The Auswine Forum

This question has been bugging me for a while now ...

Grange ages ... well ... indeed magnificently. I think it's generally agreed great vintages will do 30-40 years and bear more in common with a great Bordeaux than a shiraz ...
Why is Grange the only Australian wine that can do this? What specific factors contribute to this and why has no-one been able to consistently reproduce them in Oz?

It seems to me that there are enough ex-Grange grapes out there these days and the odd ex-Grange winemaker? Is it that no-one can make another Grange, that it's commercially expensive to do so, or that there is some other answer that I'm missing? Or possibly do Australians post Max Schubert lack the ambition?

This is not a stir ... Bordeaux has a series of acknowledged First Growths ... why does Australia have one (okay maybe two, just, with HOG)?

I'm kind of hoping John Duval or Don Ditter will pop in and let us know but as that's unlikely I'll ask the forum.

Your views?

There are a number of wines that will age as well as Grange. They're just not as widely publicised. Penfolds has the big brand and spends more money on marketing, it's really that simple.

The other thing is that many wines are made to be drunk immediately because that's when most wine is drunk.

It presumably also has something to do with the amount of time Aus wines have been around. To demonstrate reliable aging for 30-40 years you need to have had a recognised brand for 40-50 years.

In France some of the top chateau have been making wine since the 1300's and most since the 1700's. They had a good 100 years of proven history when they classified them in 1855. They also made their reputation making wines a very hard tannic structure which gave them longevity - as Chris points out most wine is made differently these days.

Another thought - I'm constantly impressed with how often people post here saying they've just drank such-and-such "ordinary" wine they found skulking in the back of their cellar from many years ago, and how its drinking well to their surprise.

I'm interested to know what wines will then ... consistently ... last and indeed improve like Grange.

Wendouree, Henschke perhaps. I can't see a great many ... interested in educated opinions on more recent wines / wineries which may make wines built to improve.

good vintages of cullen DM are supposed to last a fair chunk of time as are other penfolds icons like 707 and st henri... and what about moss wood cab?

Many wines made here age gracefully for many years, and while maybe not the 40 years you talk about, most of them aren't $400+ a bottle.

I live in Perth, and there is an excellent bottleshop called La Vigna. They have loads of back vintage red and white wine. I have had many wines that you would pick up for between $15-20 now, that say drink now or over the next four years, but were at least ten and in some case 15+ years old and were very drinkable.

What has really surprised me is how well some Aussie pinot ages, two years ago I had a 1987 Rosemount pinot from the Hunter of all places and it was superb, I also had a 1993 Wignalls from WA's Great Southern region at Christmas and it was great. I also recently had a 1991 Tim Adams Shiraz (his first vintage apparently) and that was still drinking well.

Patience and a little understanding of older wine is not common among many wine drinkers here, and so there is little focus on the ageing ability of much Aussie wine, but it doesn't mean they don't.

Isn't Bordeaux a region that produces primarily cabernet sauvignon-based wines? Last time I looked, Grange is a shiraz/syrah-based wine (in some vintages made 100% from shiraz). To me, that makes it more comparable to Rhone syrahs.

daz

Daryl Douglas wrote:Isn't Bordeaux a region that produces primarily cabernet sauvignon-based wines? Last time I looked, Grange is a shiraz/syrah-based wine (in some vintages made 100% from shiraz). To me, that makes it more comparable to Rhone syrahs.

daz

Well Grange often has 3-5% Cabernet but more for structureal than aging reasons! I compared Grange to Bordeaux in terms of age-ability, obviously not style. Although fully mature it is reputed to be very Bordeaux-like indeed. The fact that Grange ages and improves as well as or better than most Northern Rhone Syrah-based wines, even top Hermitage, only makes it more remarkable ... not less remarkable imo.

Is there a recipe for Grange, or can we expect top (say) Torbrecks, Kaesler Old Bastard, Amon Ras also to improve for a similar period and look like a 2002 Grange given 30 years? I thought I might get some technical insignt into what might be done differently in Grange ... grape selection, tannin management, oak, terroir, magic pixie-dust etc

Jay60A wrote:I'm interested to know what wines will then ... consistently ... last and indeed improve like Grange.

Wendouree, Henschke perhaps. I can't see a great many ... interested in educated opinions on more recent wines / wineries which may make wines built to improve.

By reputation, Tim got it right with Cullen but I've yet to try one that's aged more than 5-6 years. From TNs I've seen 20 years+ may stretch the flagship cab merl, the wine Tim was presumably referring to. The vagaries of cork are a worry with older Cullens I think because I've had some concerns with some more recent wines.

So now I'm back to Tahbilk . If you missed my posts in which I've previously made reference, late last year and/or early this year, I had a couple of bottles of Tahbilk Cab 1981 that was very pleasant drinking indeed and a 1986 shiraz that was even better. I've also had a few 1860s vines at 10-15 y.o. that had plenty of time ahead of them. Although Tahbilk's vintage chart may seem to exaggerate the cellaring potential of it's wines I think it's fairly accurate. These days I very rarely drink $50+ wines so haven't tried the Eric Stephens Purbrick Cabernet 02 nor it's partner ESP Shiraz 02 but at least 20 years is pretty much a given for them. Sorely tempted to punish the plastic to get a current Chairmans Selection that includes a bottle of each just to taste them and have a bottle of each for down the track.

If you like Hunter Valley reds, apparently some of them can cellar for many years.

Cheers

daz

Tough question to answer, as it opens up a whole new set of questions and arguments...

One of the keys to the success of Grange has to be stability - after a rocky start it established itself at the top of the tree fairly early on, and despite continual changes in corporate ownership it's managed to maintain the majority it's key resources (material and human) over an incredibly long period of time. Sure, they have lost access to some vineyards and personnel over the years, but it's still only ever had four chief winemakers and continued to have access to the best it's corporate masters could provide because it's always been regarded as the jewel in the crown. The same record of longevity could probably also be said for St Henri, Bin 707 and Bin 389, although nowhere near the same level of prestige/demand here and overseas. It's a record that's been established now for 42-57 years, but that said it's also past history...

The shades of grey creep in with the following questions - are the latest wines as good as these previous vintages that have established this bloodline, and are there genuine alternatives at the same level of quality/price that will age as long?

If you have a look at the list from the old Winepros' archive of James Halliday's Classic Wines last updated in 2002 (you need to subscribe to see, but it's free), there are plenty of other wines from a very wide range of styles that have had a similar track record of cellaring (not many 40+ years, but some are well on the way). Henschke HOG is the only one that commands similar levels of demand and a super premium price to match, but I'd argue that some on the list (like De Bortoli Noble One and Yalumba Signature) have a flawless, very long cellaring history and are grossly undervalued, while Wynns John Riddoch prior to the vineyard problems after 1998 had massive potential (and perhaps a good example of what I mean about stability).

Some of the younger bucks are promising, but it's still too early to tell - a recent vertical of Torbreck Run Rig by Campbell Mattinson sounded very impressive, but that's less than 20 years history. Jim Barry's Armagh, St Hallett Old Block & Grant Burge Meshach would be about the closest potential comparative successors, but opinions are mixed - Grange is still considered the ultimate benchmark. It got to the top and established a niche very early on both here and overseas, and remains the tallest poppy to either be cut down or outgrown by these other suitors. Time will tell.

Cheers,
Ian

Now that I think about it, I think the simple answer is one word: history.

Grange and Hill of Grace have a 50-odd year history, while many of today's Aussie superstars do not. Conversely, many of the wines made 50-60 years ago are not produced today (e.g. Woodleys Treasure Chest). so comparisons are difficult with French First Growths, where their classification system is nearly 100 years older than the first Grange.

However, a couple of historical factors may level the playing field a little:

Phylloxera hit Australia and Europe late in the 19th century, so the European emphasis on old vines can only date back so far.

Australia introduced stainless steel tanks, and temperature control, as a response to Aussie conditions. The Europeans have adopted some of the technological improvements the 'New World' has come up with, in an attempt to be competitive at the lower end of the market. Some of the top-end (i.e. ageworthy) wines have also benefited from our technology.

I believe that technology (and possibly global warming) will reduce the difference in ageing potential between top European and top "New World" wines in the future. There are still things to be learnt from French terrior, as there are from New World science - hopefully both will benefit wine for my kids (who I am convinced will have creditable palates). In the meantime, the two Granges (1986 and 1990) I have in my cellar will be consumed within my lifetime

[quote "By reputation, Tim got it right with Cullen but I've yet to try one that's aged more than 5-6 years. From TNs I've seen 20 years+ may stretch the flagship cab merl, the wine Tim was presumably referring to. The vagaries of cork are a worry with older Cullens I think because I've had some concerns with some more recent wines.

So now I'm back to Tahbilk . Daz]

Daz, I can understand your Tahbilk fetish, having just had a 1998 Cabernet (not especially varietal, but enjoyable for the measly price tag); however, I wanted to pick up on your Cullen reference. I have to agree, from experience that Margaret River reds really do not go the distance, and I would include Moss Wood, Cullen and a few others in this category. They are medium term cellaring propositions (and I think they benefit from 5-7 years) but fall over quite quickly after that. I have had the embarassing experience of serving a 9 y.o Moss Wood to Margaret River industry friends, and getting a 'ho hum, it's past it" response - and it was. And it's not the only bottle, I'm afraid - Cullens have been borderline on occasion, too - although when they're good, they're fabulous! The 2004 and 2006 I have in the cellar are screwcap, and I've had several debates with their (now-ex) vineyard manager on the pros and cons of this.....

While we're on the subject, I have a similar difficulty with ANY aged wooded Chardonnay, but this is also a Margaret River specialty. The same night I served the 9 y.o. Moss Wood Cab, we poured a couple of 8 y.o Pierro Chardonnays down the sink. Not corked, just past it. I'd be interested to hear opinions on the ageworthiness of Aussie Chardonnay, and I think I will start a new thread to do so.

Cheers

Allan

n4sir wrote:... while Wynns John Riddoch prior to the vineyard problems after 1998 had massive potential (and perhaps a good example of what I mean about stability).

Ian - do you think the post-03 (post rejuvinification) JRs will last and develope like the old style ones did e.g. 82/86/90/96 etc?

I LIKE wines like this that more or less require you to tuck them away for a couple of decades ... "old skool" classics ...

Cheers -- Jay

Jay60A wrote:

n4sir wrote:... while Wynns John Riddoch prior to the vineyard problems after 1998 had massive potential (and perhaps a good example of what I mean about stability).

Ian - do you think the post-03 (post rejuvinification) JRs will last and develope like the old style ones did e.g. 82/86/90/96 etc?

I LIKE wines like this that more or less require you to tuck them away for a couple of decades ... "old skool" classics ...

Cheers -- Jay

The short answer (and this is just my opinion) - No.

I've heard from outside sources that the drastic vineyard measures undertaken by Wynn's Coonawarra Estate will take many more years to truly come to fruition. The immediate improvement and reappearance of John Riddoch & Michael has come not from these vineyards, but from fruit obtained from other Coonawarra sources in the Fosters empire - it explains the ripeness profile of the latest wines which fly in the face of comments by Sue Hodder to Campbell Mattinson a few years ago.

The last couple of vintages have been good, but I don't see echoes of the great run of John Riddoch & Michaels of the '90s. Again I stress, this is my opinion only.

Cheers,
Ian

Waiters Friend wrote:[quote "By reputation, Tim got it right with Cullen but I've yet to try one that's aged more than 5-6 years. From TNs I've seen 20 years+ may stretch the flagship cab merl, the wine Tim was presumably referring to. The vagaries of cork are a worry with older Cullens I think because I've had some concerns with some more recent wines.

So now I'm back to Tahbilk . Daz]

Daz, I can understand your Tahbilk fetish, having just had a 1998 Cabernet (not especially varietal, but enjoyable for the measly price tag); however, I wanted to pick up on your Cullen reference. I have to agree, from experience that Margaret River reds really do not go the distance, and I would include Moss Wood, Cullen and a few others in this category. They are medium term cellaring propositions (and I think they benefit from 5-7 years) but fall over quite quickly after that. I have had the embarassing experience of serving a 9 y.o Moss Wood to Margaret River industry friends, and getting a 'ho hum, it's past it" response - and it was. And it's not the only bottle, I'm afraid - Cullens have been borderline on occasion, too - although when they're good, they're fabulous! The 2004 and 2006 I have in the cellar are screwcap, and I've had several debates with their (now-ex) vineyard manager on the pros and cons of this.....

While we're on the subject, I have a similar difficulty with ANY aged wooded Chardonnay, but this is also a Margaret River specialty. The same night I served the 9 y.o. Moss Wood Cab, we poured a couple of 8 y.o Pierro Chardonnays down the sink. Not corked, just past it. I'd be interested to hear opinions on the ageworthiness of Aussie Chardonnay, and I think I will start a new thread to do so.

Cheers

Allan

Allan, thanks for the illuminating discourse. But I am hoping the couple of cork-sealed (that's a worry) bottles of each of the 99 and 01 Cullen cab/merl I still have stashed will go 10-15 years. I may have a look at one of the 99s in the last trimester of next year. At least the couple of 04s are screwcapped.

I've had a few Tahbilks that have been TCA affected. Hopefully, my limited number of Reserves, 1860s Vines and the replacement shiraz 1986 will be unaffected by TCA. But the latter bottle's cork, after removal of the capsule, doesn't look promising. There's a bit of mould at the top and the cork beneath looks rather sodden.

Cheers

daz

Last year I had the pleasure of a 1978or9 (can't remember!) Cullen cabernet that my old man had lying around. It was superb and looked more like a 5 year old cab, smelt of all things Margaret river - eucalypt, mint, red and black fruits, and still had a lot of primary fruit flavour and lovely smooth tannins and excellent length.

Have also had a 1983 Leeuwin Art series Chard in recent years had probably peaked but certainly wasn't passed it.

I don't have much experience of aged Margaret River wine, or any significantly aged wine for that matter, but my limited experience is at odds with some experiences mentioned above.

I did say I've never tried a Cullen c/m older than about 5 years or so. Younger than that the tannins are challenging to say the least - had a number of young 99s and 01s. The 5yo was a 2000 and after several hours breathing it was still too young. But it had remarkable length on the finish with classic varietal fruit characters throughout.

Is that clear now?

daz

n4sir wrote:I've heard from outside sources that the drastic vineyard measures undertaken by Wynn's Coonawarra Estate will take many more years to truly come to fruition. The immediate improvement and reappearance of John Riddoch & Michael has come not from these vineyards, but from fruit obtained from other Coonawarra sources in the Fosters empire - it explains the ripeness profile of the latest wines which fly in the face of comments by Sue Hodder to Campbell Mattinson a few years ago.

The last couple of vintages have been good, but I don't see echoes of the great run of John Riddoch & Michaels of the '90s. Again I stress, this is my opinion only.

Cheers,
Ian

Thanks, that's really interesting and somehow does not surprise me if true. TNs for the recent JRs have not inspired me to buy ... sounds like any other Coonawarra premium Cabernet now ... great wine but not individual.

Sounds like I'll try and stock up on some 1994 and 1996 JRs. Can be had quite cheap sometimes.

Jay - I've had both the 94 and 96 JR in the past few weeks. Both are underwhelming. I think the Wynns ship went off course after the 91 vintage. I hope they get it back soon.

Mike

Hi Jay,

I hope England is treating you well.

I thought it worthwhile replying to this thread as I don't agree with many of the comments made here.

For what it is worth, I find Grange to be a truly boring wine. Also, I have not had any vintage since 1999, so I can't comment on recent releases.

Now, having said that, I don't believe that marketing has much at all to do with Grange's greatness. Having had many vintages of Grange and also having had many of the world's greatest wines, Grange stands up to the world's best. It is our "greatest" wine, at least "on average" (even though I don't feel the need to buy it).

Answering your question of why it is so great and why it ages so well year in, year out, is due in my mind to two reasons that for some reason have not been mentioned:

1) Many Sources of Extreme Quality: Grange is made from the fruit of some of the greatest vines (in terms of care, quality and cost) in South Australia - not from one particular vineyard like Australia's other great wines, but from whichever vineyards are great in a particular year. The vines that Penfolds have to chose from are amazing. It is only due to this can Penfolds achieve its consistency. Many of our other great wines have been mentioned here: HOG, Cullen, Moss Wood, Lindemans (Ben Ean), etc. In a specific year these wines can be as good or better than Grange, but they can't achieve consistency like Grange. For what it is worth, I have an examples of these above wines that require at least 20 years and I have had some of these wines that would struggle to improve past 10 years. Yet when I drink Grange, I don't enjoy drinking them unless they are at least 20 years old (or on release for some fun!) and some truly need 30+ years to be anywhere near their peak.

2) Recipe: Grange is made to a recipe, a recipe that demands the highest quality grapes to be successful - see point 1. Grange has the winemaking works thrown at it. It is bolstered with tannins, acid and oak in generous proportions, but it has the sheer fruit quality to handle it. Grange is the original and best "Big and Balanced Brute".

And for what it is worth, Max Schubert was inspired by Bordeaux in making Grange.

Happy to be corrected on any of the above or told that I have no idea.

Kind regards,
Adair

I think Adair has pretty much nailed this. And the two most important points are that Schubert wanted Grange to be a wine in the mold of great Bordeaux but the amount of quality Cabernet available was not sufficient. Second it truly is the original "Big and Balanced Brute". Remember that the earliest vintages were described by some critics as a good port even though the alcohol levels were only around 13%.

I've not had a lot of Grange, probably less than a dozen vintages and then only a couple that were 20 years or so old. But I haven't had any for a good 10 years - just before the Wine Spectator made it wine of the year and the price went through the roof over here. I never found the wine boring but in blind tastings I seemed to find 707 more to my taste. That may be because I found young Grange quite hard to appreciate and not because of any Bordeaux-like character but because it was (is) a fruit monster.

The only Penfolds wine in my cellar is St Henri and it is interesting to note that St Henri was made by John Davoren to be a more elegant contrast to Schubert's Grange. But as time has passed Grange has completely overshadowed St Henri which has fallen further down the ladder as the 707 and RWT wines were produced. St Henri is a true blend of Shiraz grapes from many regions of SA and there can be bit of Cabernet thrown in as well. Apart from wimpy corks I've found St Henri will last a good couple of decades and a recent vertical tasting in the Wine Spectator of St Henri back to 1956 bears that out.

The only thing that appears not to have been commented upon is the role of the winemaker. Grange would never have existed without Schubert. Other Grange makers Groom and Duval have their names on Aussie Shiraz. Early days yet for both but the Duval wines might bear looking at in terms of wines that might go a decade or two.

Mike

Jay60A wrote:Is there a recipe for Grange, or can we expect top (say) Torbrecks, Kaesler Old Bastard, Amon Ras also to improve for a similar period and look like a 2002 Grange given 30 years? I thought I might get some technical insignt into what might be done differently in Grange ... grape selection, tannin management, oak, terroir, magic pixie-dust etc

Kaesler CD-Only Alte Reben and Patel look like they would cellar for 20-30 years, probably longer-lived than the Old Bastard.

Why is Grange the only Australian wine that can do this? It is not. There are the low oak styles like 71 and 76 St Henri that are still kicking along. From the Hunter the brutish Lindemans Bin 3110 and lighter 3100 are magnificent - in their prime. Then medium bodied wines from O'Shea in the 50's are still on song, as is the 65 Tulloch Private bin and even humble Mount Pleasant Phillip - 65 and 67 still lovely. Plenty of Australian wines will go plenty of time.
GW

Gary W wrote:Why is Grange the only Australian wine that can do this? It is not... Plenty of Australian wines will go plenty of time.
GW

... but can any maker "consistently reproduce" wines that can do this? (vintage after vintage)
Thinking about this, I reckon the only other producer who can do this consistently is Tyrrell's... and it is not a red wine. I have never had a bad Vat 1 unless its showing could be reasonably explained by faulty cork!? Just thought I would throw that out there!

Adair

Red Bigot wrote:

Jay60A wrote:Is there a recipe for Grange, or can we expect top (say) Torbrecks, Kaesler Old Bastard, Amon Ras also to improve for a similar period and look like a 2002 Grange given 30 years? I thought I might get some technical insignt into what might be done differently in Grange ... grape selection, tannin management, oak, terroir, magic pixie-dust etc

Kaesler CD-Only Alte Reben and Patel look like they would cellar for 20-30 years, probably longer-lived than the Old Bastard.

FWIW, I "think I" remember Reid saying that the Old Bastard is only really mean to be a 5 year wine, and that the Old Vine was suited more to aging.
Adair

Adair wrote:

Red Bigot wrote:

Jay60A wrote:Is there a recipe for Grange, or can we expect top (say) Torbrecks, Kaesler Old Bastard, Amon Ras also to improve for a similar period and look like a 2002 Grange given 30 years? I thought I might get some technical insignt into what might be done differently in Grange ... grape selection, tannin management, oak, terroir, magic pixie-dust etc

Kaesler CD-Only Alte Reben and Patel look like they would cellar for 20-30 years, probably longer-lived than the Old Bastard.

FWIW, I "think I" remember Reid saying that the Old Bastard is only really mean to be a 5 year wine, and that the Old Vine was suited more to aging.
Adair

Reid told me this as well. It is meant to be big, flashy and showy and is essentially in the portfolio to garner Parker Points hence the rest of the wines get the trickle down effect.

GW[/quote]... but can any maker "consistently reproduce" wines that can do this? (vintage after vintage)
Thinking about this, I reckon the only other producer who can do this consistently is Tyrrell's... and it is not a red wine. I have never had a bad Vat 1 unless its showing could be reasonably explained by faulty cork!? Just thought I would throw that out there!

Adair[/quote]

Thank you Adair! Especially given the original 'sunshine in a bottle' message that Australia sold to the world, it is not surprising that Oz can produce a white to match the long-term reds. Hence the Penfolds trials, which started with Semillon. Our Chardonnay is not going to do it.

Waiters Friend wrote:GW

... but can any maker "consistently reproduce" wines that can do this? (vintage after vintage)
Thinking about this, I reckon the only other producer who can do this consistently is Tyrrell's... and it is not a red wine. I have never had a bad Vat 1 unless its showing could be reasonably explained by faulty cork!? Just thought I would throw that out there!

Adair

Thank you Adair! Especially given the original 'sunshine in a bottle' message that Australia sold to the world, it is not surprising that Oz can produce a white to match the long-term reds. Hence the Penfolds trials, which started with Semillon. Our Chardonnay is not going to do it.

VAT 1 is a great example of unmatched terroir (Hunter and Semillon). No doubt. Actually it would have been *far* more interesting for Penfolds to produce a top Semillon as the "White Grange".

The general consensus of the forum appears to be that Grange relies on a patchwork-quilt of the highest quality grapes (mainly shiraz) across SA (mainly Barossa) at a resource (quality/volume) level which other smaller suppliers cannot match ... although certain vineyards (e.g. Torbreck, Kalleske, Kaesler) may provide similar aging quality and structure in certain years?

Adair wrote: I have never had a bad Vat 1 unless its showing could be reasonably explained by faulty cork!? Just thought I would throw that out there!
Adair

And haven't there been plenty of those!
Graeme

I had a '96 Cullen Cab Merlot on the weekend at the winery, and it was stunning, tannins fully integrated, still plenty of fruit - perfect balance and really enjoyable. Would go another 5-10 easy I reckon.