semillon anyday. My favourite semillon ever tasted was a 6 year old Mosswood semillon 1995. The aromatics were sublime and the palate was pefection for my tastes. On the other hand I have tried many so called 'great' aged hunter semillons and almost exclusively have never been blown away and am ususually left wondering whay I paid the price tag. To me they often seem boring and thin.

Recently I tried an 18 month old Mosswood semillon 2002 and found it very closed and austere, but you could tell it had great aspirations and needed to be left alone for a few years. Mosswood say their wine will cellar at least 10 years but I personally have not tried their's older than 6 years. I have some 95's up to 02's, so in years to come I will be better informed.

Cheers

Justin B. wrote:Recently I tried an 18 month old Mosswood semillon 2002 and found it very closed and austere, but you could tell it had great aspirations and needed to be left alone for a few years. Mosswood say their wine will cellar at least 10 years but I personally have not tried their's older than 6 years. I have some 95's up to 02's, so in years to come I will be better informed.

Cheers

Justin, tasted a few early '90's Mosswoods this year and vaguely recall them hanging in there. There was one dud, but appeared a victim of random ox. Haven't seen a vertical to really test the ageing capability.

I like both old Hunter and MR. A 10yr old Vat 1 when its just starting to loosen up is pretty special I reckon. And I've always been an Elizabeth fan - great vfm imo.

Cheers, brad

Re: Moss Wood Semillon - if someone argues that Moss Wood Semillon is Australia's greatest Semillon, despite my love of Hunter Semillon, I will not argue differently.

I have had a handful of them from the 1980's recently and a few of them were pretty awesome. However, if you do want to purchase some of these, make sure you get the unwooded version. Moss Wood previously released 2 Semillons, one wooded and one unwooded, and the unwooded aged significantly better. Now all the Moss Wood Semillon is unwooded.

I guess I feel great aged WA Semillon to be as rare as great young Hunter Semillon.

Adair.

An interesting departure from the classic Hunter style can be found in the last two vintages of the Keith Tulloch Semillon. A small batch of barrel fermented fruit really throws a little something extra into the mix,very interesting.


Cheers

At this point in time I just have to jump in with a huge thank you to all who have contributed so far and those still to contribute possible!

I have found this quite rivetting and am busily scribbling down names to buy - moved from one bottle to now 6-12 mixed case to try.

I just hope the wines live up to the generous enthusiasm displayed by all you guys who passionately responded. I've learnt so much - so thx again!

Guest - Barry wrote:At this point in time I just have to jump in with a huge thank you to all who have contributed so far and those still to contribute possible!

I have found this quite rivetting and am busily scribbling down names to buy - moved from one bottle to now 6-12 mixed case to try.

I just hope the wines live up to the generous enthusiasm displayed by all you guys who passionately responded. I've learnt so much - so thx again!

Barry,

Just a quick rule of thumb I've learnt over the years - Classic Hunter Semillon is at its' glorious best with 10+ years on it. Don't be surprised if you crack, say, a '98 Lovedale and be disappointed with the lack of development and high acidity. McWilliams held back the release of the '84 Lovedale for years, probably because it wasn't ready. The '91 and '92 Vat 1 haven't hit their straps yet. The '94 Vat 1 is fully mature, though. Adair's reco's are valid and worth noting, but as you requested 'current release' Semillons, you might well look at few Museum Elizabeths that are out on the shelves at the moment. Keep an eye out for the '95 in the future. We're just noticing they're coming into full bloom of late. A huge improvement on where it was a few years back. Good luck!

I'm with Brad with regards to Merum Semillon, out of Pemberton. Outrageously good wine, and if you get the chance try the Shiraz (they only make the 2 wines - influenced by HV of all places ), very classy.

Cheers

Mark G

Mark G wrote:I'm with Brad with regards to Merum Semillon, out of Pemberton. Outrageously good wine, and if you get the chance try the Shiraz (they only make the 2 wines - influenced by HV of all places ), very classy.

Cheers

Mark G

Hahaha! That is great. WA-MR Shiraz and Semillon influenced by the HV. I must try them.

Thanks for the note.

Adair

Not to be picky, but Pemberton is not quite MR and produces wines which range from great to well..... not so great. Maria Melstrum (spelling?), before her unfortunate death, was raised in the HV and with her surviving husband Mike set about making a semillon / shiraz vineyard near Quinninup (Pemberton wine region). It's a vineyard well worth supporting as they make great wine .... enough said.

Cheers

Mark G

Mark G wrote:Not to be picky, but Pemberton is not quite MR and produces wines which range from great to well..... not so great. Maria Melstrum (spelling?), before her unfortunate death, was raised in the HV and with her surviving husband Mike set about making a semillon / shiraz vineyard near Quinninup (Pemberton wine region). It's a vineyard well worth supporting as they make great wine .... enough said.

Cheers

Mark G

Yes, thanks for the correction - a little slip but there are many similarities to MR especially when compared to HV.

Also, my first memorable wine was from just down the road at Manjimup.

Adair

Adair wrote:

Mark G wrote:Not to be picky, but Pemberton is not quite MR and produces wines which range from great to well..... not so great. Maria Melstrum (spelling?), before her unfortunate death, was raised in the HV and with her surviving husband Mike set about making a semillon / shiraz vineyard near Quinninup (Pemberton wine region). It's a vineyard well worth supporting as they make great wine .... enough said.

Cheers

Mark G

Yes, thanks for the correction - a little slip but there are many similarities to MR especially when compared to HV.

Also, my first memorable wine was from just down the road at Manjimup.

Adair

You went to Manjimup? Were you lost?

Mike and Maria Melsom were the founders of Merum. Both had worked in MR prior to setting up in Pemberton.

brad wrote:You went to Manjimup? Were you lost?

I think your question answers itself - no I did not go to Manjimup, but Pemberton and Manjimup look close on a map!

The wine was from Manjimup though!

Adair