The Auswine Forum

Hi folks,

Ok So its about time to invest in a cooling unit for my cellar. Noticing that I had already spent about $1500 this financial year on wine it hit it home that I need to protect my investment.

So...our cellar is 3mW x 8mL x 2mH(Approx) so say approx 48m3.

I want to add a cooling unit (say a split system) to this room to keep the room at a nice constant temp.

I am after:

- What brand?
- What size?
- good energy consumption......got to keep that electricity bill down
- Will I need an over riding thermostat etc to monitor and run the unit???
- where should I buy such a unit??? Any good places in the Newcastle region???

Any help would be great.

Cheers, Brett

P.S. Yes I searched the forum for this but didnt bring up anything too handy.

Love the PS

I've recently built a cellar, much smaller (2mW x 2.8mL x 2.4mH). However assuming your cellar is well insulated, the smallest unit you can find should do the trick.

After considerable research, I got a Mitsubishi MSGA20 (aka MSC-GA20VB) split system, cooling only, non-invertor ($800+install). http://www.mitsubishi-electric.com.au/290.htm Non-invertor because this can be more efficient for a cellar apparantly. Mitsubishi because you can set the temperature to 16C, which cools to about 15C in practice. Fujitsu can only be set as low as 18C.

I had the drain run inside the cellar, so I can put a pot underneath with a cloth to wick the humidity back into the room.

The only problem is that while the external unit switches off when not required, the internal fan keeps going. In order to fix this I'm going to have to get it wired via a socket and plug it in via a timer switch as I don't want to run it 24x7.

If you could find a unit that switches off entirely when it reaches temperature, I'd go for that. But just try finding someone who knows their stuff

Thanks for the reply there Duncan.

I will have to check out the local A/C suppliers and will check out the Mitsu options

Yes the room is insulated. Double brick with bat insulation in the walls and
also in the ceiling.

Unfortunately the external walls (2 of 4, the other 2 are internal) are
western facing and is currently un-shaded so this can dramatically increase
the temperature during the summer. However I am currently looking into
shading options for this so that should not be an issue.

Cheers, Brett

Found this:

[url="http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/portal/page/portal/tggwebcms/corporate/products/details?groupId=101&productId=1602569&forwardToProduct=true&storeId=51"]Link[/url]

Kelvinator Reverse Cycle Inverter Split System 2.6KW Cooling, 2.8KW Heating

Brand Kelvinator
EnergyRating - Cooling 5 Stars
EnergyRating - Heating 5 Stars
Cooling (KW) Capacity 2.600KW
Heating (KW) Capacity 2.80KW
Dimensions - H x W X D (mm) 325 x 1040 x 229
Warranty 5 Year Warranty
Inverter / Non Inverter Inverter

$597.00 + Installation

Any comments???

Yes, Woodwardbrett

I understand you're in the Hunter, so as warm on average as Perth (where I am). Having converted a garden shed into an insulated and airconditioned cellar, I would be asking the following questions:

1. How consistent is the thermostat?
2. How low does the thermostat allow you to cool, and maintain temperature?
3. What temperature fluctuations do you get between cycles; i.e. the unit might cool to 16', but the thermostat only triggers again when you hit 18'.

I've had the shed/cellar for 11 years now (even moved house with it, at some expense) and I can turn off the airconditioning 6 months of the year. However, after all this time, and having switched it on again within the last two weeks, I think the thermostat needs work - it triggers at 18.4' (and I keep my Hygrotherm at the furthest and highest point of the cellar) as compared to just over 17' last year.

If a split system can bring it down to 15' - 16', I would be happier and your information on product and cost is interesting. I could be thinking it is time to upgrade.

Cheers

Allan

Duncan wrote:The only problem is that while the external unit switches off when not required, the internal fan keeps going. In order to fix this I'm going to have to get it wired via a socket and plug it in via a timer switch as I don't want to run it 24x7.

If you could find a unit that switches off entirely when it reaches temperature, I'd go for that. But just try finding someone who knows their stuff

My Fujitsu internal unit has been running for 80 percent of the time for 12 years now, only turned off "between seasons". It slows down to a gentle flow as it uses that to monitor the temp and it's good for keeping the temp even through the cellar too.

For a unit that turns off the internal unit, our newish Daikin in the rest of the house seem to go silent whe the temp is reached, but they are inverter models so the external one may be still ticking over, I haven't checked.

woodwardbrett wrote:Hi folks,

Ok So its about time to invest in a cooling unit for my cellar. Noticing that I had already spent about $1500 this financial year on wine it hit it home that I need to protect my investment.

So...our cellar is 3mW x 8mL x 2mH(Approx) so say approx 48m3.

I want to add a cooling unit (say a split system) to this room to keep the room at a nice constant temp.

I am after:

- What brand?
- What size?
- good energy consumption......got to keep that electricity bill down
- Will I need an over riding thermostat etc to monitor and run the unit???
- where should I buy such a unit??? Any good places in the Newcastle region???

Any help would be great.

Cheers, Brett

P.S. Yes I searched the forum for this but didnt bring up anything too handy.

Duncan makes some good points, the temp range is important, but although my Fujitsu unit can only be set to 18C for cooling, my cellar sits between 16-17C in summer except on very sustained hot spells and 15-16 most of the winter. Given that performance I've never bothered with looking at replacing the thermostat with a more flexible/accurate item. Most of my wine is drunk within 10 years, only about 10 percent is kept longer than that.

Unless you have very good insulation the size of aircon you mention above may not be big enough for 48m3. My cellar is about 41m3 and my a/c is 2.75Kw, it struggles a bit in the very hot spells and I will get a more powerul one if/when this dies, it's been running most of the time for nearly 12 years now. http://redbigot.info/Cellar/cellar1.html

I have never bothered to work out the cost of the extra electricity, there was no alternative to having a/c in my case, my future drinking enjoyment is worth whatever the cost is.

Hi Brett

Living in Adelaide, in a fibro home with 2 external walls to the cellar (like you), paranoia is alive and well in my corner of the kitchen. Like Brian (who lives in Canberra by the way where it only gets to 18 degrees in summer!) the value of the investment in terms of future wine drinking pleasure far outweighs the cost of the unit and running costs. Many a/conds in this climate will struggle to reach 16 degrees in the height of summer - although you might be better off with your thicker walls - so I went with a Kirby split system refrigeration unit. It cost around $3,500, but the peace of mind it brings is priceless!

Cheers,
John

Mandingo wrote:... Like Brian (who lives in Canberra by the way where it only gets to 18 degrees in summer!) ...

\
Ha, ha.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/ ... _All.shtml

Have a look at October to April.

I need the reverse cycle a/c in winter too otherwise the wine would sit at about 8-10C and take an age to warm up when brought out for drinking.

Okay Brian - you win.......again!

Dear Brett

Best of luck, old son - it's not an easy task you have.

I spent a good deal of time talking to Laurie at Cellar Solutions in Sydney about something similar to what you're going through and also Tony Kitchener at Kitchener wine cabinets.

There are a number of serious considerations that you need to take into account to maximise the effect of your cellar.

To start with you have a large cellar and insulating and airconditioning such a space will be expensive (is it possible to section off some of it? - particularly the part that is against the western wall) - I say this because many aircon units will not effectively work with more than a 20 degree variance in temp (i.e, if its 35 degrees or above where the air is being pulled from - your max cooling may only be to about 20 degrees anyway after inefficiencies are taken into consideration).

The next thing to be aware of is humidity - most aircons will dry out the air below 50% humidity (the min needed to keep corks from drying out) - I'm not sure that putting pots of water in the cellar or bringing the water back in are going to work. You can avoid this by buying a Fondis or WhisperKool aircon unit which are designed specifically for cellaring but they may cost you many thousands. Buying a humidifier may help but you need to plumb the water in.

The next thing to consider is vibration - most stand alone aircon units bang around but a split system may let you get away with it.

However very few aircons will reduce room temps below 18 degrees and if you want your better wines to last then 15 degrees will be more efficacious.

I hope this is helpful

Regards

Luke

Luke W wrote:The next thing to be aware of is humidity - most aircons will dry out the air below 50% humidity (the min needed to keep corks from drying out) - I'm not sure that putting pots of water in the cellar or bringing the water back in are going to work. You can avoid this by buying a Fondis or WhisperKool aircon unit which are designed specifically for cellaring but they may cost you many thousands. Buying a humidifier may help but you need to plumb the water in.

Buckets of water with towel wicks never worked for me. My split a/c drops humidity down to around 50% at times, but I have three rows of bricks on the outer curved wall that are below the damp course and below the outside ground level, this seems to add to the humidity, especially when it rains outside.

My solution was to buy a mobile evaporative cooler and run it in the cellar when humidity gets too low, it bumps it up by 10-15%, but I didn't run it at all last summer.

Two comments on humidity, with bottles lying on their side I don't think being down around 50%-60% is a problem for 10-12 years cellaring like most of my wines. The most dry corks I've had on 10-15yo reds have been the crappy Penfolds ones and everyone has those.

And for screwcapped wines of course it doesn't matter at all.

I think I shall go for a split system air con system.

Insulation in the walls and ceiling is good and once the outside walls are shaded that should be a big advantage.

If I can get the room down to 16-18 deg constant I will be happy. This should see most wines last 10+ years and for anything special I have in small volumes they can live in my 2 small (24 bottle) wine fridges that I also have in my cellar.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, keep it coming.

Cheers, Brett

I've had a different experience to LukeW and others in regards to humidity.

With a 'through the wall' refrigerated airconditioner, and no moisture supplements at all, I've not been able to get the cellar under 70% humidity. And this has been in two different locations (I took it with me when I moved house).

Cheers

Allan

I can not complain about my fondis unit. 14 degrees and 70% humidty year round in brisbane

graham wrote:I can not complain about my fondis unit. 14 degrees and 70% humidty year round in brisbane

Graham what did the Fondis uni set you back??? And where did you source it from??

Cheers, Brett

Fondis purchased from Cellar Solutions 02 9948 6347
cost $3500

[quote="woodwardbrett"]Hi folks,

why bother with it at all
wine is fine if kept at a cont temp, with no sudden rises
I use a fan on a thermostat just to circ air
works well
cellar at 19 -22 over summer in adelaide double brick construct.
Cheers
Redman

If only there was a variation in temp like that in Brissy.
Winter down to 13 and summer up to high 30's low 40's....not ideal cellaring conditions.
Graham

Redman wrote:Hi folks,
why bother with it at all
wine is fine if kept at a cont temp, with no sudden rises
I use a fan on a thermostat just to circ air
works well
cellar at 19 -22 over summer in adelaide double brick construct.
Cheers
Redman

Because the temp here can vary dramatically. Can get up to 40 deg+ in summer and with the cellar having a western facing wall it can heat up in there very easily.

Even if I shade the walls constant temps of 30+ degs outside during the heat of summer allows the cellar to rise in temp to way above where it really should be.

This on set of hot temps has seen a number of bottles leaking and making a nice mess of the cellar floor.

I also need to invest in some good rodent control...damn rats like eating capsules and corks. Bastards

woodwardbrett wrote:

Redman wrote:Hi folks,
why bother with it at all
wine is fine if kept at a cont temp, with no sudden rises
I use a fan on a thermostat just to circ air
works well
cellar at 19 -22 over summer in adelaide double brick construct.
Cheers
Redman

Because the temp here can vary dramatically. Can get up to 40 deg+ in summer and with the cellar having a western facing wall it can heat up in there very easily.

Even if I shade the walls constant temps of 30+ degs outside during the heat of summer allows the cellar to rise in temp to way above where it really should be.

This on set of hot temps has seen a number of bottles leaking and making a nice mess of the cellar floor.

I also need to invest in some good rodent control...damn rats like eating capsules and corks. Bastards

Cat

cheers

Carl

So found a 2.5kw mitsubishi unit for $799 today ($999 RRP) at the local good guys store. The sales guy indicated this price can come down to say $750 or lower.

The model is MSZ-GA25VA.

Hoepfully should be able to get the cost of installation down to a reasonable price if I mount the uni etc before hand and drill all the appropriate holes etc. Also have a leco mate that can do the power side of things.

I think for the size of the cellar a unit like this should be able to keep it fairly constant (say 17-18 deg) during the summer period. Which is going to dramatically increase the efficiency of the cellar.

Any comments??

woodwardbrett wrote:So found a 2.5kw mitsubishi unit for $799 today ($999 RRP) at the local good guys store. The sales guy indicated this price can come down to say $750 or lower.

The model is MSZ-GA25VA.

Hoepfully should be able to get the cost of installation down to a reasonable price if I mount the uni etc before hand and drill all the appropriate holes etc. Also have a leco mate that can do the power side of things.

I think for the size of the cellar a unit like this should be able to keep it fairly constant (say 17-18 deg) during the summer period. Which is going to dramatically increase the efficiency of the cellar.

Any comments??

Sounds like your on a winner!!! I installed a daikin air conditioner 5 years ago and its Brilliant I leave it on all year round and find it does a great job , Also my son is a fridgie (in the trade) and he said what you are buying is excellent and as another possibility Panasonic make a good quality split as well

Regards Dazza

woodwardbrett wrote:Hoepfully should be able to get the cost of installation down to a reasonable price if I mount the uni etc before hand and drill all the appropriate holes etc. Also have a leco mate that can do the power side of things.

Try to place the external unit on the wall that gets the least sun. I've found with double brick walls it takes a while for the heat to work through, so the unit actually runs a fair bit at night as the heat continues to hit the cellar, so that helps a bit with efficiency of cooling.

Red Bigot wrote:

woodwardbrett wrote:Hoepfully should be able to get the cost of installation down to a reasonable price if I mount the uni etc before hand and drill all the appropriate holes etc. Also have a leco mate that can do the power side of things.

Try to place the external unit on the wall that gets the least sun. I've found with double brick walls it takes a while for the heat to work through, so the unit actually runs a fair bit at night as the heat continues to hit the cellar, so that helps a bit with efficiency of cooling.

Both walls get about equal sun. However the wall that I am going to put the external uni on is the same wall that I have a shade cloth on. I will have the uni behind the shade cloth to keep it cool.

I've got a unique setup which seems to be working well in a bit of strange way. My cellar is made up by dividing one side of a rumpus room which is semi underground. So it has two external walls one facing south which is always cool other facing east which gets good sun but it is very short around a meter. Out of the two internal walls, short one faces the ground, long one faces the rest of the rumpus room, on this wall I installed a small window A/C unit (0.5 HP) and insulated the cellar section with insulation blankets they use for attic cavities. Without A/C running, during hottest days in Sydney (35 C+), the rumpus room goes up to 22-23 C and the cellar 20 -21 C. With A/C on, cellar goes down to 15-16 C and the rumpus room 26-27 C. Now comes the strange part. The humidity is around 55-60 % with A/C off and 75-80 % when on. I have no idea why humidity goes higher when the A/C is on. I run the A/C generally from mid October to the end of March depending on how the weather is doing. Other times the cellar itself hovers around 15 C and going down to 13-14 C if the weather gets really cold for a while during winter.

ufo wrote:Now comes the strange part. The humidity is around 55-60 % with A/C off and 75-80 % when on. I have no idea why humidity goes higher when the A/C is on. I run the A/C generally from mid October to the end of March depending on how the weather is doing. Other times the cellar itself hovers around 15 C and going down to 13-14 C if the weather gets really cold for a while during winter.

Is the unit drawing air from outside or just re-cycling internal air? If it's drawing external air then the moist outside air may not lose enough moisture during cooling and increase the humidity inside.

Red Bigot wrote:

ufo wrote:Now comes the strange part. The humidity is around 55-60 % with A/C off and 75-80 % when on. I have no idea why humidity goes higher when the A/C is on. I run the A/C generally from mid October to the end of March depending on how the weather is doing. Other times the cellar itself hovers around 15 C and going down to 13-14 C if the weather gets really cold for a while during winter.

Is the unit drawing air from outside or just re-cycling internal air? If it's drawing external air then the moist outside air may not lose enough moisture during cooling and increase the humidity inside.

It is just re-cycling internal air. My guess is it is because outside space for the A/C unit is actually another room. So instead of doing the heat exchange with open air, it is exchanging the heat with another internal limited space and is not able to get rid of the moisture. But still not 100 % sure.

More advice:
Either get the sparky to install a socket that the A/C is plugged into (depening on the unit, they may not do this) so that you can plug in your own timer switch.
OR
Have them install a timer next to the circuit breaker for the a/c. This is what I've just done, though obviously cheaper if I'd done it straight away. Here's the gizmo he installed: http://www.luconda.com/artikeldetails/27/20/01/2592130-1-Hager-EH011.html though I'm sure there are others. It depends on how accessible your fuse box is - I don't know how often I'll change the settings.
Or you can just leave it on all the time

Redman wrote: Hi folks,

why bother with it at all
wine is fine if kept at a cont temp, with no sudden rises
I use a fan on a thermostat just to circ air
works well
cellar at 19 -22 over summer in adelaide double brick construct.
Cheers
Redman

Perhaps because the lower the temp the less the risk of brett becoming florid, and other chemical reactions are also slower allowing slower aging of the wine (or perhaps I should say reducing the possibility of premature aging).