Just tossing around some ideas for opinionated stories and whacked together this state of the tasman very generalised summary. On a scale of 1-10 where 1= Aussie kicks ass and 10= NZ kicks ass
Whites
Major Varieties:
Chardonnay 5. Although NZ chardonnay gets big accolades and an average kiwi chardonnay is tidier than an average aussie one, I am hugely respectful of top end Aussie chardonnays. Every top end fight ive been involved with sees the aussie ones come out on top just.
Riesling 5. A tale of two cities here. Off Dry easily goes to NZ, Dry easily goes to Aussie. I cant see much arguement with these statements. (If I didnt seperate out sweet styles NZ may take this as NZ sweet riesling is just sensational at its best)
Sauvignon Blanc 9. Fairly obvious, aussie has a couple of good labels but NZ has a flood.
Minor Varieties
Semillon 2. NZ just doesnt make a respectable semillon really but on the other hand cut the crap out of aussie and they really only have a few producers that produce superstars these days?? or am i just out of touch?? (Add sweet semillon to this and it could even be a 1 though NZ does do a couple of great semillon based sweet wines)
Gewurztraminer 7. A broadening strength for NZ especially with the latest good vintages, little experience with Aussie styles though
Pinot Gris 7. Ditto the above, the 07 vintage looks very strong and the tasteless flab buckets of the past are rare these days
Red
Major Varieties
Cabernet Sauvignon 2. NZ makes only the odd 100% cabernet, usually either from a freak vintage or badly. Aussie Whitewash
Cabernet and Merlot Blends 4. NZ makes some damn good blends, but Aussie makes more, and consistantly more convincing especially when considering qpr!
Shiraz/ Syrah 3. NZ has made huge bounds here recently, but still in its infancy with this variety. The pinnacle of these wines occassionally compete, but few on the ground of this quality for NZ. Many are a little raw and obscene
Pinot Noir 7. Its a bitch of a variety to get right, both countries produce a massive amount of average stuff. Great pinot is very rare from both countries but I think NZ makes more 'very good pinot' than aussie.
Minor Varieties
Merlot 9. NZ whips ass with 100% merlot and blends, many great even if rare labels. Love to try any Aussie contenders though as past the Irvines, Henschke etc I havent tried too many.
Other:
Sweet Wines 4. NZ makes great riesling based sweet wine but im of the opinion that Aussie still has a bit of an edge here
Sparkling Wines 4. A tight one again but perhaps it swings as I think the top tp aussie sparklers are better than the top top kiwis.
Fortified. 1. No contest, Aussie whips ass.
Lets hear some opinion here, what do you guys think??? And if this test was taken 10 years ago would NZ have done as well???
C
Wine Bledisloe Cup
Wine Bledisloe Cup
Last edited by Craig(NZ) on Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
I am a little confused with my own choices here, as I am a pretty biased Kiwi (especially when you put 'Bledisloe" in the subject), but now based in Tassie I dont have the wool completely over my eyes. 
I agree with all except for two:
Pinot Noir: I hthink it sould be more even, maybe a 5. I recently did a bracket with Gibbston Reserve 05, Rippon 05, Peregrine 05 (I know all cent. Otago) with Bass Phillip 0?, De Bortoli YV 05, Brook Eden 05 and Apsley Gorge 05. I think all these wines represent the upper spectrum of PN in the two countries, and all of them were excellent. Very different, but excellent.
Merlot: Maybe a bit pedantic, but I think more of a 6 or 7. Take the oldies like Houghton and Moss Wood and throw in some new ones like Star Lane from out at Beechworth(I believe the best SH merlot at the moment) and Delatite in the Alpine Valley.
I almost forgot sparkling. I think it should be more a 5. How could Australia compete with Lindauer Fraise
Thanks for the post.
I agree with all except for two:
Pinot Noir: I hthink it sould be more even, maybe a 5. I recently did a bracket with Gibbston Reserve 05, Rippon 05, Peregrine 05 (I know all cent. Otago) with Bass Phillip 0?, De Bortoli YV 05, Brook Eden 05 and Apsley Gorge 05. I think all these wines represent the upper spectrum of PN in the two countries, and all of them were excellent. Very different, but excellent.
Merlot: Maybe a bit pedantic, but I think more of a 6 or 7. Take the oldies like Houghton and Moss Wood and throw in some new ones like Star Lane from out at Beechworth(I believe the best SH merlot at the moment) and Delatite in the Alpine Valley.
I almost forgot sparkling. I think it should be more a 5. How could Australia compete with Lindauer Fraise
Thanks for the post.
Never enough Pinot........but now I have found shiraz
Pinot Noir: I hthink it sould be more even, maybe a 5. I recently did a bracket with Gibbston Reserve 05, Rippon 05, Peregrine 05 (I know all cent. Otago) with Bass Phillip 0?, De Bortoli YV 05, Brook Eden 05 and Apsley Gorge 05. I think all these wines represent the upper spectrum of PN in the two countries, and all of them were excellent. Very different, but excellent.
Yeah could take some guidance here as havent had too many top australians but would take a bit of convincing that it should far aussies way
Merlot: Maybe a bit pedantic, but I think more of a 6 or 7. Take the oldies like Houghton and Moss Wood and throw in some new ones like Star Lane from out at Beechworth(I believe the best SH merlot at the moment) and Delatite in the Alpine Valley.
Would take a lot more convincing to shift past an 8 for this. The detail and poise of coleraine, the complexity and finesse of puriri hills, the boldness and craft of craggy sophia, the insane richness of esk terraces, trinity hill gimblett, cj pask, selini, clearview reserve, providence, goldwater, redmetal, tom, etc etc etc. Im sure there are a few convincing aussies I havent tried but im yet to meet them. NZ produces a number of styles very well with merlot as the basis. Even the top aussies ive tried seem a little flat and dull for my liking. However the ones you mention I have not tried except the Moss Wood
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
-
Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2761
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Riesling - 3. The better NZ riesling is dead at 10 years of age, Oz stuff is at its peak. Plus, I prefer the bone dry style.
Sparkling - 2. Especially if this includes Sparkling reds. In fact, I'm not even sure if NZ has sparkling reds. Craig ?
Gewurtztraminer - 8. Haven't had a decent Aussie one in decades.
Cheers
Mike
Sparkling - 2. Especially if this includes Sparkling reds. In fact, I'm not even sure if NZ has sparkling reds. Craig ?
Gewurtztraminer - 8. Haven't had a decent Aussie one in decades.
Cheers
Mike
Riesling - 3. The better NZ riesling is dead at 10 years of age, Oz stuff is at its peak. Plus, I prefer the bone dry style.
Not sure i see the logic on the longievity thing. To me you drink a wine at peak and whenever that is so be it. Harsh call to go a 3 here!
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
Craig(NZ) wrote:Riesling - 3. The better NZ riesling is dead at 10 years of age, Oz stuff is at its peak. Plus, I prefer the bone dry style.
Not sure i see the logic on the longevity thing. To me you drink a wine at peak and whenever that is so be it. Harsh call to go a 3 here!
I agree with Craig, in fact I would have gone 6 or 7 for Riesling. I don't like the way Aussies age and a recent sample of 02's confirms this for me.
Pinot I think will swing a little towards Oz in the very near future, and - big call - Sauvignon Blanc may do the same, as Australia catches up on these varieties.
Merlot and Pinot Gris in Australia are a lost cause. There are some pleasant, generic wines and a few good Merlots.
Rhone Blends - havent seen a NZ one so this is a 1 to Australia.
In future years watch for the new wave varieties - Sangiovese, Tempranillo, et al Are any of these appearing in NZ?
AB
In regards to Merlot, yes, I concede defeat. I completely forgot about the depth of New Zealand. I can not wait till my birthday when my brother will let me open one of his 98 Coleraines. Plus, "TOM" has to be one of the best looking 'labels' around.
Sparkling, however, surely a rethink??? What in Australia can compare with the complexity and mousse structure of a carefully aged Lindauer Fraise?
Sparkling, however, surely a rethink??? What in Australia can compare with the complexity and mousse structure of a carefully aged Lindauer Fraise?
Never enough Pinot........but now I have found shiraz
Taswegian wrote:In regards to Merlot, yes, I concede defeat. I completely forgot about the depth of New Zealand. I can not wait till my birthday when my brother will let me open one of his 98 Coleraines. Plus, "TOM" has to be one of the best looking 'labels' around.
Sparkling, however, surely a rethink??? What in Australia can compare with the complexity and mousse structure of a carefully aged Lindauer Fraise?
** I had a Seppelt Show Reserve Sparkling Shiraz '87 recently that would kick its a$$
Stuart
I just like that Sauvignon Blanc is classed as a major variety
I actually considered that. But it is major in NZ and I was looking in the context of a nz/aussie average
But to repay the 'license' I took here I also classed Cab Sauv as 'major'. even though 100% cab sav in NZ is almost non existant
Major in one country, minor in another for sake of arguement is major overall.
As for Fraise, I cant argue it is brilliant wine and way better than sparkling shiraz
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
Re: Wine Bledisloe Cup
Having tried to get as great an understanding of what NZ offers wine lovers, particularly during my past visits, here are my thoughts:
Major Varieties:
Chardonnay 3(from Craig's 5) - Amazing stuff is being produced in Australia at great prices. My last few bottles of Aussie stuff (Picardy and Shaw & Smith M3) at around $30 a bottle compare to the NZ greats. And then there is the Giaconda level stuff that NZ does not match. NZ is still in the ripe is great thinking (yes, generalisation)
Riesling 5- Agree with Craig
Sauvignon Blanc 8 (from Craig's 9) - Aussies are getting an understanding of what they can and can't do, and are using French techniques to provide an alternative to NZ, but NZ has examples of everything greater than Australia
Minor Varieties
Semillon 2 - Without Tyrrell's, Mount Pleasant and 5-10 or so Hunter Boutiques, this may be 4.
Gewurztraminer 8(from Craig's 7) - We have little idea
Pinot Gris 8(from Craig's 7) - We have little idea... and if you threw Chenin Blanc into the mix, I would concede a 9.
Red
Major Varieties
Cabernet Sauvignon 2 - Yep
Cabernet and Merlot Blends 4 - Yep
Shiraz/Syrah 3 - Yep
Pinot Noir 5 and if my palate preferences were all that matter, it would be 4 - Playing Devil's Advocate a little bit, NZ Pinot is compensation for its lack of Shiraz. Too big and lacking finesse. Many Australian producers have been trying to emulate Burgundy for years, and have been producing thin crap for these years. But the last 3 years have seen a wave of great Australian Pinot Noir with elegance, length and finesse with real age-worthiness. However, I concede that at the value for money level, NZ is probably still on top.
Minor Varieties
Merlot 9 - Yep. NZ Merlot rocks! (and Malbec... and Cab Franc)
Other:
Sweet Wines 4 - Happy to go 5 here.
Sparkling White Wines 4 0 The only NZ's I have tried are Pelorus and Deutz, and on that showing I would go 3 or 2.
Fortified 1 - yep
Adair
Major Varieties:
Chardonnay 3(from Craig's 5) - Amazing stuff is being produced in Australia at great prices. My last few bottles of Aussie stuff (Picardy and Shaw & Smith M3) at around $30 a bottle compare to the NZ greats. And then there is the Giaconda level stuff that NZ does not match. NZ is still in the ripe is great thinking (yes, generalisation)
Riesling 5- Agree with Craig
Sauvignon Blanc 8 (from Craig's 9) - Aussies are getting an understanding of what they can and can't do, and are using French techniques to provide an alternative to NZ, but NZ has examples of everything greater than Australia
Minor Varieties
Semillon 2 - Without Tyrrell's, Mount Pleasant and 5-10 or so Hunter Boutiques, this may be 4.
Gewurztraminer 8(from Craig's 7) - We have little idea
Pinot Gris 8(from Craig's 7) - We have little idea... and if you threw Chenin Blanc into the mix, I would concede a 9.
Red
Major Varieties
Cabernet Sauvignon 2 - Yep
Cabernet and Merlot Blends 4 - Yep
Shiraz/Syrah 3 - Yep
Pinot Noir 5 and if my palate preferences were all that matter, it would be 4 - Playing Devil's Advocate a little bit, NZ Pinot is compensation for its lack of Shiraz. Too big and lacking finesse. Many Australian producers have been trying to emulate Burgundy for years, and have been producing thin crap for these years. But the last 3 years have seen a wave of great Australian Pinot Noir with elegance, length and finesse with real age-worthiness. However, I concede that at the value for money level, NZ is probably still on top.
Minor Varieties
Merlot 9 - Yep. NZ Merlot rocks! (and Malbec... and Cab Franc)
Other:
Sweet Wines 4 - Happy to go 5 here.
Sparkling White Wines 4 0 The only NZ's I have tried are Pelorus and Deutz, and on that showing I would go 3 or 2.
Fortified 1 - yep
Adair
Wine is bottled poetry.
Adair
Id concede chardonnay to 4. I dont think 3 really would be fair. NZ has some great labels Kumeu River, Elston, neudorf, fromm, felton road, sacred hill riflemans and prob another dozen of nearly that quality. 3 puts it on the same level as syrah we arent that far apart. Also re your comparison many of the nz "greats" arent too much more than $30, many of the aussie "greats are over twice the price.
Id concede Pinot to 6 but not 5. Aussie has some great pinots, but it would be like NZ Cab Merlot vs Aussie Cab Merlot. Just the weight of the flood is to one side
sauvignon blanc 8/9 it all means the same. 8 suits me but I havent seen much evidence outside shaw and smith
sparkling i didnt really think sparkling shiraz when hitting my score together so maybe i should go a 3. nz has some very tidy examples, many hard to get. i couldnt even source a single bottle of my sparkling wine of the year - morton iq7!!
Id take Gewurz and Pinot Gris. Chenin we only make a few too...too minor. Both are getting better in NZ so maybe 8 is a better reflection?
Sweet wine id still happily stay at 4, i think aussie has a slight edge overall though NZ does better riesling based examples. Ive tried some fantastic rutherglen examples. Many kiwi examples are flabby and unbalanced and dont last well.
Id concede chardonnay to 4. I dont think 3 really would be fair. NZ has some great labels Kumeu River, Elston, neudorf, fromm, felton road, sacred hill riflemans and prob another dozen of nearly that quality. 3 puts it on the same level as syrah we arent that far apart. Also re your comparison many of the nz "greats" arent too much more than $30, many of the aussie "greats are over twice the price.
Id concede Pinot to 6 but not 5. Aussie has some great pinots, but it would be like NZ Cab Merlot vs Aussie Cab Merlot. Just the weight of the flood is to one side
sauvignon blanc 8/9 it all means the same. 8 suits me but I havent seen much evidence outside shaw and smith
sparkling i didnt really think sparkling shiraz when hitting my score together so maybe i should go a 3. nz has some very tidy examples, many hard to get. i couldnt even source a single bottle of my sparkling wine of the year - morton iq7!!
Id take Gewurz and Pinot Gris. Chenin we only make a few too...too minor. Both are getting better in NZ so maybe 8 is a better reflection?
Sweet wine id still happily stay at 4, i think aussie has a slight edge overall though NZ does better riesling based examples. Ive tried some fantastic rutherglen examples. Many kiwi examples are flabby and unbalanced and dont last well.
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
Craig(NZ) wrote:sauvignon blanc 8/9 it all means the same. 8 suits me but I havent seen much evidence outside shaw and smith.
There are some decent SBs from margaret from the 07 vintage. Also, where do you put SB/Sem blends? If in this category then I would reduce the 8 to a 7 as we makes some great blends over west.
cheers
Carl
Bartenders are supposed to have people skills. Or was it people are supposed to have bartending skills?
-
Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2761
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Craig - from my perspective, longevity (generally) brings about complexity that just doesn't exist in young rieslings, irrespective of which side of the ditch you live. I personally think that complexity adds significantly to the drinking experience (I like aged Barossa shiraz - 12+ years, Bordeaux 15+ years - for the same reason). If you like you wines young, then my point won't stack up in your eyes. The NZ rieslings I've had just seem simple.
I take your point that you drink wines at their peak, but lets face it, as an analogy, Bin 28, 8 years after release is never going to have the complexity of Grange at 20 years. I guess that's how in my mind, the 2 countries' rieslings compare. (not to say Aussie rieslings are at the quality level of Grange ! The comparison was merely illustrative)
Wizz- as for the 02s, I'm not sure what you're drinking, but the better ones seem very primary to me (Mesh, Grosset x 2, Petaulma). At any rate, in my book, 2002 is very 'young', not aged. I know the 97s turned out to be duds, but there are any number of studs older than that.
Anyway, I'll be in NZ later this year, so I will revisit your rieslings. Craig, can you give me a couple of names you'd recommend please.
Thanks
Mike
I take your point that you drink wines at their peak, but lets face it, as an analogy, Bin 28, 8 years after release is never going to have the complexity of Grange at 20 years. I guess that's how in my mind, the 2 countries' rieslings compare. (not to say Aussie rieslings are at the quality level of Grange ! The comparison was merely illustrative)
Wizz- as for the 02s, I'm not sure what you're drinking, but the better ones seem very primary to me (Mesh, Grosset x 2, Petaulma). At any rate, in my book, 2002 is very 'young', not aged. I know the 97s turned out to be duds, but there are any number of studs older than that.
Anyway, I'll be in NZ later this year, so I will revisit your rieslings. Craig, can you give me a couple of names you'd recommend please.
Thanks
Mike
Mike
It is hard to imagine a riesling experience more sensational than the 2004 Fromm La Strada Riesling I had last night (spatlese). To my mind why would I tie up too much riesling $$ in wines I have to wait 10+ years to gain 'complexity'?? This is even more the case with riesling which to me is an every week drinking experience. If I drink riesling every week and want a 10 year average cellar time I have to invest in 500 bottles. However if I can fill most of my riesling cellar with wines that drink sensationally after 2 years, I only need 100 bottles.
Your argument however is totally valid and I am not dismissing it (I have 02 petaluma which I will drink when im 90 probably), but the point I was trying to make is that peoples blind belief in the "must cellar 10+ to be great", and to a greater extent wineries blind marketing. eg "This wine will cellar for 10 years" as a pitch that is supposed to automatically highlight quality.
It never sticks with me. There are plenty of wines that technically will last a very long time without improving (instead just changing) and im just not on the train with the concept that a wine that doesnt happily pass the 5 year mark cannot be a 'great' wine.
As for suggestions, the Waipara region has many germanic styled wines popping up which I am just loving, also a few from other regions.
Off the top of my head, and by no means a complete list look out for:
Fromm La Strada Spatlese (I rate this as probably my favourite NZ riesling)
Pegasus Bay (The 07 soon to be released is supposed to be sensational)
Pegasus Bay Aria (06) Sweeter style
Neudorf Moutere
Peregrine Charcoal Creek
Pyramid Valley
Amisfield Rocky Knoll
Felton Road
Dry River
Martinborough Vineyard Manu
Forrest Estate Doctor (top cheap riesling)
John Forrest Collection
Also more 'commercially' styled but still good wines..
Palliser
Villa Maria Reserve
Camshorn Classic 07
Framingham Classic
Mt Difficulty
C
It is hard to imagine a riesling experience more sensational than the 2004 Fromm La Strada Riesling I had last night (spatlese). To my mind why would I tie up too much riesling $$ in wines I have to wait 10+ years to gain 'complexity'?? This is even more the case with riesling which to me is an every week drinking experience. If I drink riesling every week and want a 10 year average cellar time I have to invest in 500 bottles. However if I can fill most of my riesling cellar with wines that drink sensationally after 2 years, I only need 100 bottles.
Your argument however is totally valid and I am not dismissing it (I have 02 petaluma which I will drink when im 90 probably), but the point I was trying to make is that peoples blind belief in the "must cellar 10+ to be great", and to a greater extent wineries blind marketing. eg "This wine will cellar for 10 years" as a pitch that is supposed to automatically highlight quality.
It never sticks with me. There are plenty of wines that technically will last a very long time without improving (instead just changing) and im just not on the train with the concept that a wine that doesnt happily pass the 5 year mark cannot be a 'great' wine.
As for suggestions, the Waipara region has many germanic styled wines popping up which I am just loving, also a few from other regions.
Off the top of my head, and by no means a complete list look out for:
Fromm La Strada Spatlese (I rate this as probably my favourite NZ riesling)
Pegasus Bay (The 07 soon to be released is supposed to be sensational)
Pegasus Bay Aria (06) Sweeter style
Neudorf Moutere
Peregrine Charcoal Creek
Pyramid Valley
Amisfield Rocky Knoll
Felton Road
Dry River
Martinborough Vineyard Manu
Forrest Estate Doctor (top cheap riesling)
John Forrest Collection
Also more 'commercially' styled but still good wines..
Palliser
Villa Maria Reserve
Camshorn Classic 07
Framingham Classic
Mt Difficulty
C
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
