The Auswine Forum

Okay, I raised a stinkbomb of an argument earlier without even meaning to. Here's what I'm going to do.

I am going to convince our restaurant owners that BYO should be an option, and I'll argue it at a price point roughly $50/btl corkage. When we're locked in for that, I'll keep a log/journal of what happens and I'll post regular updates.

I'm keen to see how Brisbane reacts. Our restaurant is very busy, but I get the general opinion that most people on here think that we're restricting business (especially business of the higher-end market) by not offering BYO. I trust your opinions and I want the business owners (and guests!) to benefit from any improvement, and so on.

So, what I want from you all is an idea of what you would pay IN BRISBANE for corkage of a reasonable quality wine (not commercial, volume-driven rubbish wines) in a restaurant where absolutely everything is looked after, even proper decanting etc by professional wine staff. I'd also like to know if you've encountered problems with BYO corkage and what those problems were, so we can attempt to avoid them.

This could get interesting...

Well I'd happily pay $20 per bottle corkage.

$50? Maybe not, not unless I really wanted to go to the restaurant. It certainly seems a bit steep in comparison to Restaurant II, e'cco, Cinco and Rapide, though to be honest I don't even know what they charge, but I would guess closer to $10 pb

Out of interest, how do you set the prices for your wine list?

$20 per btl max. would I get a discount for screw cap?

Dan, if your going to charge $50 for a wine service charge, lets get this straight it is not corkage, then you should stick to fully licensed non BYO service.

Now, I'm a business owner too, and a resonable person, and if you are servicing a customer I agree, a profit should be made.

BUT

All you are offering is a service which lasts no longer than a few minutes in total? Max 10 minutes..

How much is the avergae waitor paid? $20 per hour? Any trained waitor can properly decant and pour a glass of wine. And how many bottles can one waitor service in an hour? 10 ? More for screws I'd say.

I'm aware there are fixed costs. electricity, blah blah blah. But thats negligible for a fwe glasses and a bottle of wine.

The $50 charge sounds more like a scheme to collect the opportunity cost of selling the wine at the bar, so thats what you should do, because customers are already aware they are paying through the nose at bar prices for wine.

I wouldnt goto to a restarant that charged $50 for screwage.

This is a fight that neither side will win, there are far too many pro's and con's on both sides.

In my experience, generally speaking, restaurants don't encourage BYO. Some people use the argument that they are wine lovers and they have their own cellars so they should be able to bring their own wine. I think that's fine, however, be prepared to pay a price.
Not too sure about $50

I would think most Adelaide restaurants are charging around $10 - $20 per bottle, and that is most likely to be the profit they are not getting off their cheapest bottle of wine they sell. To me this seems to be the fairest way of doing things. If this system is in place in Brisbane then they have a far greater mark up than us in Adelaide, i say again $50

If you are a person that has a great passion for your personal cache of wine, develop a relationship with your favorite Restaurant and good things will come from that. Consumer's dont wont to feel like they have been taken advantage of, and, neither does the restaurant industry.

Good on Daniel for putting up his hand on such a touchy subject, he raises great points and is obviously a great leader in his field. I think the only other issue that would be more tenuous in the restaurant game would be "TIPS", im sure you know what i mean Dan

How is tipping an issue? In Australia anyway, it is not customary to tip, and consumers should not feel they have to. Dont get my wrong, if I get quality service etc. I'll leave a small tip etc. Theres always one small place I goto, I always leave a 10% tip, because its a great place, and his prices are cheap to begin with and he doesnt charge for corkage, let alone $50.

$10-$15 is normally the average corkage here in Canada. The restaurants I am involved with are high-end and we would never think of charging more than that. Its all good PR as far as I am concerned, I do however think the server should get a good tip, decanting etc.
Over here, no service charge is added to the bill unless a party of say 20 or more. Only the federal GST which is now 5%.

Paullie wrote:How is tipping an issue? In Australia anyway, it is not customary to tip, and consumers should not feel they have to. Dont get my wrong, if I get quality service etc. I'll leave a small tip etc. Theres always one small place I goto, I always leave a 10% tip, because its a great place, and his prices are cheap to begin with and he doesnt charge for corkage, let alone $50.

Talking more about the internal politics with the tip issue. It is and issue that comes up from time to time that Chefs and Waiters can't agree on. Chefs think they should be cut in and Waiters think tips are all for them.

I dont think there is any need to tip in Australia, our hospitality staff enjoy a good level of income. In countries where it is more common to contribute to the staff gratuitie fund, it is insisted on because wages are so low and they need it to pay the rent!.

A Waiter will tell you that "tipping" will ensure good service. This doesnt make any sense to me, the tip is done at the end of the night, not at the start.

A 10% tip is very kind, but do you tip your barber if he does a really good hair cut?. Good service should be expected from all industries.

I see what you mean.

Thanks for reminding me I need a haircut.

$50 corkage is more than many of Sydney's top restaurants charge. At $50 a bottle to my way of thinking its gouging and when I found out it was $50 I would never book there.

Just adding to the discussion, should the 'service charge' be levied per bottle or per person?

$50 per bottle is stretching things IMO but $50 (minimum) for a number of bottles, for say four people would be more than reasonable, provided stemware use is not overly excessive, with the service charge increasing incrementally depending on numbers, etc. Gets more complicated the further one delves into this.

I wouldn't baulk at $50/bottle for a special occasion but at that cost expect full service/decanting and proper stemware!!!

TORB wrote:$50 corkage is more than many of Sydney's top restaurants charge. At $50 a bottle to my way of thinking its gouging and when I found out it was $50 I would never book there.

** But would you ever book at a restaurant that didn't allow BYO at all?

If so, your position is contradictory, IMO.

Stuart

I'm not a wealthy man, and I don't drink Grange, HoG, or expensive Frenchies. If I did, I would no doubt be willing to pay $50 corkage for those wines. With one caveat: the food has to merit the drinking of such wines. For me to drink my very best wines at a restaurant, it has to offer the very best food. Better than I could get anywhere else. I don't know if your restaurant does that.

I only buy wines up to $50/bottle max. As such, I would never pay more than $20 corkage.

Also, you have some stiff competition from other restaurants which charge $10-$15 per bottle. Their names have been mentioned elsewhere. You should certainly take this into consideration.

Finally, if you introduce a very high (relative to other restaurants) corkage charge, you want to manage/market it all very carefully. Otherwise customers could see you as gouging them.

Stuart

Daniel I think theres a fundamental issue here - with a starting position that there will be no BYO at your restaurant for whatever reason, and now saying a trial is on the cards - for an arbitrary fee that is so high it cannot be taken seriously - you shouldn't have expectations of any outcome other than a nil BYO takeup rate. Nothing will be proven, except maybe some false self satisfaction that you were right in the first place.

if you enter this arena you are competing with e'cco, Two Small Rooms, Isis, Rapide, White Rabbit, Cinco, who do BYO for something reasonable and serve brilliant food. Even if your food is as good as the best of these, you are out of the market. The (very knowledgeable) group I eat and drink quality wine with will not grace your tables with grand cru burgundies in hand at that price when we have so many other choices.

This might sound unkind and I apologise for that, but I think a reality check is needed here.

beef wrote:

TORB wrote:$50 corkage is more than many of Sydney's top restaurants charge. At $50 a bottle to my way of thinking its gouging and when I found out it was $50 I would never book there.

** But would you ever book at a restaurant that didn't allow BYO at all?

If so, your position is contradictory, IMO.

Stuart

Stuart,

I try and avoid them but sometimes do go to places that don't allow BYO. If the list is good and the wines reasonably priced, I will buy from the list but a 150%+ mark up for ordinary wine will get me drinking water. The reality is they often lose financially as in most cases I decide to have an AFD.

Wizz wrote:Daniel I think theres a fundamental issue here - with a starting position that there will be no BYO at your restaurant for whatever reason, and now saying a trial is on the cards - for an arbitrary fee that is so high it cannot be taken seriously - you shouldn't have expectations of any outcome other than a nil BYO takeup rate. Nothing will be proven, except maybe some false self satisfaction that you were right in the first place.

if you enter this arena you are competing with e'cco, Two Small Rooms, Isis, Rapide, White Rabbit, Cinco, who do BYO for something reasonable and serve brilliant food. Even if your food is as good as the best of these, you are out of the market. The (very knowledgeable) group I eat and drink quality wine with will not grace your tables with grand cru burgundies in hand at that price when we have so many other choices.

This might sound unkind and I apologise for that, but I think a reality check is needed here.

You don't need to be knowledgeable about wine to know $50 corkage is a rip off.

Indeed, I balk at anything much over $20 these days. $50 a ridiculous leap, at least by SA standards.

When i was living in Tas there was a restaurant that DIDN'T want people to byo, so charged $100 per bottle to discourage it.

$50 would do the same thing, for me at least. Even Auge (at the expensive end of the scale, restaurant-wise) i think charges $15 only.

I'd say that $20 would be my limit, but them i can't say i can think of anywhere in adelaide that would push me beyond that, even at the very top end of the scale.

WOW !! What a can of worms , btw, i'm a long time lurker!!

$50 is obviously too much.

I cant work out what Dan is trying to acheive by doing this. For a start he does not own the establishment, so what business is it of his to open someone else's venture to such a bashing.

If it were my Restaurant i would be looking to tear a new @$%# into my Manager.

$50 is extreme but after looking at the mark up on the wine from the restaurants website, it does put it into perspective. The mark up is as extreme as the proposed corkage charge.

"d'arenberg Original" $59.80 per bottle, forgive me but where i come from that wine is about $20 -$25 in bottle shops, that would make it, $15 Wholesale. Profit is certainly not a dirty word, but come on.


It begs the question..... Is this a Tourist Trap Restaurant?

nick, welcome to the discussion. Don't even go there about wine prices in restaurants. $65 for an Amy's Moss Wood, pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaaseee.

Lots of great advise from the board, but ask your customers today what they think and if they are seeking BYO. Are your customers happy today and are you happy with the level of business?? I think you had the right stance in the first place, you are either a byo or not. Lots of options for people out there today for those that seek byo and those that don’t.

My personal opinion is that if a restaurant advertises $50 corkage I would avoid them just on that, they are taking the piss out of people, so why bother with them. That’s the perception at least even if it is not the reality or intention.

cheers gerry

nick.mccarr wrote:$50 is extreme but after looking at the mark up on the wine from the restaurants website, it does put it into perspective. The mark up is as extreme as the proposed corkage charge.

"d'arenberg Original" $59.80 per bottle, forgive me but where i come from that wine is about $20 -$25 in bottle shops, that would make it, $15 Wholesale. Profit is certainly not a dirty word, but come on.

It begs the question..... Is this a Tourist Trap Restaurant?

These sort of mark ups seem to be stock standard practice at restaurants, and does seem to make wine 'elitist'. Especially after everything the wine industry does to make it approachable and 'everyday'.

It was the 2002 Rosé at $60 that made me do a double take.

I'd almost feel better paying $50 BYO (i'd be expecting nothing less than appropriate Riedel and changed for each bottle) than paying a rapacious $40 mark up on a wine that lands under $15 - DÁrry original.
$30 would be the upper limit and a fair margin.
GW

I would think a $50 corkage fee would drive away BYO business in any country, let alone Brisbane.

Most of the restaurants I have visited in the recent past here in California have a $25/bottle corkage fee and some will state that you can only BYO if the wine is not on their list. I find this reasonable because it does make me look carefully at what wine(s) I may want to take. But there are exceptions. A group of us went to a restaurant toward the end of last year where the corkage was as described above, however the person who made the booking is very well known to the restaurant and so the corkage fee was waived. Good thing too because we had them open 6 bottles. We did share the wine with the staff, including letting them have unfinished bottles.

If I was going to test the success of BYO in a restaurant I would look at the wine list and figure out the price range where most of my sales were coming from. From a couple of previous posts it seems that the mark-up at the restaurant might be between 2-3 fold over retail; let’s say its 2 for convenience. If most of the wine being bought by restaurant diners is in the $50-60 range then a $25-30 corkage fee may not seem unreasonable for BYO wines not on the wine list. I believe most knowledgeable people will look at a wine list (in a BYO restaurant) and make a judgment about bringing a bottle based on retail plus corkage. I’m not sure that wholesale price should be used to make the calculation because most diners won’t think like that even though the restaurant may. Besides if the wine list is a good one then they are losing the wholesale-retail cost difference only on wines they don’t have. More important is the fact that customers may offer the sommelier/wine captain (whatever you want to call them) a taste of the wine. That is one way that wine lists can grow and improve because I seriously doubt that there is a sommelier/wine captain who has tasted everything.

Mike

Good to see those little wineries such as Yalumba and Wynns featuring on the Boutique Wines list.

I once paid $50+ corkage at the Sofitel in melbourne, there was a lesser vintage of the wine I took (1986 Tahbilk 1860 vines) on the wine list for $180+, so i figured I got a reasonable deal and it was professionally decanted and presented in good glasses. We also had lovely night-time views over Melbourne from our window table on the 35th floor and some very good food and impeccable service.

It would have to be a pretty special occasion and restaurant to make me pay more than $20//bottle for corkage, especially as I'm likely to have double-decanted the wine before arriving.

If Claudes, Marque and Tetsuya in Sydney can do it for under $20 I can't see how $50 can be considered reasonable or a serious offer to allow byo.

Wowchamamma

Daniel, you have indeed opened a nasty can of worms...

Firstly, I applaud you for bravely bringing this suggestion to discuss. I also believe that there are not nearly enough BYO restaurants in any Australian city. When wifey and I go out to dine, we most commonly seek out BYO places, and even at non-BYO places, kindly ask if the "special bottle" is allowed. Admittedly, if BYO is disallowed, we generally kindly say thank you, and seek out another restaurant. I guess the basis of this is that we have more than enough wine in our cellar from back vintages to enjoy at any price point and for any occassion, that it seems foolish for us to drink something off the wine list at 2-4x the cost, especially as others have said, more than likely would be the current vintage drinking way too early.

Thus, we are more than happy to pay almost any BYO service fee.

I for one DO NOT think a $50 corkage per bottle is too extravagant. However, this does depend on the type of restaurant and food they serve!!! For example, this corkage rate at any three hatted establishment in Sydney or Melbourne I believe is acceptable. If the restaurant serves fine food, has excellent service, and great ambience/views, it will more than likely have a 3-4x mark-up on wines compared to retail. As such, we commonly see a Lakes Folley cabernet on the list for example for $150-180, or a Cullen DM for $190-300, and this is for the current vintage!!! Now, I put it to those out there who bauk at the $50 fee for corkage- are we not a whole heap better off taking a 95 Cullen (costing us 120 per bottle, and for some lucky ones $40-50 on release ) and paying the corkage?- I dunno, you do the math...

For other restaurants, not quite up there in the upper echelons of the dining scene, a lower cost for corkage of course, but again, I am not advocating take-away style thai restaurant corkage of $2-5 per bottle, but maybe $20-30...

I guess what I am trying to say in my somewhat long-winded rant is that I agree that restaurants are there to make money, and if they are not, then they shouldn't be open. So as part of their revenue, drinks play a big part, but for us wine geeks, it is frustrating we can't imbibe in something we would get excited about over dinner. If we want that "right", I suggest we should have to renumerate the restaurant appropriately, and I believe that it should be somewhere in the range of their normal mark-ups...

In this way, it would discourage customers for example, bringing a wynns shiraz to dinner at a fine diner if the corkage was $20-30.

I WOULD LOVE MORE BYO PLACES, ESPECIALLY IN THE CBD, AND I WOULD BE HAPPY TO PAY FOR IT!!!!!

Ps- Daniel, I have not dined at Tukka in Brisbane, but judging from your website, I believe a corkage of about $20-30 per bottle for your establishment would be more appropriate...

Cheers,

Monghead.

As a Brisbanite, corkage should be per person drinking (not per bottle), and $20 maximum. I think it would be reasonable to state "Only wines not on our winelist". Hope you have great food.

Michael

"Only wines not on our winelist".

Good point Michael, I agree with this.

If Claudes, Marque and Tetsuya in Sydney can do it for under $20 I can't see how $50 can be considered reasonable or a serious offer to allow byo.

Great point RB, and I wish all restaurants can take this as an example. However, I guess these restaurants are in an enviable position where their reputations are secure, wait lists esist for bookings more nights than not, and their profits from their food healthy. Essentially, they don't have to charge the higher corkage to avoid the red line. Others may have to though, as they are running a business...

Cheers,

Monghead.

monghead wrote:Wowchamamma

are we not a whole heap better off taking a 95 Cullen (costing us 120 per bottle, and for some lucky ones $40-50 on release ) and paying the corkage?- I dunno, you do the math...

Cheers,

Monghead.

If every BYO diner was to show up with wine at the calibre of this i dont think there would be much resistence to BYO form the industry. Passionate wine people would probably even want to share some of their wine the staff of an establishment. The truth is, is that these occaisions are pretty few and far between.

Imagine you are restaurant owner, you employ a Wine Waiter/Sommelier and commit substantial sums of money to your beverage budget. You train your staff on how to pour, decant, describe and appreciate the wine that has been judiciously selected for your wine list. Then people arrive at your restaurant with Queen Adelaide Chardonnay, Hardy's RR or even Cleanskins!!.

It puts this quote in a differant context...

"Only wines not on our winelist"

BYO'ing cheap wine into a restaurant is nothing but "penny pinching" and unfortunatly the people out there with better taste are being tarred with the same brush. It is sought of like the bloke that turns up to a party with a six pack of Home Brew Beer, throws it in the communal esky and drinks Crown Lager for the rest of the night.