The Auswine Forum

Some friends have advised that licensed restaurants must provide a BYO service upon request albeit they might have a high charge... is this correct?

What are the laws (especially in SA) in relation to BYO at licensed restaurants? must they provide a BYO service upon request?

THX in advance

In New South Wales this is not the case. It is the restaurants choice to allow BYO or not.

I went to the Red Herring in Perth and the were licensed and the had a 40 dollar a bottle corkage, so we took a couple great bottles to even up the cost 99 rwt penfolds and a 98 Greenock creek Creek block ,I dont know if there they have to in w.a , does any one know

In QLD we don't have to provide BYO if a licensed venue. Personally, I don't make exceptions for any customers.. all customers are important and deserve equal treatment. I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests - and it infuriates me when certain guests (and there have been many in my time) try to weasel their way into your 'good book' so they can have their special wine. It's a sensitive subject for anyone in the industry because we're responsible for making our business owners money! BYO services just simply don't meet the required margins for fine dining restaurants. If that wasn't the case, then I'd love to see all restaurants open BYO as an option for consumers, because when I dine out <b>I too</b> like to take my own special wines. So, you can see the two sides of the same person's opinion, if that makes sense.

Daniel Jess wrote:In QLD we don't have to provide BYO if a licensed venue. Personally, I don't make exceptions for any customers.. all customers are important and deserve equal treatment. I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests - and it infuriates me when certain guests (and there have been many in my time) try to weasel their way into your 'good book' so they can have their special wine. It's a sensitive subject for anyone in the industry because we're responsible for making our business owners money! BYO services just simply don't meet the required margins for fine dining restaurants. If that wasn't the case, then I'd love to see all restaurants open BYO as an option for consumers, because when I dine out <b>I too</b> like to take my own special wines. So, you can see the two sides of the same person's opinion, if that makes sense.

** I simply don't understand this. If your restaurant actually provides "fine dining" (I've never been there), then aren't you more likely to attract wealthier wine-loving customers? And aren't they more likely to bring the best wines from their cellars? If so, why not allow BYO but charge $50 per bottle or something? For a special bottle, that amount should be acceptable to the consumer. And it gives the restaurant an extra yellow note at the end of the meal. That way, you can rip off (through restaurant-scale mark-ups) the customers who don't truly appreciate wine, but want something to drink with their meal. But at the same time, you can attract wine-loving customers who would otherwise shun your establishment in favour of one that allows BYO (and make a profit from them besides). It's not like you don't have competition. There are several excellent fine-dining BYO restaurants in Brisbane.

As a wine lover, I dislike any restaurant that doesn't allow BYO. In fact, there are only two that I will visit: Watt and Montrachet. Watt, because I proposed to my wife there. And Montrachet because it has the best food in Brisbane.

If your food is better than that of Montrachet, I might come visit. If not, I'll stick with E'cco, Isis, 2 Small Rooms, Rapide, etc.

Just my $0.02, as a member of the restaurant-going public.

Stuart

Daniel Jess wrote:In QLD we don't have to provide BYO if a licensed venue. Personally, I don't make exceptions for any customers.. all customers are important and deserve equal treatment. I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests - and it infuriates me when certain guests (and there have been many in my time) try to weasel their way into your 'good book' so they can have their special wine. It's a sensitive subject for anyone in the industry because we're responsible for making our business owners money! BYO services just simply don't meet the required margins for fine dining restaurants. If that wasn't the case, then I'd love to see all restaurants open BYO as an option for consumers, because when I dine out <b>I too</b> like to take my own special wines. So, you can see the two sides of the same person's opinion, if that makes sense.

I Have a son who is now 17 and we have a collection of 1990's to celebrate this accasion , Do you honestly believe that we as consumers dont deserve the option of opening our own wine for something special , I have never had a problem paying extra corkage ,

If so, why not allow BYO but charge $50 per bottle or something?

I certainly understand where you're coming from. What you've suggested is a solution, but one that only resolves the situation for those who are already willing to spend $50 on a bottle of wine to begin with. This is something we trialled at a previous restaurant where I was sommelier and it simply didn't work.

The point I was trying to get across is that if a restaurant is not BYO, it isn't unworthy.

In this case, if you see cheap, low quality wines in a cellar, then it is my opinion that that venue should offer BYO to cater for those who have a more refined taste.

For the record, I visit BYO restaurants regularly for exactly the same reason you do - to celebrate over a special bottle.

Do you honestly believe that we as consumers dont deserve the option of opening our own wine for something special

Of course not! That's taking what I said to extremes. But not every venue will offer BYO. What I am saying, however, is that if a restaurant states it's not BYO, then BYO is not an option at that venue.

Daniel Jess wrote:In QLD we don't have to provide BYO if a licensed venue. Personally, I don't make exceptions for any customers.. all customers are important and deserve equal treatment. I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests - and it infuriates me when certain guests (and there have been many in my time) try to weasel their way into your 'good book' so they can have their special wine. It's a sensitive subject for anyone in the industry because we're responsible for making our business owners money! BYO services just simply don't meet the required margins for fine dining restaurants. If that wasn't the case, then I'd love to see all restaurants open BYO as an option for consumers, because when I dine out <b>I too</b> like to take my own special wines. So, you can see the two sides of the same person's opinion, if that makes sense.

I agree that all deserve equal treatment.

However, I disagree with the 'business owners' view on byo.

I cannot see how a restaurant could lose by offering byo together with the restaurant wine list. Just ensure the byo charge is enough to ensure you stay in business. Your client's can decide for themselves if they want to buy from the wine list or pay the byo charge.

Problem is that some good restaurants have average wine lists with the more expensive wines always being the most recent winery release (and more often then not the restaurant could pick up older vintages of the same wine at the same or lesser prices from Langtons). So I look at the wine list and see bugger all I like (and I'm not prepared to spend $500 on a 2002 Grange or $400 on a 2004 RungRig, far too young to drink at that price) so end up buying some crap for $50, whereas I would have paid $50- byo charge to bring my own special bottle.... so in my opinion the restaurant loses out.

The majority of people who are not prepared to pay the $50- byo charge would still buy from the wine list (or not), thus the byo charge option would not affect the majority of people thus the restaurant would not lose!

The argument that BYO does not meet the required margins is completely flawed. In actual fact the margin that you make on your average wine is what would be a perfectly sound business model for corkage. If you took into account the costs of storing the wine and getting replacements for corked wines, then it is a better deal for the restaurant.
Dave

Daniel Jess wrote:

If so, why not allow BYO but charge $50 per bottle or something?

I certainly understand where you're coming from. What you've suggested is a solution, but one that only resolves the situation for those who are already willing to spend $50 on a bottle of wine to begin with. This is something we trialled at a previous restaurant where I was sommelier and it simply didn't work.

** Why not? The very worst that could happen is that few customers would actually use the $50 BYO service. No loss to the restaurant, and probably a slight gain (through those few customers who do use the service, and who would otherwise have dined elsewhere).

Stuart

Daniel Jess wrote:I I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests.

It would get pretty hot and uncomfortable in Brisbane wearing an animal suit but if that is what the customer wants..
GW

I I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests.

welcome to business. thats what it is all about, making customers happy while making a buck at the same time. 'pandering' can in fact be cost efficient. it costs less to retain a current customer than it costs to attract a new one.

look at the corporate world and all the $$ they spend on entertaining customers, taking them to rugby, dinners, concerts......

Realise, like they have, that relationships ARE business. The "us and them" attitude I read between the lines in your original post seems to be the root cause of any "failure" of you experiment, not the idea per se

Daniel Jess wrote: BYO services just simply don't meet the required margins for fine dining restaurants. If that wasn't the case, then I'd love to see all restaurants open BYO as an option for consumers, because when I dine out <b>I too</b> like to take my own special wines. So, you can see the two sides of the same person's opinion, if that makes sense.

I don't understand this at all. A table bringing 4 bottles and paying $20 each corkage will ruin the economics of the business, but a table of 6 people drinking 3 x tap water, 1 x beer, 1 x coke and 1 x orange juice is just dandy?

If restaurants cut their rapacious margins on bottled wine, many of them would sell so much more wine that they wouldn't believe it. But the industry seems fixated on margins. They'd rather sell one bottle for $100 (at say 200% markup) than 6 bottles of something at $40 where they're only making 100% markup. Why? Because if you don't make 200% on wine then it's not a viable business. Never mind the profit of $66 vs profit of $120...

Repeat after me - you can't bank percentages...

Graeme

I don't understand this at all. A table bringing 4 bottles and paying $20 each corkage will ruin the economics of the business, but a table of 6 people drinking 3 x tap water, 1 x beer, 1 x coke and 1 x orange juice is just dandy?

If restaurants cut their rapacious margins on bottled wine, many of them would sell so much more wine that they wouldn't believe it. But the industry seems fixated on margins. They'd rather sell one bottle for $100 (at say 200% markup) than 6 bottles of something at $40 where they're only making 100% markup. Why? Because if you don't make 200% on wine then it's not a viable business. Never mind the profit of $66 vs profit of $120...

Repeat after me - you can't bank percentages...

Graeme

couldnt have said it better.

i did see in melbourne once what i thought was a good compromise. You could BYO wine of a certain age. I think it was 10 years which is a little extreme but the idea had merit I think. Cuts out the 'pop next door for a $12 special' budgo people out of the game but keeps those who have saved something special for a special occassion in the game.

Not perfect perhaps but definitely an idea

I have the answer to all your woes about the BYO debate .
Through the years as we took a bottle of wine to a restaurant , we were charged ' corkage' ! Its no longer relevant for restaurants to charge corkage for BYO , now that we have almost compleatly changed over to the stelvin screwcap !
They can now call it ' screwage ' because that is what it really has been all along, just disguised as another name !!!!

I have absolutley no problem Paying corkage, Only when the restaurant does it to profiteer from it and claims its used only as a deterent If the corkage or Screwage is alot then we take a more expensive bottle along and keep one in the bag to top up

Daniel Jess wrote:In QLD we don't have to provide BYO if a licensed venue. Personally, I don't make exceptions for any customers.. all customers are important and deserve equal treatment. I don't understand restaurant managers that "panda" to certain guests - and it infuriates me when certain guests (and there have been many in my time) try to weasel their way into your 'good book' so they can have their special wine. It's a sensitive subject for anyone in the industry because we're responsible for making our business owners money! BYO services just simply don't meet the required margins for fine dining restaurants. If that wasn't the case, then I'd love to see all restaurants open BYO as an option for consumers, because when I dine out <b>I too</b> like to take my own special wines. So, you can see the two sides of the same person's opinion, if that makes sense.

Glad you don't "Panda" to anyone.... Just admit that you'd rather charge some poor sucker $75 for a bottle of wine that you purchase wholesale for $25 and move on.....

paulsa wrote:
I agree that all deserve equal treatment.

However, I disagree with the 'business owners' view on byo.

I cannot see how a restaurant could lose by offering byo together with the restaurant wine list. Just ensure the byo charge is enough to ensure you stay in business. Your client's can decide for themselves if they want to buy from the wine list or pay the byo charge.

Problem is that some good restaurants have average wine lists with the more expensive wines always being the most recent winery release (and more often then not the restaurant could pick up older vintages of the same wine at the same or lesser prices from Langtons). So I look at the wine list and see bugger all I like (and I'm not prepared to spend $500 on a 2002 Grange or $400 on a 2004 RungRig, far too young to drink at that price) so end up buying some crap for $50, whereas I would have paid $50- byo charge to bring my own special bottle.... so in my opinion the restaurant loses out.

The majority of people who are not prepared to pay the $50- byo charge would still buy from the wine list (or not), thus the byo charge option would not affect the majority of people thus the restaurant would not lose!

I find that the most fascinating part of restaurant wines. They'll charge you $90 for a $45 bottle, and $350 for a $300 bottle. I suppose we shoudl be grateful that they aren't spplying the same percentage across the board!!

Craig
Sadly many (at least over here) do indeed apply a flat % across the board.

regards

Ian

Daniel, I went to the most awarded local resturant a few months ago. It's not byo but after looking at the wine list, perhaps it should be. I wouldn't mind paying $10-$15 corkage for a $40 wine. I think it was a St Helga riesling I settled for but the list was, for me, effing ordinary. Stuff your margins for the swill most restaurants offer, what about repeat custom?

Edit: Is your restaurant's food REALLY that good? Jacobs Creek Reserves for $35? Pfffft!

Graeme's point sums it up for me.

I've been to the odd restaurant that has had a crap wine list or the mark ups are just so big that I refuse to be ripped off so rather than going through perhaps 2 bottles I go for a beer and a wine by the glass. I still enjoy my meal, most times I go to a restaurant for the food primarily, I consider good wine at a fair price a lucky bonus when eating out, not a must have.

The restaurant misses out on maybe an extra $50 (say $25 a bottle) just to maintain their margins?

I can understand a $20 markup on a $20 wine because you have to cover the cost of glassware etc but not a $80 markup on a $80 wine. I just won't buy it. Maybe there are enough people out there who will so they don't need my business?

I reckon the best BYO plan would be $40 for the first bottle and $20 for subsequent ones. The only rerstaurants who should refuse BYO by arrangement are those with top notch winelists with vintage wines properly cellared and a good international list of back vintages as well.