The Auswine Forum

Just a general question as per topic.

In Australia, I've always presumed that Australian Shiraz is usually slightly more powerful/heavier/peppery than even a big Australia Cabernet Sauvignon, plus there are always chances of buying a softer Cab Sauv than a Shiraz, therefore in a taste test or during dinners, do you normally open a Cab Sauv first before any Shiraz? (Only exception I'm aware of is sometimes, a cooler region Shiraz blended with Viognier might be tasted before any Cabs).

1) Is this logic accurate at all in general?

2) If when organising the wine tasting or dinner, assuming we do not know the wines pre-opening and there is no way to determine whether the Shirazs or Cabernet Sauvignon is bigger than the other, what is then the norm to organise this tasting/bottle opening procedure?

3) What about, if both the Syrah and Cabernet Sauv were French bottles instead of Australian ones, does that make a difference?

4) What about when opening a Shiraz/Cab blend, or say opening Shiraz next to a Cabernet blend or a GSM, etc?



To my palate I've always thought that local Aussie shirazs were 'mostly' but not always conclusively bolder than Cab Sauvs in general, alcohol, colour and sugar wise. Is this assumption also correct? I just find it hard to determine the drinking order sometimes, when we head out to dinners.

Part answer.... when it comes to Oz wines, generally speaking if you are comparing Cab Sauv and Shiraz from the same vintage and region, say for example Barossa 2002 Shiraz and Cab, then the Shiraz will be more approachable.

The biggest factor here is tannin.

The Cabernet grape is smaller and the resulting tannins take longer to soften.

If not from the same region then age is a major factor. A 2001 Cabernet from Coonawarra is more likely to be approachable than a 2006 Shiraz from Heathcote.

If the wines are blended, it would depend on the blend. Then you start getting into "how long is a bit of string."

I think that overanalyses Cab vs Shiraz by a long way. I've sat in tastings where people with years of wine tasting and drinking experience are presented similarly styled wines blind and in some cases can't be sure which is Cabernet and which is Shiraz!

Also how do you treat a Cabernet Shiraz blend?

In general I agree with Ric leave the heavier more tannic wines until last, and this would usually but not always mean the Cabernets. Bottle age can also matter, as can region of origin, and a whole bunch of things.

Cheers

Andrew

In a blind tasting, if you have chosen to mix the varieties blends then you have to go for a random order unless you are rigging the exercise.

In my regular Monday tastings we seldom mix young cabernets with young shiraz, the shiraz nearly always come out on top as they are generally more approachable at the same young age, at least in the price brackets we are tasting. The young cabernets are usually more tannic and the acid often seems more prominent, the shiraz more cuddly and approachable, even if the tannis are firm.

If you are tasting blind at a dinner (eg to play options, only the provider knowing the wine) then you have a problem, so either let the provider choose the course the wine is tried with or do a quick sample taste-off.

If the wines are not masked but you simply have no idea what the wines are like, then a quick sample taste is probably recommended to see which order/courses they might go with. Where possible I know what food is on offer and pick wines accordingly, some people do it the other way round.

I tend to open older, softer wines with the early courses and if there are younger wines, these would often be served with the main course(s) if they are more substantial and suit the younger wines, but of course this could be reversed depending on the food.

I don't think there are any definitive answers tou your questions. The way I approach it is that tastings or home meals are for trying new things, group dinners are for trying wines you know something about and think will go well with the food and company, others may like more risk and uncertainty. If unsure of the wine or food I will always take one or more backups, apart from the cork insurance backup.

This was the list of wines from my cellar that we drank at a wine group dinner last week, in the order served with a 3-course meal. I think there were 2-3 bottles of white for the non-red bigots (or spouses) in the group.

Jacquesson Cuvee 730 NV Champagne
E&E Black Pepper Sparkling Shiraz 2002

Seppelt Dorrien Cabernet 1996
Eileen Hardy Shiraz 1996

Francois Parent Pommard 1er Cru Les Rugiens 2000 (for those eating the duck main course)
Penfolds Bin 389 Cab-Shiraz 1998 (Magnum)
Johns Blend Margaretes Shiraz 1998 (Magnum)
Orlando Centenary Hill Shiraz 2002

Dessert/Cheese
Morris Cellar Door Tokay
Seppelt Touriga VP 1987
Fox Creek Reserve Shiraz 2002

All under cork, thankfully no tca, but one of the two EH Shiraz 96 was a leeser example than the first and one of the Centenary Hill corks had wept a bit and the wine was just beginning to oxidise.

Red Bigot wrote:In a blind tasting, if you have chosen to mix the varieties blends then you have to go for a random order unless you are rigging the exercise.

In my regular Monday tastings we seldom mix young cabernets with young shiraz, the shiraz nearly always come out on top as they are generally more approachable at the same young age, at least in the price brackets we are tasting. The young cabernets are usually more tannic and the acid often seems more prominent, the shiraz more cuddly and approachable, even if the tannis are firm.

If you are tasting blind at a dinner (eg to play options, only the provider knowing the wine) then you have a problem, so either let the provider choose the course the wine is tried with or do a quick sample taste-off.

If the wines are not masked but you simply have no idea what the wines are like, then a quick sample taste is probably recommended to see which order/courses they might go with. Where possible I know what food is on offer and pick wines accordingly, some people do it the other way round.

I tend to open older, softer wines with the early courses and if there are younger wines, these would often be served with the main course(s) if they are more substantial and suit the younger wines, but of course this could be reversed depending on the food.

I don't think there are any definitive answers tou your questions. The way I approach it is that tastings or home meals are for trying new things, group dinners are for trying wines you know something about and think will go well with the food and company, others may like more risk and uncertainty. If unsure of the wine or food I will always take one or more backups, apart from the cork insurance backup.

This was the list of wines from my cellar that we drank at a wine group dinner last week, in the order served with a 3-course meal. I think there were 2-3 bottles of white for the non-red bigots (or spouses) in the group.

Jacquesson Cuvee 730 NV Champagne
E&E Black Pepper Sparkling Shiraz 2002

Seppelt Dorrien Cabernet 1996
Eileen Hardy Shiraz 1996

Francois Parent Pommard 1er Cru Les Rugiens 2000 (for those eating the duck main course)
Penfolds Bin 389 Cab-Shiraz 1998 (Magnum)
Johns Blend Margaretes Shiraz 1998 (Magnum)
Orlando Centenary Hill Shiraz 2002

Dessert/Cheese
Morris Cellar Door Tokay
Seppelt Touriga VP 1987
Fox Creek Reserve Shiraz 2002

All under cork, thankfully no tca, but one of the two EH Shiraz 96 was a leeser example than the first and one of the Centenary Hill corks had wept a bit and the wine was just beginning to oxidise.

How were the good examples of the above wines I've bolded, Brian? Have examples of each though the Bin 389's 750ml.

I tend to agree with you and Ric in that many cabs can be quite tannic, not as approachable as shiraz when young. Of course with the diversity of wines, styles and regions that are available, there'll aways be some exceptions. For example, I found Polleters cab 05 to very approachable with big fruit flavours when I first tasted it late last year. Conversely, I found Seppelt Chalambar 04 to be very tannic with muted fruit when tried not long after release a couple of years or so ago. Had a bottle of it about six months ago and it was only starting to soften, show better fruit then. The last couple of bottles will be left for another two or so years before I try the next one.

Cheers

daz

Daz, both bottles of the Dorrien 96 were superb, it will cellar for another 10 years if you want to see it close to fully mature. This is probably the best Barossa Cabernet I've ever seen, but I haven't tried the 96 or 2004 Penfolds Block 42.

The magnum of Bin 389 98 was also showing quite youthfully compared to the last 750ml I had, I did enjoy it with my sirloin steak. It shows what 389 used to be like in the "good old days". I bought this from the old David Farmer / Theo's store when they were selling it pretty cheaply a few years ago, I should have bought half the pallet.

The better Centenary Hill 2002 was a silky stunner, pure perfectly ripe shiraz fruit, excellent mouthfeel, perfectly balanced, gorgeous wine. Lucky we opened the weepy-cork one, another year and it would probably be stuffed, I'll be checking my remaining 4 for any signs of weeping.

I had a Dorrien 96 almost 3 years ago, it was quite youthful then. Guess I'll leave the remaining bottle for at least a few more years yet. My storage of the 389 hasn't always been in the best of conditions so I may well open it within the next year or two.

Thanks for your opinion of the Centenary Hill 02. Saw Ant's TN of the 04 which was quite complimentary so asked how he found it compared to the 02 - he didn't like the 02, forget why though. I've checked my couple of bottles of the 02 without removing the capsules - thankfully, couldn't see any sign of seepage.

Cheers

daz

Daryl Douglas wrote:Thanks for your opinion of the Centenary Hill 02. Saw Ant's TN of the 04 which was quite complimentary so asked how he found it compared to the 02 - he didn't like the 02, forget why though. I've checked my couple of bottles of the 02 without removing the capsules - thankfully, couldn't see any sign of seepage.

Cheers

daz

Yeah, it's probably a little atypical of the line, but I and the group loved it.

Another semi-related question Brian... How was the 1996 Eileen Hardy? Have a couple stashed away and they must be getting close to time.

Thanks,

Matt.

Mattwine wrote:Another semi-related question Brian... How was the 1996 Eileen Hardy? Have a couple stashed away and they must be getting close to time.

Thanks,

Matt.

Matt, one of the bottles was from my cellar and was drinking really well, soft enough now that people were happily drinking it with the rare pan-seared tuna entree but not in the mature stage yet. Bottles like that would safely cellar for 4-8 years if you like them more mature. The second bottle from a Canberra passive cellar was a bit more advanced and also showed some cork mustiness.

We had a couple from my cellar at a wine dinner last year and one of those was much better than the other too, the cork lottery I guess.

Good news Brian!

As luck (or otherwise) would have it, mine are in a Canberra passive cellar too. So at the next appropriate fine drinking opportunity I might pop the cork on one of them and keep my fingers crossed that the cork lottery is kind to me. Thanks again.

Matt.

All things being equal, style and age, shiraz before cabernet. In my experience cellar doors always suggested tasting the regular shiraz before the cabernet and the reserve shiraz before the reserve cabernet. I think that's because shirazes tend to be fruitier and less tannic than cabernets.

As an aside I also noticed that some wineries released their shiraz before their cabernet, and the cabernet on tasting being a vintage behind the shiraz.

Cheers...........Mahmoud

Mahmoud Ali wrote:As an aside I also noticed that some wineries released their shiraz before their cabernet, and the cabernet on tasting being a vintage behind the shiraz.

Cheers...........Mahmoud

Mahmoud, that cellar door practice seems to be reasonably commonly reflected with the release of some (mostly mid-to-higher end) shiraz' and cabernets. Hardly surprising I suppose when it's what happens at some CDs too.

Cheers

daz

Thanks for the reasonings and suggestions.

I did an experiment and opened a few bottles. As would have expected from what's discussed here, the young cabernets definitely had a more tannicky nature than the shirazs - the cabernet wants to choke the tongue to death more, even if the shiraz was definitely bolder in fruit and spice notes it was more readily approachable. Both of same area, same vintage.

Although I do suspect that it still depends on the type of Cab being drank with the type of Shiraz when opened near one another. Some bottles of Shiraz are so bold and dusty and spicy, its another experience altogether!