The Auswine Forum

With the release of the 1001 wines to try before you die book, it is clear flicking through that it is a mixture of well chosen labels and eye raising selections no doubt driven by the limited tastings in some areas of the contributors??

Anyway I guess we all know better and can argue why this should have been selected and that shouldnt. I shure could make those arguments with some of the kiwi wines. Begs the question though, as it is an interesting concept for those who enjoy ticking off lists

1. What would be in your dozen kiwi wines to try before you die selection?
2. What would be in your dozen aussie wines to try before you die selection?

I guess the lists should represent the countries in terms of style/ quality and perhaps even thinking of regional issues...

Love to see the lists....I will contribute mine once ive finished thinking it over.....

This is tough and so subjective/emotive.

At a rough stab, for the Aussies and not being entirely accurate in picking a dozen, I'd suggest:

- Penfolds Bin 60A 1962
- Penfolds Grange (various highlight vintages)
- Penfolds Bin 389 1996 (classic modern day wine)
- Peppermint Pattie
- some old Wynns Hermitages
- various old Maurice O Shea Hunter wines

so that's just a few and they are skewed to 'classics' really. Interesting, but very open question.

250 reads of this thread and only one contribution?? we need more opinionated people and fewer lemmings!!!

ok heres my dozen a couple of picks bracketed (i could go either way)

Ata Rangi Pinot Noir
Dry River Gewurztraminer
Dry River Pinot Gris
Kumeu River Mates Chardonnay
Neudorf Moutere Chardonnay
Fromm La Strada Spatlese Riesling
Te Mata Coleraine
Saint Clair Wairau Reserve Sauvignon Blanc
Stonyridge Larose
Craggy Range Le Sol Syrah/ Trinity Hill Homage Syrah
Villa Maria Reserve Noble Riesling
Esk Valley Terraces / Felton Road Block 5 Pinot Noir

Craig(NZ) wrote:250 reads of this thread and only one contribution?? we need more opinionated people and fewer lemmings!!!

Yes, I'm often struck by the miniscule read:posts ratio too.

I'll pitch in with my two cents. I'm splitting my kiwi list in 2, with 6 that I would like to try before I die (I've not had them) and 6 that I think would best show someone new to kiwi wine how good it can be (selected from wines I have had, each of a different variety).

Wines I would like to try before I die (unlikely to, but hey)

1965 McWilliams Cabernet Sauvignon (you gotta be curious)
1987 Stonyridge Larose
1996 Dry River Craighall Riesling Botrytis Bunch Selection
2003 Martinborough Vineyards Marie Zelie Pinot Noir
2005 Puriri Hills The Pope
1998 Esk Valley The Terraces

Wines you should try before you die (any top vintage)

Te Mata Elston Chardonnay
St Clair Wairau Reserve Sauvignon Blanc
Ata Rangi Pinot Noir
Te Mata Coleraine
Felton Road Riesling
Stonecroft Syrah

That's a difficult exercise; I didn't overlap any from each list, so its makes up one list of 12. Whether to go with Elston or Mate's chard was a toughy - I went with Elston as I think its prob more popular. I left off a few varieties as well. If I get to pick 13, I'd maybe add Dry River Pinot Gris. Syrah was tough too - I could've gone with Te Mata Bullnose, or others, but I have a soft-spot for Stonecroft and have enjoyed it very much. I'm really not in a position to suggest an aussie list, but would be very interested in the views of others.

I saw the book in the newsagent yesterday and had a very quick look. I quickly decided that it was an exercise in frustration especially if you are looking at specific vintages.

It would need more expertise than I have but I can't help but think that the number of books they would need to sell will be significantly more than the number of bottles remaining or ever made on most of the wines.

If you are going for a dozen it should be about Styles and labels, eg:
1) Penfolds Grange
2) Penfolds St Henri
3) Classic Hunter Shiraz eg Lindemans 6600
4) Classic Hunter Semillion eg great Vat 1, old Lindemans or Lovedale
5) Clare Riesling eg Old Buring, Grosset
6) Wynns Cabernet
7) Leeuwin Chardonnay
Rockford Basket Press Shiraz
9) Giaconda Chardonnay
10) Margaret River Cabernet or Cabernet Merlot eg Cullen or Moss Wood
11) Wendouree
12) Seppelt St Peters/Great Western
But they should be great examples with appropriate age

No list is perfect - first thoughts of missing are Yarra Cabs, Bass Philip Pinots, etc, etc, etc

Sure I know we read in awe of some of the dinners on the forum but many of us will be lucky to try a single bottle from the great Houses once in a life time.

Kiwi wines id like to try among the rare of the rare include

Antipodean (i reckon one day i will get the chance),

MBV zelzie (i missed one opportunity - its so rare i prob wont get a chance). Seems a little wank wank marketing dept driven but hey they made good reserves in the past so this i guess is the reincarnation of those truely great wines

Destiny Vineyards magna praemia (you better believe at $275pb i wouldnt pay for a bottle but curious as this is a classic cookie cutter template based cult wine. id pay $10 for a splash though ). All ive heard is its almost as good as stonyridge for twice the price

Fromm La Strada TBA, the rarest of the rarest and most expensive of nz sweet wines. i wonder if they will ever make another vintage?

2008 Puriri Pope. Not even in the bottle but the vintage was excellent. could it be just one of those mindblowing wines to challenge the 05???

2005 Tom. Those lucky enough to pre release taste it have said it is awesome. im curious

Pyramid Valley. Yeah i guess the hype over the last 2 years and long wait has me curious as to how good their home vineyard stuff will be. Their growers series was good without making me have kittens but still interested

I started thinking about the wines to drink before you die and then just realised I'd already drunk a fair few. The ones I have most memories about include:

1955 Grange (unbelievably fresh and exciting in 1983)
1986 Mt Mary cabernets (gorgeous and elegant)
1990 Wynns Riddoch magnum (stunningly balanced)
1976 Penfolds 707 (the highlight of a Penfolds night that included a 10 year vertical of Granges)
1994 Cape Mentelle cabernet
1994 Leeuwin Chardonnay
2000 La Testa Shiraz (massive and multi faceted)
1996 Katnook cabernet (one of the perfect Coonawarras)
Some 100 year old liqueur muscat the Mick Morris bought up to Bartlett's Barn in the early 80's that blew everyone away
1976 Grange (at a dinner with max schubert - what a wonderful old guy)
1979 Hill of Grace bought for $4 from the MiHi tavern in Ipswich in 1982 (got a 10% discount cause I bought the lot - 4 cases)
1975 Leo Buring DWT ?? Riesling

There's a dozen that were fabulous and I'd stack up against almost anything nowadays...

The dozen in my cellar that I'm looking forward to include 1996 and 2001 Granges, 1998 and 2002 707's, 1996/8 389's, about 20 vintages of Wendouree, some beautiful old Steingartens, an occasional bottle of Dom although in a blind tasting in the early 80's the group preferred Chateau Remy!

Craig(NZ) wrote:250 reads of this thread and only one contribution?? we need more opinionated people and fewer lemmings!!!

ok heres my dozen a couple of picks bracketed (i could go either way)

Ata Rangi Pinot Noir
Dry River Gewurztraminer
Dry River Pinot Gris
Kumeu River Mates Chardonnay
Neudorf Moutere Chardonnay
Fromm La Strada Spatlese Riesling
Te Mata Coleraine
Saint Clair Wairau Reserve Sauvignon Blanc
Stonyridge Larose
Craggy Range Le Sol Syrah/ Trinity Hill Homage Syrah
Villa Maria Reserve Noble Riesling
Esk Valley Terraces / Felton Road Block 5 Pinot Noir

05' Puriri POPE?!... just get rid of one of the white wines.

c

Craig(NZ) wrote:Destiny Vineyards magna praemia All ive heard is its almost as good as stonyridge for twice the price

You've no doubt seen it, but Geoff Kelly's just reviewed these - I'd never heard of 'em! LoL

When you say Antipodean - do you mean Providence? I thought the latter was supposed to be the better of these two Matakana rarities ??? If you're interested Caro's actually have some Providence at the mo! (Only $112)

yeah maybe (id rather drink it than most on that list probably) but 250 cases odd of wine from a solitary vintage doesnt make a classic unfortunately, and doesnt forge a established kiwi style. i was more looking at med-long term consistency. was aslo looking to represent many regions and varieties

i could happily include pope in the 12 kiwi rare and low production wines you should try to find, spend mega bucks and try list having said that though, it is a wine that you can still purchase no doubt because of its obscurity, below the radar nature, and of course its heavy price tag.

Another i would have liked to consider is Unison Selection but too many nz bdx(ish) styles makes an unbalanced list

When you say Antipodean - do you mean Providence? I thought the latter was supposed to be the better of these two Matakana rarities ??? If you're interested Caro's actually have some Providence at the mo! (Only $112)

Providence and Antipodean are seperate wines with a common history. I have tried Providence twice and both time outstanding. Just never had a chance to try Antipodean. It is slightly less rare than providence and you can buy it. Though its about $190 a bottle. I have friedns with links to the owners so may get a chance one day

Craig(NZ) wrote:
Destiny Vineyards magna praemia All ive heard is its almost as good as stonyridge for twice the price

You've no doubt seen it, but Geoff Kelly's just reviewed these - I'd never heard of 'em! LoL

Yeah heard of them about a year ago. check out their website (google it www.destinyvineyards.com???) if you want a feel for the culty exclusive nature. It looks to appeal to those who want something exclusive at any price. I do know a couple who have tried it. Both say good but when pressed said they preferred SRL.

I have lifted my eye brows a number of times with GK. Not sure how close our preferences are. I think im very close to Sue Courtney actually she has a good palate.

GK is a bit more eccentric i think. I cant really place what it is in terms of styles but generalising hugely I think he prefers wines that are riper and plusher than I do. (im thinking how he constantly rates highly craggy, villa, vidals, trinity hill...) I always read his work and note his opinions but i dont treat his gospel as my religion.

neither should anyone treat my gospel as theirs

If you think about the other books in the 1001 ... to try before you die, most of them are actually possible to do, so I personally think rather than concentrate on specific vintages it's probably better just to say the wine, being a reasonably accessible one.

So saying everyone should try a Grange before they die makes it a little more achievable than saying everyone should have a 1955 Grange or even a 1971 Grange these days.

Anyhoo, my 2 cents is that everyone should try a Seppelt 100 year old port before they die. I've tried a few vintages but it was the 1904 that really rocked my world.

Now after saying all the above, I do realise this is a $1000 a bottle wine however it is often available for tasting at wine expos like Wine Australia and I think you can also taste it (for an appropriate fee) at Seppelt.

I most certainly think that everyone who reads this forum should make every effort to try this wine (any vintage) before they die.

If I had to come up with a top 12 Aussies it would be in no particular order but definitely at an appropriate age rather than too young:

Seppelt 100 year old port
Grange
Mount Mary cabernets
Rockford Basket Press Shiraz
Seppelt Reserve Sparkling Shiraz (if they ever release another one)
Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay
Bass Phillip Premium Pinot Noir (I haven't tried the reserve so not sure how it compares)
Hill of Grace Shiraz
De Bortoli Noble One
Lovedale Semillon
Cullen Cabernet Savignon
And then there has to be a rare muscat. I'd possible go the Chambers rare but any of the rutherglen rares are up there.

There are lots of great wines out there, all worthy of having before I die, but my top 12 would be:

1 dozen 1996 Grange.

And to quote Djimon Hounsou, at the end of the film "Gladiator"

"... but not yet!"

Here is my list, I have not a hugely extensive history of tastings to recount, but these wine, i believe are worth trying. Definitely before you kick the proverbial.....
(any vintage)

OZ
Mt Mary Quintets/Cabernets
John Duval Plexus
John Riddoch
Pirie Sigma
Lowe Zinfandel
Robert Stein Res Cab Sav
De Bortoli Melba
Star Lane Merlot
Bay of Fires Chardonnay
W Viognier
De Bortoli Viognier
Grey Sands Pinot Gris
Bonus: Deakin Estate Sauvignon Blanc

NZ
Stonyridge Larose
Tom
Chard Farm Finla Mor
Gibbston Reserve Pinot
Rippon Pinot
Coleraine
Bullnose
Vinoptima Gewurz
Catalina Sounds Sav
Brancott Estate
Irongate
Spy Valley Pinot Gris
Bonus: White Cloud

This list is purely what I would want to drink, as enjoyment and neccesity, not as pure luxury.
Cheers,
Piers

Te Motu for the Kiwis?

Te Motu for the Kiwis?

Not a chance! How Te Motu got in the 1001 book ahead of Stonyridge Larose is anyones guess. A random brain explosion I would expect. Just stupid. Its a good wine but its not a special wine. Add to that its ego pricing and makes a bad mix for me. No where near top 12 in nz status

Te Motu is disqualified in my book because I stopped in for a tasting and got stung $20! Highway robbery. Exclusive, yes; expensive, yes; well written up in the past, yes; but I didn't actually care for the 02 I tried.

Craig(NZ) wrote:

Te Motu for the Kiwis?

Not a chance! How Te Motu got in the 1001 book ahead of Stonyridge Larose is anyones guess. A random brain explosion I would expect. Just stupid. Its a good wine but its not a special wine. Add to that its ego pricing and makes a bad mix for me. No where near top 12 in nz status

Stonyridge is green, thin and weedy. Yech. Te Motu any day of the week.

Oh and the Magna is exceptional (as was the Fromm TBA). Pyramid Valley gear will need years before showing glimpses of its best.

John #11 wrote:There are lots of great wines out there, all worthy of having before I die, but my top 12 would be:

1 dozen 1996 Grange.

And to quote Djimon Hounsou, at the end of the film "Gladiator"

"... but not yet!"

Only have one bottle, it's the only Grange I have but I most certainly will drink it before I die.

My dozen should mostly be drunk today; some of these wines must surely be frightfully fragile by now, although I've tried to pick the one's with the reputation for staying power.

Seppelt 100 Year Old Para Port 1905
Mount Pleasant Maurice O'Shea Hermitage 1945
Wynns Michael Shiraz 1955
Hardys Museum Release Vintage Port 1956
Lindemans Hunter River Burgundy (Shiraz) Bin 1590 1959
Penfolds Bin 60A Cabernet Shiraz (Coonawarra/Kalimna) 1962
Penfolds Grange Hermitage 1962
Penfolds Grange Hermitage 1963
Mildara Coonawarra Cabernet Sauvignon 1963 (Peppermint Pattie)
Lindemans Hunter River Burgundy (Shiraz) Bin 3110 1965
Penfolds Bin 7 Cabernet Shiraz (Coonawarra/Kalimna) 1967
Chambers Rare Tokay N/V

Reserve Red - Penfolds Bin 61 Cabernet Shiraz (Kalimna/Eden Valley) 1963

Now that's the reds, what about some whites?

Nice list dlo. I was thinking the 55 Michael needs to be on my list

Nice list D'lo.....I reckon mine would be pretty close to that....maybe dump the Wynns and throw in a Woodley's Treasure Chest though.

I have to agree with Max about the Stonyridge.... vastly over-rated wine IMHO.

Stonyridge is green, thin and weedy. Yech. Te Motu any day of the week.

Ouch! green, thin and weedy?? Bet Jeff didnt charge you with writing the tasting note below then????

"2005 Stonyridge Larose. Heralded by many NZ wine lovers as the first growth of the Southern Hemisphere, this wine has got all the goods and more. Its incredible colour is offset by a raft of brilliant berry, currants, and earthy mint aromas seeping from its dark confine. Intense and concentrated flavours of dark fruit abound within the groomed and incredibly well structured palate highlighting the powerful nature of this serious red wine. Harmonious cedar and vanilla ... Morespice notes sit alongside mineral and earthy flavours enhancing the great complexity of this wine and its divine tannin framework. A wine masterpiece that is enjoyable now with the potential for cellaring well in to 2022"

you would be the only person on the planet describing stonyridge larose as green. i havent tried any vintage that i felt had even a smidge of green to it. ive drunk 93,94,96,97,99,00,01,04. It is one of the ripest bdx wines in nz in my books. some vintages arent mindblowing but they arent bad. Top vintages (96,99,94) reflect its reputation

Stonyridge Larose has its bashers but ive never experienced anything to bash it over apart form maybe price. I cant understand anyone calling this green

What do you usually drink? Craig's jam fortified with spirit?? SA shiraz with 15% alc?? Your tastes will change Max, that i can guarantee - just give yourself some time

As for Te Motu, we will have to agree to disagree here, its obvious our palates are planets apart

Craig and Max - steady boys! You are both in great company because it seems that Geoff Kelly agrees with both of you.

For those interested Kelly's review of the history of Bordeaux blends in NZ will be a great read. 2005 tasting notes up so far.

Mike

Mike

Insulting each others wine tastes is just a hobby, i dont take it personally. im sure max doesnt either

i love GK's assessment of brett in that article intro and the rest of his intro. i might not agree with his tastes all the time but he does make a lot of sense in many areas

"The irony in this brett affair is that the wine-loving public couldn't give a toss, most people naturally tending to like the fragrant, savoury, and exceedingly food-friendly (even food-mimicking) characters low-level brett introduces to wine. This particularly applies to people who are familiar with and appreciative of French wine. All too often in private tastings, it is only the smart-arses who draw attention to the presence of brett, partly no doubt to display their superior / up-to-the-moment learning. C'est la vie. "

couldnt agree more

"All too often in private tastings, it is only the smart-arses who draw attention to the presence of brett, partly no doubt to display their superior / up-to-the-moment learning. C'est la vie. " Geoff kelly

I greatly appreciate and look forward to all the Geoff Kelly writes, but I had a little laugh at the above quote because, at least in my estimation, he is very sensitive to Brett.

Mike

yes agree he can be hard on technocrats while being very technocratic himself but i think he is speaking within different contexts

ie he writes academically for a certain audience and purpose. think of this as a blueprint for a house??

however the enjoyment of drinking is a seperate occassion and issue where the enjoyment of the final product should superceed academically criticising every seperate technical aspect of a wines makeup??
think of this as a glossy housing magazine??

builders and designers have need for a blueprint. house buyers have need to enjoy the final product. coarse comparison i know but i think you get the idea

My Australian list ended up being pretty similar to dlo's - it was a real tough ask to limit it to a dozen, and a lot of fine wines (quite a few from over the border) didn't quite make the ruthless final cut.

Assuming the usual rules of only one vintage of each wine apply, my 12 ultimate wines to try would be (in no particular order):

1962 Penfolds Bin 60A
1953 Penfolds Grange Hermitage
1953 Penfolds Grange Cabernet/Block 42
1965 Lindemans Bin 3110 Burgundy
1963 Mildara Coonawarra Cabernet Sauvignon (Peppermint Pattie)
1982 Wynns Coonawarra Estate John Riddoch
1990 Henschke Hill of Grace
1946 Seppelt Great Western Sparkling Burgundy
1980 Petaluma Riesling
1982 De Bortoli Noble One
1975 Hardy's Barossa Valley Vintage Port
Seppelt 100 year old Para Liqueur Tawny

Cheers,
Ian

DaveB wrote:Nice list D'lo.....I reckon mine would be pretty close to that....maybe dump the Wynns and throw in a Woodley's Treasure Chest though.

Yes, as an afterthought I tend to agree with you. But even a few minutes after I reconsidered your suggestion, I've thought of some of the very great red wines I've tried that have eminated from Margaret River (Moss Wood, Cullens, Cape Mentelle) over the years, Colin Preece's reknowned reds from Great Western, a few of Henschke's amazing earlier efforts etc .... and then you could be really picky and include the supposedly freakish 1915 Yerinberg and if you're totally pedantic you might just include the 1872 Craiglee! It's a bit like how long's a piece of string.

The really good thing about my list is that I'm going to try a pristinely-stored bottle of 1962 Grange and a clinic'd 1967 Bin 7 later this year.